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Thread: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Try shooting a Grapefruit into the basket, kind of a comparison. Not impossible, but alot harder.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    There is also a argument on the talent pool. Shooting required talent. For a 6-2 guy with trouble shooting, he had almost no chance of making nba.


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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Actually, they are true.

    Anyone that's ever shot at a children's toy basket would know that.

    I guarantee you if the rim were lowered 18 inches, 6-foot guards would shoot a worse percentage. When I was a kid we used to lower the rim just enough to where we could all dunk it and play 21, just for kicks. Yeah the dunking was fun but hitting your bonus shots was a hell of a lot harder.
    The reason it was harder was because you weren't used to shooting towards a basket 18 inches lower than normal, not because it is inherently more difficult.

    The simple reason why centers struggle is because they don't practice that 15ft shot as much as wing players do. Most of a center's practice time, from a young age, is focused on post moves, defense, and setting picks. They don't practice shooting like wing players do, and when they do it is usually limited to 15ft. If more focus was put into bigs being shooters at a young age, their FT% would also increase.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I am not being emotional at all. I think Hibbert's lack of production speaks for itself. I think the people expecting Roy to all of the sudden morph into first half Roy are the ones that are emotional myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Maybe so. A "3 month slump" is more than a funk or whatever moniker you want to use. 3 months of play is who you are, it is your identity. Will Roy suddenly become a consistent 13/9 guy? Maybe? Will I win 500 bucks in the lottery? Maybe. Both things could happen, but I am not holding my breath on either.
    3months is a players identity, it's who they are? So according to you 3months>>>>>3 1/2 seasons. Let's look at Roy's first three months of 13-14, compared to his seasonal averages.

    Nov-Jan 13-14
    12.3pts 7.7rebs 46.3fg%

    12-13
    11.9pts 8.3rebs 44.8fg%

    11-12
    12.8pts 8.8rebs 49.7fg%

    10-11
    12.7pts 7.5rebs 46.1fg%

    So basically, you think people are being "emotional" to think Roy will be the player he was for 3 full seasons plus 3 months of another, because he sucked three seasons. Yep, you're the being "non-emotional" on this.


    We can all go home now because 3 1/2 seasons is now worthless, ignore those stats. All we need to know to understand who Roy is, is the last 3 months of 13-14. All the other data, just toss out cause that's not the "real" Roy.
    Last edited by Since86; 07-28-2014 at 09:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    And really this thought that Roy was awful the last three months of the season, just isn't true. Yes, he was awful, but not for 3months. His FG% slipped a bit in March, down to 42.2% but the real issue was his rebounding, which fell to 4.6/gm. Then April hit and he shot 23.5fg% and averaged 3.2rebs.

    So out of those "3 months" that showed us the "real" Roy, it was really only a month and a half. I think we'd be content with Roy's Feb shooting of 46.3% and 7.1rebs.
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So basically, you think people are being "emotional" to think Roy will be the player he was for 3 full seasons plus 3 months of another, because he sucked three months. Yep, you're the being "non-emotional" on this.
    Fixed. But you're absolutely right on the mark here.
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    Yeah, that's the problem. I don't think anyone on this board is as big of a jerk in person as they come across on here. Except maybe Nuntius. Dude is impossibly nice.
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Skull View Post
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    I always figured the hardest part of shooting a FT in the game was calming down enough to finesse it in. I believe that is why Reggie always went and got chalk (or whatever its called) before shooting freethrows just to get a few extra seconds to take deep breathes and calm down. Having said that, I feel big men exert more energy (they're heavier, run paint to paint, bang in the post, and usually have to sprint to run with smaller players) and it is much harder to calm down; especially since that have more muscle to calm down.
    For me, the hardest part of shooting a FT was the bleacher laps I had to run for every one that I missed...
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    3months is a players identity, it's who they are? So according to you 3months>>>>>3 1/2 seasons. Let's look at Roy's first three months of 13-14, compared to his seasonal averages.

    Nov-Jan 13-14
    12.3pts 7.7rebs 46.3fg%

    12-13
    11.9pts 8.3rebs 44.8fg%

    11-12
    12.8pts 8.8rebs 49.7fg%

    10-11
    12.7pts 7.5rebs 46.1fg%

    So basically, you think people are being "emotional" to think Roy will be the player he was for 3 full seasons plus 3 months of another, because he sucked three seasons. Yep, you're the being "non-emotional" on this.


    We can all go home now because 3 1/2 seasons is now worthless, ignore those stats. All we need to know to understand who Roy is, is the last 3 months of 13-14. All the other data, just toss out cause that's not the "real" Roy.
    And while we are at it lets look at Kobe Bryant's past statistics as a reference point for this year, makes sense.

    It is funny how everyone wants to defend Roy and say the last three months was an exception and shouldn't be used to predict future results, but no one dared to extend this same line of thought to Evan Turner. Statistically Turner played his worst three months of basketball with the Pacers, but I didn't hear anyone (aside from Grimp) say we need to re-sign Evan because "it was just a 3 month lull and he will be back to normal next season".

