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Thread: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    What's the reason they made that trade?

    B/c they already had paid Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka. Their ownership wasn't willing to go deep into LT Land. Sound familiar?
    I don't think trading Harding has had much effect on OKC. They finished the next year with the top seed in the West then Westbrook had his knee blown out in the first round of the playoffs. The year after that they finished second to San Antonio then lost to San Antonio in the playoffs, and that San Antonio team was damn good. Also, I think Harden is an over-rated blowhard who plays no defense.
    Danger Zone

  2. #102

    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    Yes.

    Too many ifs for a team to really be an title contender. If Roy figures things out. If Hill plays aggressive. If guys can play at a consistently high level (and be more consistently good).

    Ultimately, I just don't think Vogel can get it done. Just haven't seen much growth from him as a coach. His offense is a nightmare and still hasn't brought in someone that can take that portion over. He doesn't utilize bench/role players well. Can see that by every bench player he has seems to have a career low in performance. I do think Watson has been pretty steady though. The team just continues to make the same mistakes over and over, most likely due to a poor offensive scheme. And the 1 thing they were great at they completely fell apart on the last half of the season and into the playoffs and that was the #1 defense.

    I thanked the 2nd part of your post. I believe it has to be the most important aspect of this team going forward. It is imperative that Vogel gets it figured out!!!! No ifs, ands, nor buts about it. AND Bird had best stay on top of it!

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. The numbers are there and I'm not even going to highlight how bad we were against the .500+ competition after the all star break. The Clippers and Thunder both would have trashed us, I can't even find a place to begin debating with someone who disagrees with that. I hope the East gets stronger, and I hope we get a LOT stronger. We have a lot of improving to do before we are serious contenders.

  4. #104

    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Pacers were not going to win the championship in 2013. They only won 49 games that season. tell me the last championship team that won that few in a normal length season.
    We got off to an awful start, and we were a 50+ win caliber team that year.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    We got off to an awful start, and we were a 50+ win caliber team that year.
    And yet we still didn't win 50 games. Every team goes through rough stretches, and ours just happened to be the first 10 games of the year.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. The numbers are there and I'm not even going to highlight how bad we were against the .500+ competition after the all star break. The Clippers and Thunder both would have trashed us, I can't even find a place to begin debating with someone who disagrees with that. I hope the East gets stronger, and I hope we get a LOT stronger. We have a lot of improving to do before we are serious contenders.
    You are wrong....we would have beaten both the clippers and the thunder in the NBA finals. Those teams are deeply flawed unlike the Spurs. Thunder rely too much on Durant at the beginning of the game, and then don't get him the ball in key moments in crunch time. The Clippers....they don't play real defense, and they gun for the home run plays too much. Thats why their half court offense struggles.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    You are wrong....we would have beaten both the clippers and the thunder in the NBA finals. Those teams are deeply flawed unlike the Spurs. Thunder rely too much on Durant at the beginning of the game, and then don't get him the ball in key moments in crunch time. The Clippers....they don't play real defense, and they gun for the home run plays too much. Thats why their half court offense struggles.
    http://xkcd.com/386/

    Seriously though, if that's the reality to you, more power to you. I think you could not be more wrong, but neither of us have a provable position. I've stated my case, but if people want to believe we were the 3rd or 4th best team in basketball, even after the collapse and barely beating the Hawks and so on. Well. Some people believe in Santa too, and who I am to ruin their joy.

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  9. #108
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    http://xkcd.com/386/

    Seriously though, if that's the reality to you, more power to you. I think you could not be more wrong, but neither of us have a provable position. I've stated my case, but if people want to believe we were the 3rd or 4th best team in basketball, even after the collapse and barely beating the Hawks and so on. Well. Some people believe in Santa too, and who I am to ruin their joy.
    Playoffs are all about match ups. I think we match up incredibly well against both those team. EVEN TODAY with no Lance.

    Atlanta was a tough match up because they pulled our bigs out too far. However if All Horford was playing we would have destroyed them. Because Horford only shoots from just outside the FT line. That would have sealed alot of their driving lanes for Teague. Just like we sealed off the lane in the Wizard's series, they didnt' have a big who could nail the outside shot.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 07-25-2014 at 04:13 PM.
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  11. #109
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    I don't think OKC was a good analogy either. It's not like we had 3 max-contract players that are all ball dominant. They had a very serious case of not-enough-ball-to-go-around. They also had 2 other max-guys that still had room to grow, so it was easy to replace the production of Harden with internal players.

    I believe if you are trying to be more like San Antonio, which is probably the best option, replacing a ball-dominant/possible locker room distraction with a 3-D and potential 6th man scorer isn't the worst thing that can happen.

    I believe Indiana is a fringe contender due to the fact they are in the Eastern conference. Basketball is a lot about matchups. If they get to the finals (our road is easier than all the western teams) who is to say we don't matchup better with that particular team. And you can never discount a team that plays defense.

