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Thread: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    He wasn't being guarded or have make a move with ball when he was shooting free throws. With his number of years of experience he SHOULD hit 77% of them.
    you mean like all great big men do yes ?
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    He wasn't being guarded or have make a move with ball when he was shooting free throws. With his number of years of experience he SHOULD hit 77% of them.
    I'm confused, what does the # of years of experience have to do with hitting a 77% FT percentage?

    There are Centers that have played full careers that don't even average 77% from the FT line for a single season.
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    you mean like all great big men do yes ?
    Yea I'm going to have to go with Able on this one. I am as down on Roy as you can be at the moment but free throw shooting is not a problem, in fact it is a real strength of his. You can go down the list and it is a lot easier to name poor free throw shooting bigs than it is to name good ones.


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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Guys, it is a fifteen foot wide-open set shot. I just think most players at the pro level should be able to make three out of four. To me, there is no excuse for not being are to do that.

    As far as what part experience plays? Years of practice with availability of facilities to hone this simple shot. There are kids in junior high who can hit that shot at a high percentage. Are we going to make excuses for a pro to not be able to?

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Guys, it is a fifteen foot wide-open set shot. I just think most players at the pro level should be able to make three out of four. To me, there is no excuse for not being are to do that.
    Totally oversimplified. It's a lot harder to really strong 7 footers with huge hands. The higher the release point, the less forgiving the angle.

    Also there are special circumstances, like shaq's broken wrist and Ben Wallace's dislocated wrist.
    Last edited by Kstat; 07-27-2014 at 05:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Guys, it is a fifteen foot wide-open set shot. I just think most players at the pro level should be able to make three out of four.
    You are free to think that most players at the pro level should be able to make three out of four but the fact is that they don't. That's especially true for Centers.

    Several Centers that are now in the Hall of Fame shot below 70% in their career. Here are some examples:

    Alonzo Mourning: 69.2% -> http://www.basketball-reference.com/...mournal01.html

    Elvin Hayes: 67% -> http://www.basketball-reference.com/...hayesel01.html

    Ralph Sampson: 66.1% -> http://www.basketball-reference.com/...sampsra01.html

    Bill Walton: 66% -> http://www.basketball-reference.com/...waltobi01.html

    Bill Russell: 56.1% -> http://www.basketball-reference.com/...russebi01.html

    Even some more recent NBA greats that are going to be inducted to the Hall of Fame when all is said and done like Tim Duncan and Dikembe Mutombo have a career average below 70% (Duncan is at 69.4% and Dikembe is at 68.4%).
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Again, the taller you are, the less forgiving the angle. It's also more difficult to finesse the ball if you're really strong with big hands.

    A free throw isn't a one size fits all scenario and it's insulting to pretend like it is. Guess what? It's harder for a 7-foot 270-lb proffesional to hit a FT than it is a scrawny 5'9" kid. The 7-footer has a release point several feet higher, and thus can't arc the ball up on the rim as softly.
    Last edited by Kstat; 07-27-2014 at 06:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Again, the taller you are, the less forgiving the angle. It's also more difficult to finesse the ball if you're really strong with big hands.

    A free throw isn't a one size fits all scenario and it's insulting to pretend like it is. Guess what? It's harder for a 7-foot 270-lb proffesional to hit a FT than it is a scrawny 5'9" kid. The 7-footer has a release point several feet higher, and thus can't arc the ball up on the rim as softly.
    But they don't have to give in to their height "disadvantage". Adopting (and practicing) Rick Barry's underhand free throw style would negate the height and release point argument. I don't understand why big men, in particular, don't adopt this style.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    LOL ok guys. Keep counting on Hibbert. In your spare time buy a bunch of scratch off lottery tickets. I once heard of a dude winning a bunch of money.

