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Thread: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I think Lance is banking on Jordan preparing a personal touch to him, much like Bird did, but I just do not see that in Jordan's DNA. Bird has always been a guy who is focused on making other players better even back in his BOston days. Jordan made people better too, but he did it through fear. Either you play well or I will have coach bench you. Doug Collins talked about this with Bill Simmons how Jordan would remove people from the game with just a glance to the bench. I don't think Lance quite knows what he's in for. Jordan is not there to baby sit or be a father figure for Lance. He will either expect Lance to produce or Jordan will lose interest in him very quickly. That is a lot of pressure on Lance. I hope he is viewing that way because if he expects to have a Bird type of relationship with MJ he just won't. Bird has always clearly had a soft spot for guys with rough edges, Jordan on the other hand IMO won't make time for that.

    Anyway, I think truly do think that Paul George's growth combined with the platoon of George Hill, CJ Watson, CJ Miles, Stuckey and Solomon Hill (Hopefully) will be enough to offset Lance. The biggest thing we will have to work to replace from Lance is his open court dynamic of getting out and running. I believe that the Watson/Hill backcourt can give us that sort of jolt if we play G. Hill off the ball. George Hill is the best athlete on this team and I believe encouraging him to get out and run as more of a "two guard" would be a good decision for 10-15 minutes a game. I believe that Stuckey can replace some of what Lance brought in the half court. Lance's half court impact is actually pretty over stated. He was good, but definitely not great, and Stuckey has been more proficient at gaining free throws than Lance has ever been. When you consider how often Lance drove to the hoop last year it is pretty telling that Lance only averaged 2.5 FT per game. I think part of this was the types of drives Lance took, a lot of them were fairly uncontested, Lance got a lot of open drives off of David West high post action and just from playing next to a guy who attracts as much attention as Paul George does, no reason IMO that Stuckey can't finish those plays the same way if he stays within the team structure, obviously that is an unknown but so is Lance's potential production in Charlotte so no reason we can't speculate both sides of the coin here.

    Miles clearly improves our outside shooting from the shooting guard position. He is a great catch and shoot guy in transition which is something Lance IMO struggled with. Lance was best as a shooter when he had time to catch, set and release, which is fine, but I honestly believe Miles ability to catch and shoot in transition can improve our offensive efficiency by creating more open court opportunites. Lance is a tremendous 1 v1 open court player perhaps one of the best 10 guys in the league at this particular thing, but he also struggles to create for others in the open court which could often create an extremely ugly transition setup if Lance found himself in a bad situation, yes occasionally he would bail himself out with a great pass which I'm sure we all loved to watch, but often he would find himself dribbling or driving into a double team with no good release. Finally it brings me to Solomon Hill, offensively I believe we need absolutely nothing from Solo if he can hit a corner 3 then that is a bonus, I think Stuckey and Miles can both replace Lance's 13 PPG, what we need from Solo is the opportunity to give Paul George a break on defense even if it is just for 6-8 minutes per game against elite perimeter offensive guys. If Solo can come in and do this, then IMO we have replaced Lance by committee.

    To me this is not addition by subtraction or even a 1 to 1 trade of talent (like say if we had picked up Dragic while losing Lance), this is a creation of a more identity based team, and no I'm not talking smashmouth or anything like that. The Pacers roster has the potential IMHO to function better as a unit than any of the teams we have had under Frank Vogel. And that is in closing my final point, this is Frank's greatest test yet, he has the talent and the matching pieces, now he just needs to put the engine together and put gas in the tank, not a small task by any means, but as I look at this roster I see the potential for all of these moving parts at the 2 position to help the Pacers make a better end product than what they could with Lance. That's not an indictment on Lance either, but it is just an observation based on the player Lance had become. Lance was a guy with a number 1 option mentality who is stuck next to a clear number 1 option. No matter what, Lance Stephenson was never going to supplant Paul George as the star on this team. It is entirely possible that for the betterment of both parties, Lance needed to go somewhere else and the Pacers needed Lance to go somewhere else. My only concern for Lance is that Charlotte was not the right place to go, but only time will tell on that front....

    I believed that Lance and Paul could have eventually learned to play together under the new normal of who Lance is as a basketball player, but I also believe there was a learning curve there. One that in the end Lance IMO decided he would rather not deal with which is fine and I believe the Pacers have done a good job not necessarily of replacing Lance Stephenson the player but of replacing the different skills he brought to the table. True we cannot find another Lance, but we've found many of the attributes Lance had through other players. Now it's just time to see if we can get all the instruments in tune.

    Anyway, those are my final thoughts on the subject. I eagerly await the start of this season as I believe the Pacers ensemble can play a more complete pleasant piece without Lance, it may lack some of the raw emotional power Lance brought, but in the end I believe the final product on the floor has the potential to be more fluid and melodious.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 07-21-2014 at 12:41 PM.

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  3. #152
    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I ironically funny thing about this, is the talent drop-off from Danny (11-12 Danny) to Lance (12-13) is bigger than Lance (13-14) to CJ Miles (13-14)
    Is this even true?