  12. #110
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Ginobili was drafted in 1999 and didn't even start to play in the NBA until 2002-2003. I don't think that's a good comparison to Lance because it wasn't a matter of taking someone who was coming into the league immediately, it was a draft-and-wait which always occurs below where a player would go if they were coming via the usual path. A great draft on San Antonio's part, but certainly not anything even approaching the norm.

    Rodman was drafted early in the second round (27th). After his 4th year I don't think anyone would have thought he was someone you would break the bank for:

    Code:
    Averages
    Year          Team                  	GP 	GS 	MPG 	FG% 	3P% 	FT% 	RPG 	APG 	SPG 	BPG 	PPG
    1986–87 	Detroit Pistons 	77 	1 	15.0 	.545 	.000 	.587 	4.3 	.7 	.5 	.6 	6.5
    1987–88 	Detroit Pistons 	82 	32 	26.2 	.561 	.294 	.535 	8.7 	1.3 	.9 	.5 	11.6
    1988–89† 	Detroit Pistons 	82 	8 	26.9 	.595 	.231 	.626 	9.4 	1.2 	.7 	.9 	9.0
    1989–90† 	Detroit Pistons 	82 	43 	29.0 	.581 	.111 	.654 	9.7 	.9 	.6 	.7 	8.8
    I don't understand your argument at all, I'm not trying to be difficult here. I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  13. #111
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    It was never open to begin with. It wasn't nailed shut, but it was one of those windows that jams and opening it is not likely.

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  15. #112
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Pacers were not going to win the championship in 2013. They only won 49 games that season. tell me the last championship team that won that few in a normal length season.
    The 1994-95 Houston Rockets with 47 wins.
    The 1977-78 Washington Bullets with 44 wins.
    The 1976-77 Portland Trailblazers with 49 wins.
    The 1974-75 Golden State Warriors with 48 wins.
    The 1968-69 Boston Celtics with 48 wins.

    Looks like we are about due for another champion with less than 50 regular season wins.

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  17. #113
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    ok
    It is extremely rare for a team to be so stacked with talent that they can afford to
    let a budding young star walk and yet remain a top team...

    Do you really like that better or is that just unnecessary verbiage?

    The point with Lance is that we we're freakin' lucky to have nabbed such a guy with a 2nd round pick. It is the luck you NEED as a fiscally restrained team. Now we need to do it AGAIN.

    We have too many nearly random and totally replaceable guys on contracts that must make you grimace.
    Nine mil. for Lance was very reasonable.

    We are NOT in any way an elite team right now and by the time we fix our weaknesses DWest will be slower than ketchup.

    I could almost say I am disappointed with management right now.
    But not quite.
    It is more correct to say we swung for the fences...
    Last year.

    The team assembled had a reasonable chance.
    They did not take it.
    They curled up like punks too many times.

    And to get back on point: We aren't winnin' squat with our current backcourt.

  18. #114
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I don't understand your argument at all, I'm not trying to be difficult here. I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.
    I guess I'm trying to say we can't look at Rodman's ultimate career and say, "gee, looks like at this stage in Lance's career it's pretty usual for a deep 2nd round pick to be having championship effect on his team". At similar times in their careers, Rodman hadn't made his huge mark, so no one would have said that it was a no-brainer to sign him for a pre-emptive amount of money.

    In Ginobili's case, that's an outlier however you look at it. He was not a typical 2nd round pick, and was deep not because of concerns of any kind but because the Euros were overlooked by people other than San Antonio.

    Bottom line is that I still think Lance is in a very rare position as a late 2nd round pick who is turning out to have an impact on this team worthy of discussion at the championship level, whether you agree with the actual effect or not.
    BillS

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  20. #115
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Maybe... Maybe not... Only time will tell...

    Depends on what our core of four do next year...

    If Hibbert rebounds his career and pulls off 15, 9, 2, 2 with moderate consistency things look good... If he comes back at 11,7,1,2 and fades into obscurity things look bad...

    If West comes back and produces similar to last year things look good... If he gets a step slower and drops big similar to Scola last year things look bad...

    If PG comes back and stays the same or maybe polishes his O game things look good... If PG gets no help from David, Roy, GHill, and the cast on the O end PG gets worn out early again trying to do too much and things look bad...

    If GHill comes back and gets aggressive his scoring output increases and things look good... If he stays the same as last year things look bad...

    Wayyyyyy too early to claim any window to be open or shut... Schrodinger's Boomer...
    Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

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  22. #116
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    The Pacers don't get by the Hawks or Wiz without PG, DWest, or Hill, so lets not make it out that the ONLY reason was Stephenson. If you listen to some, Stephenson was a 15 mil year player, yet he finally got an offer from only ONE other team for 9 mil per year. That pretty much says it all.