    We always seem to be rosy about our guys in the offseason, but when Roy goes Roy check out the threads and posts then. I am just being consistent and not emotional when speaking about our players. If that makes me a bad guy so be it.
    I'm sorry but the first paragraph of this post is clearly emotional. Saying that you don't want to get your hopes up because you did in the past and were let down is emotional as well. You are not a bad guy at all, my friend. You're just emotional when it comes to the Pacers like almost everyone else in this forum.
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The 7-footer has a release point several feet higher, and thus can't arc the ball up on the rim as softly.
    A shame that no one in the modern era shoots underhanded.
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I'm sorry but the first paragraph of this post is clearly emotional. Saying that you don't want to get your hopes up because you did in the past and were let down is emotional as well. You are not a bad guy at all, my friend. You're just emotional when it comes to the Pacers like almost everyone else in this forum.
    I am not being emotional at all. I think Hibbert's lack of production speaks for itself. I think the people expecting Roy to all of the sudden morph into first half Roy are the ones that are emotional myself.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I am not being emotional at all. I think Hibbert's lack of production speaks for itself. I think the people expecting Roy to all of the sudden morph into first half Roy are the ones that are emotional myself.
    You said that you are not getting your hopes up because you did in the past and were let down afterwards, didn't you? Isn't that a show of emotion?
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I am not being emotional at all. I think Hibbert's lack of production speaks for itself. I think the people expecting Roy to all of the sudden morph into first half Roy are the ones that are emotional myself.
    How so? At Roy's age, unless he is dealing with an injury, the logical thing to expect is for Roy to play the way he has the majority of the past 3 seasons, not the most recent 3 month stint. That was easily the worst three months of basketball Roy has played in his NBA career. Players who have a bad period of play for unknown reasons tend to recover to something more similar to their normal play than stay at that level at Roy's age.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I am not being emotional at all. I think Hibbert's lack of production speaks for itself. I think the people expecting Roy to all of the sudden morph into first half Roy are the ones that are emotional myself.
    Why cant he though? Its just as likely that he reverts back to playing at a higher level as it is that he remains in a funk. Roy just finished probably the worst 3 months of basketball in his life. Why would that all of a suddem be his normal level of play?

    Also, Roy from the first half of last season wasn't a Roy that was completely playing over his head. He brings his elite rim protection and ups his FG% back closer to 50%, and you've got the player from the first half of last season.
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    You said that you are not getting your hopes up because you did in the past and were let down afterwards, didn't you? Isn't that a show of emotion?
    Maybe so. A "3 month slump" is more than a funk or whatever moniker you want to use. 3 months of play is who you are, it is your identity. Will Roy suddenly become a consistent 13/9 guy? Maybe? Will I win 500 bucks in the lottery? Maybe. Both things could happen, but I am not holding my breath on either.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Just out of curiosity, can anyone name another player who has had a "3 month funk" to the extent Hibbert has?

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Just out of curiosity, can anyone name another player who has had a "3 month funk" to the extent Hibbert has?
    Darned good question. I wish I had an answer.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Maybe so. A "3 month slump" is more than a funk or whatever moniker you want to use. 3 months of play is who you are, it is your identity. Will Roy suddenly become a consistent 13/9 guy? Maybe? Will I win 500 bucks in the lottery? Maybe. Both things could happen, but I am not holding my breath on either.
    Let's revisit the 12-13 season a bit. Roy struggled with his shooting in the first part of the season and averaged 10 PPG on 41.4% shooting, 8.3 RPG, 2.6 BPG and 1.5 APG. He recovered after the ASB and averaged 15.7 PPG on 50.8% shooting, 8.2 RPG, 2.5 BPG and 1.3 APG -> http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits...13/roy-hibbert

    As you can see the difference between pre-ASB and post-ASB Hibbert in 12-13 clearly revolved around his shooting which further indicates that his real issue was that wrist injury.

    Then the 12-13 playoffs came and Roy averaged 17 PPG on 51.1% shooting, 9.9 RPG, 1.9 BPG and 1.4 APG. His scoring, shooting and rebounding all increased.

    As the above numbers clearly indicate Roy was amazing in the last 3 months of 12-13.

    A similar thing happened this season but unfortunately the order of Roy's good and bad months were reversed. His good months came in November and December and then he started struggling. It's absolutely true that he was very bad in the last 3 months of 13-14 and no one can deny that.

    However, just like the last 3 months of 12-13 didn't mean that Roy had become a 17/10 player similarly the last 3 months of 13-14 don't mean that he has become a 9/5 player. Both of them are statistical extremes and Roy is going to be somewhere in between.

    In any case, this wasn't the reason why I replied to your post from page 2. My views on Roy are well-known and I happen to disagree with a lot of posters on this issue. I simply posted because I wanted to tell you that you seem to be a lot more emotionally invested in this than you seem to think.
    Last edited by Nuntius; 07-27-2014 at 09:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    I feel like free throw shooting is more mental than anything else, which is pretty ironic given that many tend to label Hibbert as a headcase.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Let's revisit the 12-13 season a bit. Roy struggled with his shooting in the first part of the season and averaged 10 PPG on 41.4% shooting, 8.3 RPG, 2.6 BPG and 1.5 APG. He recovered after the ASB and averaged 15.7 PPG on 50.8% shooting, 8.2 RPG, 2.5 BPG and 1.3 APG -> http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits...13/roy-hibbert

    As you can see the difference between pre-ASB and post-ASB Hibbert in 12-13 clearly revolved around his shooting which further indicates that his real issue was that wrist injury.