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  5. #153
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I hope your right but at the end of the day I am not happy with depending on Roy Hibbert.

    Not only do I think we have taken a step back though I think several teams in the East have made improvements. But again, it's only July, there is a lot to be said and done between now and the start of the season.

    I don't think we're depending on Roy HIbbert though. Roy is Roy for better or worse, but I honestly do believe the guy who will we see have a serious change in his game after the departure of Lance is George Hill.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    But we offered him a player option, the same year Charlotte has a team option. It would make sense if that wasn't the case. And MAYBE those extra couple of millions means something to him now and he wanted it instantly. But I really think it has more to do with wanting to be more of a focus on the offensive end.
    I don't know why people keep saying that. It's been cited repeatedly and you can go see for yourself if you read the CBA, the player option in the middle of the contract is NOT POSSIBLE. You CANNOT give a player option in year 3 of a 5 year contract. It is against the CBA, so clearly this DID NOT happen. Quit saying it did. This article is worthless because half of it is based on a provably false premise.

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  9. #155
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    What if it meant we offered a similar length contract, it's just not stated correctly? It's possible. I don't discount the whole article based on one incorrect item. I understand why some are, though, but not me.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    Is this even true?
    Of course. I think people forget just how good Danny was.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    No you didn't understand what I wrote at all, or more likely I was very unclear in what I was saying.

    Let me make it more clear for you.

    The Indiana Pacers as constructed have peaked and are now on the descent. This of course is just my opinion and as always I could be wrong.

    Our front court has been exposed, when I say front court I mean Center/Power forward.

    We are soft, so far away from smash mouth basketball that I get physically ill just thinking about it.

    Lance is irrelevant to me in the way I am thinking about the team. Had Lance come back I still would say that we have to make changes and changing Lance for Miles or Stucky is not what I had in mind at all.
    As far as smash mouth I thought that was overstated. However it is even worse now that West is older and Roy is, well Roy. Slow and unathletic for your bigs is NOT good. I have not given up hope on next year but I think until the starting center is traded or a much better back up is obtained this team will not win a finals. I would sure like to see some smashmouth type ball but something has to change to get there.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    I don't know why people keep saying that. It's been cited repeatedly and you can go see for yourself if you read the CBA, the player option in the middle of the contract is NOT POSSIBLE. You CANNOT give a player option in year 3 of a 5 year contract. It is against the CBA, so clearly this DID NOT happen. Quit saying it did. This article is worthless because half of it is based on a provably false premise.
    Thanks, pretty sure it has been reported that the Pacers did, which is probably why people keep repeating it. (Which, a reporter being wrong is not unusual).

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    Is this even true?
    Heck no.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    The Pacers roster has the potential IMHO to function better as a unit than any of the teams we have had under Frank Vogel. And that is in closing my final point, this is Frank's greatest test yet, he has the talent and the matching pieces, now he just needs to put the engine together and put gas in the tank, not a small task by any means, but as I look at this roster I see the potential for all of these moving parts at the 2 position to help the Pacers make a better end product than what they could with Lance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I don't think we're depending on Roy Hibbert though. Roy is Roy for better or worse, but I honestly do believe the guy who will we see have a serious change in his game after the departure of Lance is George Hill.
    I agree. Last season, I thought we'd go as far as Lance and Paul George could take us - that their growth would be the main factor in whether or not we beat Miami. This season, I think it'll come down to how Hill and Vogel adjust after last season's collapse. We'll see.

  19. #161

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I hope your right but at the end of the day I am not happy with depending on Roy Hibbert.

    Not only do I think we have taken a step back though I think several teams in the East have made improvements. But again, it's only July, there is a lot to be said and done between now and the start of the season.
    This to me, is the big one. Roy Hibbert has always had dips in his play, but this was the first time, under Frank, where he didn't snap out of it for the Pacers. All players have limitations. We have a great coach. I think he can mask it (he masked it for a few years..). But the issue becomes Roy Hibbert's mental state. A Roy Hibbert that is playing well is with his flaws, so long as Frank can figure out a way to mask that.

    I kind of go back to we need an athletic, mobile power forward. A team playing a stretch post player wasn't a problem with Roy. What the problem was, we had West out there too..who also couldn't guard the stretch post players. McRoberts really would have been a welcome addition.

    When it comes to Lance...I think he was causing some problems (not all of the problems, but a lot of them.). What was so frustrating for me about Lance, was that in the first part of the season, he showed how great he could be for this team. Then the second half showed why it might be better for us to move on. Even still, our team had some flaws that having a Hill/Lance/PG backcourt was never going to change. Mainly...we couldn't shoot. Our only pure shooter is a power forward. Let's talk about Miami's great shooters..or San Antonio's great shooters. You can't win a championship without them. Having Miles in with the starting lineup is going to do a lot for a lot of players. (Like, every single player on the court.) Even if he's not a better player than Lance, or even if he's not the type of player we were looking for. (point guard.)