    It appears (based on Turner's contract) the rest of the NBA ignored Turner's career numbers and focused on his last three months as a predictor of future performance. But when I try to apply the same logic to Roy the sunshiners get flustered. We shall see what Roy we get this upcoming season.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Yep, you're right. A month and a half of Roy is the real Roy, while 3 1/2 years of Roy, was fake Roy. Next time instead of bringing up Kobe, you'll bring up Mikan. It will hold just as much relevance.

    Trying to argue 1 1/2 months>>>>>> 21months is the most "rational" thing I've seen yet.
    Last edited by Since86; 07-28-2014 at 01:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yep, you're right. A month and a half of Roy is the real Roy, while 3 1/2 years of Roy, was fake Roy. Next time instead of bringing up Kobe, you'll bring up Mikan. It will hold just as much relevance.

    Month and a half? Lol ok.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yep, you're right. A month and a half of Roy is the real Roy, while 3 1/2 years of Roy, was fake Roy. Next time instead of bringing up Kobe, you'll bring up Mikan. It will hold just as much relevance.

    Trying to argue 1 /12 months>>>>>> 21months is the most "rational" thing I've seen yet.
    Evan Turner must have been a heck of a steal for Boston. Ainge for GM of the year!

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    How about something to back up your assertion? I'll even do the leg work. Here's Roy's monthly splits.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/splits/2014/
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Evan Turner must have been a heck of a steal for Boston. Ainge for GM of the year!
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    It appears (based on Turner's contract) the rest of the NBA ignored Turner's career numbers and focused on his last three months as a predictor of future performance. But when I try to apply the same logic to Roy the sunshiners get flustered. We shall see what Roy we get this upcoming season.
    What a crazy comparison. Hibbert is a proven playoff performer. At two time All Star and all defensive player. Hibbert dominated a playoffs and has been a major cog of a good team. Evan Turner has done absolutely nothing to help a team win games, the ultimate goal.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Not to mention that Turner's problems here in Indy are the same problems he had in Philly. His inability to score effectively, combined with a high usage rate.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersRule View Post
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    I didn't go through all the posts about why big man can't shoot free throws but this has always been one of the biggest puzzles for me. The argument is 1. They can't shoot as well because their release point is higher and 2. They can't shoot as well because they've got bigger hands. Well, based on these two arguments, 1. So if you move the hoop down 1 foot, a 6'2'' would make free throws at the percentages of a 7'2'' player or 2. If you give a 6'2'' player a ball that's, say, 90% the size of normal, he would make FTs at the percentages of a 7'2'' player, or 3. you move the hoop down 1 foot and tell the 6'2'' player to shoot with a ball 90% of its normal volume, he would hit FT at the percentages of a big man. I don't believe any of these are true, hence I really wonder how much time big man spend on practicing free throws and why most still shoot such low percentages after YEARS of practice (assuming they do practice).
    The higher release point argument is dumb.

    I think there is some value in the larger hands theory (while smaller, think how hard it is to shoot a small nerf basketball compared to a real one), particularly when compared with longer arms (which reduces touch). Think of a wheel on a tire; the farther out from the center you go, the greater the rotational velocity. Similarly, a longer arm rotating at the same rate as a smaller arm will result in a faster traveling hand (and a stronger shot).

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    It is funny how everyone wants to defend Roy and say the last three months was an exception and shouldn't be used to predict future results, but no one dared to extend this same line of thought to Evan Turner. Statistically Turner played his worst three months of basketball with the Pacers, but I didn't hear anyone (aside from Grimp) say we need to re-sign Evan because "it was just a 3 month lull and he will be back to normal next season".
    The reason why no one extended the same line of thought to Evan Turner is that Evan wasn't a good fit for us. He had several issues defensively and he wasn't the kind of shooter that we need on the wing. Evan is a player that requires the ball in his hands in order to prosper and some people think that we need less ball-dominant players not more. That's why most people didn't say that we need to re-sign Evan.

    Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with re-signing Evan. I believe that he is a good player and that he will fit a home that fits his basketball talents eventually. It just seemed that Indiana wasn't that home. I would have agreed if the FO decided to give him a second chance but it's obvious that Lance and the acquisition of more shooters was a lot more important to the FO (which I get).
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    And while we are at it lets look at Kobe Bryant's past statistics as a reference point for this year, makes sense.

    It is funny how everyone wants to defend Roy and say the last three months was an exception and shouldn't be used to predict future results, but no one dared to extend this same line of thought to Evan Turner. Statistically Turner played his worst three months of basketball with the Pacers, but I didn't hear anyone (aside from Grimp) say we need to re-sign Evan because "it was just a 3 month lull and he will be back to normal next season".

    It appears (based on Turner's contract) the rest of the NBA ignored Turner's career numbers and focused on his last three months as a predictor of future performance. But when I try to apply the same logic to Roy the sunshiners get flustered. We shall see what Roy we get this upcoming season.

    Kobe Bryant is irrelevant. Roy is 27 (or is he 28 now?) not 37. From history we know 27 is within a players prime, and players don't really suddenly turn into crap unless there was an injury.