    Then the 12-13 playoffs came and Roy averaged 17 PPG on 51.1% shooting, 9.9 RPG, 1.9 BPG and 1.4 APG. His scoring, shooting and rebounding all increased.

    As the above numbers clearly indicate Roy was amazing in the last 3 months of 12-13.

    A similar thing happened this season but unfortunately the order of Roy's good and bad months were reversed. His good months came in November and December and then he started struggling. It's absolutely true that he was very bad in the last 3 months of 13-14 and no one can deny that.

    However, just like the last 3 months of 12-13 didn't mean that Roy had become a 17/10 player similarly the last 3 months of 13-14 don't mean that he has become a 9/5 player. Both of them are statistical extremes and Roy is going to be somewhere in between.

    In any case, this wasn't the reason why I replied to your post from page 2. My views on Roy are well-known and I happen to disagree with a lot of posters on this issue. I simply posted because I wanted to tell you that you seem to be a lot more emotionally invested in this than you seem to think.
    I can forgive Roy's bad offensive shooting % in 2013-13 due to the wrist injury. Last season was just insane on a number of different levels. Hey, I hope I am proven to be a fool when it comes to questioning Roy. We will see.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I can forgive Roy's bad offensive shooting % in 2013-13 due to the wrist injury. Last season was just insane on a number of different levels. Hey, I hope I am proven to be a fool when it comes to questioning Roy. We will see.
    Everything was insane after the ASB, my friend. Every game was a wild ride and nothing was certain anymore.
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenR1990 View Post
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    I feel like free throw shooting is more mental than anything else, which is pretty ironic given that many tend to label Hibbert as a headcase.
    So, what does it mean for great Centers that were never able to master hitting the FT shot when they have gotten to the line more than your average Guard?

    Were they mentally weak or just that they simply could not master hitting the FT line ( for one reason or another )?
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Again, the taller you are, the less forgiving the angle. It's also more difficult to finesse the ball if you're really strong with big hands.

    A free throw isn't a one size fits all scenario and it's insulting to pretend like it is. Guess what? It's harder for a 7-foot 270-lb proffesional to hit a FT than it is a scrawny 5'9" kid. The 7-footer has a release point several feet higher, and thus can't arc the ball up on the rim as softly.
    I didn't go through all the posts about why big man can't shoot free throws but this has always been one of the biggest puzzles for me. The argument is 1. They can't shoot as well because their release point is higher and 2. They can't shoot as well because they've got bigger hands. Well, based on these two arguments, 1. So if you move the hoop down 1 foot, a 6'2'' would make free throws at the percentages of a 7'2'' player or 2. If you give a 6'2'' player a ball that's, say, 90% the size of normal, he would make FTs at the percentages of a 7'2'' player, or 3. you move the hoop down 1 foot and tell the 6'2'' player to shoot with a ball 90% of its normal volume, he would hit FT at the percentages of a big man. I don't believe any of these are true, hence I really wonder how much time big man spend on practicing free throws and why most still shoot such low percentages after YEARS of practice (assuming they do practice).

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersRule View Post
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    I didn't go through all the posts about why big man can't shoot free throws but this has always been one of the biggest puzzles for me. The argument is 1. They can't shoot as well because their release point is higher and 2. They can't shoot as well because they've got bigger hands. Well, based on these two arguments, 1. So if you move the hoop down 1 foot, a 6'2'' would make free throws at the percentages of a 7'2'' player or 2. If you give a 6'2'' player a ball that's, say, 90% the size of normal, he would make FTs at the percentages of a 7'2'' player, or 3. you move the hoop down 1 foot and tell the 6'2'' player to shoot with a ball 90% of its normal volume, he would hit FT at the percentages of a big man. I don't believe any of these are true, hence I really wonder how much time big man spend on practicing free throws and why most still shoot such low percentages after YEARS of practice (assuming they do practice).
    Actually, they are true.

    Anyone that's ever shot at a children's toy basket would know that.

    I guarantee you if the rim were lowered 18 inches, 6-foot guards would shoot a worse percentage. When I was a kid we used to lower the rim just enough to where we could all dunk it and play 21, just for kicks. Yeah the dunking was fun but hitting your bonus shots was a hell of a lot harder.
    Last edited by Kstat; 07-28-2014 at 07:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert is training with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this offseason.

    I always figured the hardest part of shooting a FT in the game was calming down enough to finesse it in. I believe that is why Reggie always went and got chalk (or whatever its called) before shooting freethrows just to get a few extra seconds to take deep breathes and calm down. Having said that, I feel big men exert more energy (they're heavier, run paint to paint, bang in the post, and usually have to sprint to run with smaller players) and it is much harder to calm down; especially since that have more muscle to calm down.
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