    Granted, I'm still holding out silly hope that we get Dragic. I don't know with what..but I'll continue to hope.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Heck no.
    I could go individually through the stats, but since PER is designed as a catch-all

    PER:
    Danny 11-12: 18.6
    Lance 12-13: 11.8
    Lance 13-14: 14.7
    CJ Miles 13-14: 16.0

    Another ironically humorous thing, people like to mention Lance's TS% being the highest on the team of 56.4%, last year CJ's was 56.9%

    CJ isn't going to bring the rebounding/assists that Lance does, but CJ is a better pure scorer than Lance, and fills a bigger need IMHO.
    Last edited by Since86; 07-21-2014 at 01:40 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  23. #163
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    I don't know why people keep saying that. It's been cited repeatedly and you can go see for yourself if you read the CBA, the player option in the middle of the contract is NOT POSSIBLE. You CANNOT give a player option in year 3 of a 5 year contract. It is against the CBA, so clearly this DID NOT happen. Quit saying it did. This article is worthless because half of it is based on a provably false premise.
    Dude... you've said this now a few times --- you need to read. "In year 3" was never once stated. You assumed "year 3" when they said "midway", which means towards the middle of something. Which could very easily (and is the way I took it) mean at first opportunity (year 4). The article is just fine, you just are making your own interpretation and then taking it way too literally. Therefore, you don't have to make the crazy assumption that this article is now null and void and worthless because of one misinterpretation on your part.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 07-21-2014 at 01:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I could go individually through the stats, but since PER is designed as a catch-all

    PER:
    Danny 11-12: 18.6
    Lance 12-13: 11.8
    Lance 13-14: 14.7
    CJ Miles 13-14: 16.0

    Another ironically humorous thing, people like to mention Lance's TS% being the highest on the team of 56.4%, last year CJ's was 56.9%

    CJ isn't going to bring the rebounding/assists that Lance does, but CJ is a better pure scorer than Lance, and fills a bigger need IMHO.
    I just watch the games.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I just watch the games.
    We all just watch the games.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I just watch the games.
    Granger was a much better play than Lance was when Lance replaced him, I don't know you can even argue that, Lance wasn't even getting minutes the year before.

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  31. #167
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Dude... you've said this now a few times --- you need to read. "In year 3" was never once stated. You assumed "year 3" when they said "midway", which means towards the middle of something. Which could very easily (and is the way I took it) mean at first opportunity (year 4). The article is just fine, you just are making your own interpretation and then taking it way too literally. Therefore, you don't have to make the crazy assumption that this article is now null and void and worthless because of one misinterpretation on your part.



    "Except that according to Bird, the Pacers were willing to offer a shorter-term contract that would have given Stephenson the chance to cash in should his game continue to grow the way both he and Bird believe it will. The Pacers were also willing, however grudgingly, to give Stephenson a player option midway through a five-year contract so that he could opt-out and test the market once the cap money increased."

    Even if "midway" does not mean "midway", the phrase "once the cap money increased" indicates an option after year two. (New CBA is coming after two years.) Kravitz is incorrect, and either he made up or misunderstood what Bird said, or if he got this from Bird, he is presenting deliberately misleading information.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I just watch the games.
    I watch the games too. Pre-injury Granger was better than Lance is currently, and there was no comparison between the two in 12-13.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Dude... you've said this now a few times --- you need to read. "In year 3" was never once stated. You assumed "year 3" when they said "midway", which means towards the middle of something. Which could very easily (and is the way I took it) mean at first opportunity (year 4). The article is just fine, you just are making your own interpretation and then taking it way too literally. Therefore, you don't have to make the crazy assumption that this article is now null and void and worthless because of one misinterpretation on your part.
    I've made only 1 post in regards to this. I have exactly 1 post in this topic before this reply. I have not said it a few times. That, along with everything else you've said here is incorrect. Try harder to state something accurate in the future.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Thanks, pretty sure it has been reported that the Pacers did, which is probably why people keep repeating it. (Which, a reporter being wrong is not unusual).
    Sorry if it seems like I was jumping down your throat in particular, you were just the most recent of a dozen people repeatedly getting it wrong. I think it frustrated me more to see it from you because usually your posts are more accurate/insightful than the average.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I just watch the games.
    Ohhh, special.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Ohhh, special.
    Sometimes I wonder why we even keep score in sports if statistics are so meaningless.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Sometimes I wonder why we even keep score in sports if statistics are so meaningless.
    They should decide the winner by applause. Then again, I think that's too formal a stat to track.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I'm just envious. He gets to watch games, that no one else gets too.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I have a feeling that his season people are going to see how Lance and Danny are not as good as their PD cheerleaders think. I said it last year when you all were debating who would start :a healthy Granger or Lance. I said neither will be on the team next year, and that isn't completely a bad thing.

    I think the spacing will be better. I think the Lance issues were overlooked. I think the Roy is a mental midget, but we already made an investment in him. Not having Lance will help his head. I think Paul George will be consistent off the call running through screens without Lance pounding the ball into the pine. I think our team will generate guts in the season and not depend on Lance in this department.

    Yes I think the East is better so no I don't think we will have as great November and December as last year. But our play will be more consistent, which will help us in the playoffs.

    Lance is a great talent. I am not sure he is a great teammate. And for those downplaying that, we will see that truth come to light in the next two seasons.

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