    Evan Turner is a poor example. Turner's advance statistics barely changed at all. His per possession statistics barely changed at all. The only thing that really changed was he didn't score well. Which shouldn't be surprising because he has been an inefficient scorer since he stepped onto an NBA court. Scoring 17ppg on the worst team in the league does not make you a good player at the NBA level. Turner was considered a bust for at least the first two seasons of his career. That team had to get rid of like half their team before Turner became their best scorer. When your scorer is as inefficient as Turner it is no wonder they had the worst team in the league. It really shouldn't be a surprise that an inefficient scorer had trouble scoring when the offense wasn't designed around him scoring, and Turner didn't offer much else and everyone already knew he didn't offer much else. With Turner we aren't talking about multiple seasons of high level play, then a period of bad play. With Turner we are talking about multiple seasons of mediocre play at best, followed a period of high PPG number, then a period of more bad play. Turner's bad three months with the Pacers falls in line with what Turner has done over his career.

    Please, have a memory longer than a few months. It will open you mind to reality.
    Last edited by Eleazar; 07-28-2014 at 01:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by freddielewis14 View Post
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    What a crazy comparison. Hibbert is a proven playoff performer. At two time All Star and all defensive player. Hibbert dominated a playoffs and has been a major cog of a good team. Evan Turner has done absolutely nothing to help a team win games, the ultimate goal.
    Evan Turner HAS BEEN a contributor on a playoff team, just like the guy you are trying to defend. Nice try.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    The reason why no one extended the same line of thought to Evan Turner is that Evan wasn't a good fit for us. He had several issues defensively and he wasn't the kind of shooter that we need on the wing. Evan is a player that requires the ball in his hands in order to prosper and some people think that we need less ball-dominant players not more. That's why most people didn't say that we need to re-sign Evan.

    Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with re-signing Evan. I believe that he is a good player and that he will fit a home that fits his basketball talents eventually. It just seemed that Indiana wasn't that home. I would have agreed if the FO decided to give him a second chance but it's obvious that Lance and the acquisition of more shooters was a lot more important to the FO (which I get).
    I don't disagree with anything you have said about Turner. Honestly he was one of my least favorite guys to ever put on a Pacer uniform. I don't wish him bad or think he is a bad person, he was just awful here. Obviously if anyone really wants to they can poke holes in any comparison they wish.

    I do find it funny that the sunshiners come out of the woodwork to poke holes at my comparisons, and throw up cartoons to apparently prove some point, yet have no comparisons of their own.

    If Turner is such a "terrible" comparison when talking about production, who can you compare Roy to? A All Star who completely goes into the tank for three months who rebounds the next season to have a good year is what I am looking for. You guys can rip the Turner/Hibbert comparison, that is fine. The fact remains they both had an awful three month stretch. Turner's horrendous stretch obviously led GM's to believe it was a sign of things to come and he got very little money in the open market. Unlike Turner this board holds out hope/belief that Hibberts horrendous three month stretch was a complete aberration. Like I said, we will see come November.

    Since my Hibbert/Turner comparison is completely unfair, please show me a good one as a baseline for Hibbert, anyone?

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Evan Turner HAS BEEN a contributor on a playoff team, just like the guy you are trying to defend. Nice try.
    You realize Hibbert struggled for one half of a season right....? He played through a wrist injury in 12-13, so unless injuries shouldn't effect performances, he has struggled for half a season...

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    You realize Hibbert struggled for one half of a season right....? He played through a wrist injury in 12-13, so unless injuries shouldn't effect performances, he has struggled for half a season...
    I had absolutely no clue. Thank you so much for pointing that out.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    And while we are at it lets look at Kobe Bryant's past statistics as a reference point for this year, makes sense.

    It is funny how everyone wants to defend Roy and say the last three months was an exception and shouldn't be used to predict future results, but no one dared to extend this same line of thought to Evan Turner. Statistically Turner played his worst three months of basketball with the Pacers, but I didn't hear anyone (aside from Grimp) say we need to re-sign Evan because "it was just a 3 month lull and he will be back to normal next season".

    It appears (based on Turner's contract) the rest of the NBA ignored Turner's career numbers and focused on his last three months as a predictor of future performance. But when I try to apply the same logic to Roy the sunshiners get flustered. We shall see what Roy we get this upcoming season.
    Philly fans had been saying for a while he sucked.... Why do you think they gave him away for a 2nd round pick?

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I do find it funny that the sunshiners come out of the woodwork to poke holes at my comparisons, and throw up cartoons to apparently prove some point, yet have no comparisons of their own.
    You have no point. What Evan Turner did or didn't do in Indy and what he did or didn't do in Philly has absolutely nothing to do with what Roy previously did and what he did in the months of March/April.


    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Since my Hibbert/Turner comparison is completely unfair, please show me a good one as a baseline for Hibbert, anyone?
    Umm... Why do we need to look at other players baselines in order to judge Roy, when we can simply look at Roy? Because looking at Roy's career numbers to establish Roy's baseline would sink your non-point, that's why.
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