    Does Stephenson have the potential to be a "great" player, sure, but the Pacers existence, as some feel, doesn't revolve around Stephenson. I read on this forum constantly player X is going to be a future Allstar blah blah blah. I always felt Al Jefferson would be, and guess what it's never happened. He's a really good player with some good stats, but he didn't make a team all by himself and either does Stephenson. Maybe Stephenson is in the same mold, then again maybe he'll be better. Too much Blue n Gold homerism when it comes to Pacer players. Maybe it's taking a step back losing Stephenson, but I believe there is 2 steps to be taken forward in the future. I'm still of the believe that PG and Stephenson wouldn't be able to co-exist. one basketball 2 egos as to who would be THE PLAYER. I'll hitch my hope to PG for the future.
    Could not have said it better myself.

  23. #117
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    As presently constructed, I don't think this team is remotely capable of winning a title. We have an aging David West. We have a backup, journeyman who has only averaged 19 minutes a game as our starting SG. We have a starting C who has not shown to date that he has the mental part of the game in order. As a slow, plodding C, he now faces an entire season where his game will get exposed night in and night out. We have a decent starting PG who can defend but cannot lead an offense.

    We do have Paul George, but these days contenders have at least 2 or 3 players at or close that level. Since Lance is gone, we really only have one. So, yes, the door is closed for now unless Bird pulls off another great move which I am afraid is not in the cards for at least a year.

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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    As presently constructed, I don't think this team is remotely capable of winning a title. We have an aging David West. We have a backup, journeyman who has only averaged 19 minutes a game as our starting SG. We have a starting C who has not shown to date that he has the mental part of the game in order. As a slow, plodding C, he now faces an entire season where his game will get exposed night in and night out. We have a decent starting PG who can defend but cannot lead an offense.

    We do have Paul George, but these days contenders have at least 2 or 3 players at or close that level. Since Lance is gone, we really only have one. So, yes, the door is closed for now unless Bird pulls off another great move which I am afraid is not in the cards for at least a year.
    Everyone seems to be putting Miles in as our starting SG. That may not be the case, in fact, if you look at who has experience, the logical choice would be to start Stuckey at PG and GHill at SG. Having said that, I agree that the Pacers as they are currently constructed are not title contenders, however, they should be able to win around 50 games and make it to the second round of the playoffs. That is quite respectable, especially when you consider that they will have more cap space in the summer of 2015 to improve the team.

  25. #119
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by sav View Post
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    Everyone seems to be putting Miles in as our starting SG. That may not be the case, in fact, if you look at who has experience, the logical choice would be to start Stuckey at PG and GHill at SG. Having said that, I agree that the Pacers as they are currently constructed are not title contenders, however, they should be able to win around 50 games and make it to the second round of the playoffs. That is quite respectable, especially when you consider that they will have more cap space in the summer of 2015 to improve the team.
    Stuckey is pretty much a poor man's Lance Stephenson. Not a bad player really, but will not help you beat the best teams (e.g. the Spurs). I can see us possibly winning 50 games but it could easily be in the 40's. Yes, that's still respectable and much better than the JOb years and gives Paul another year to mature. If we lived through Murphleavy, we can put up with this.

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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    I believe it's a bit early to suggest the Pacers are out of the title picture. We'll know more at the All Star game next year.

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  29. #121
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by J7F View Post
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    Maybe... Maybe not... Only time will tell...

    Depends on what our core of four do next year...

    If Hibbert rebounds his career and pulls off 15, 9, 2, 2 with moderate consistency things look good... If he comes back at 11,7,1,2 and fades into obscurity things look bad...

    If West comes back and produces similar to last year things look good... If he gets a step slower and drops big similar to Scola last year things look bad...

    If PG comes back and stays the same or maybe polishes his O game things look good... If PG gets no help from David, Roy, GHill, and the cast on the O end PG gets worn out early again trying to do too much and things look bad...

    If GHill comes back and gets aggressive his scoring output increases and things look good... If he stays the same as last year things look bad...
    L
    Wayyyyyy too early to claim any window to be open or shut... Schrodinger's Boomer...
    He'll, I'd take 11 & 7 from Roy and run with it.
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

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  31. #122

    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Losing Lance for absolutely nothing was an extremely bad thing for the team. I think that has to just be accepted.
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

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  33. #123
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    It's all going to come down to what happens on the court when the regular season begins. Right now it's anyone's guess as to how each team will perform with their new rosters, how they'll progress through the season, dealing with potential injuries, etc.

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  35. #124
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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by BenR1990 View Post
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    It's all going to come down to what happens on the court when the regular season begins. Right now it's anyone's guess as to how each team will perform with their new rosters, how they'll progress through the season, dealing with potential injuries, etc.
    I think people are underestimating the level of talent to win a title. There are now many teams with more talent throughout the NBA and with DWest getting a year older we may be really hurting at PF pretty soon. The bigger question is if Bird can retool things to bring in another high level player who isn't past his prime. BTW, with Lance moving on and Stuckey and Miles coming in...we also got quite a bit older as a team...but not in a good way.

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    Default Re: Has the Indiana Pacers’ championship window closed?

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    He'll, I'd take 11 & 7 from Roy and run with it.
    I'm an optimist in general so I round up

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