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Thread: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    It was all his agents doing. Anybody who thinks otherwise just doesn't understand the role of a sports agent. Its doubtful Lance even talked to Larry in the negotiations. You dont' want to damage the the player - team relationship by negotiating directly. The Agents tell the players exactly what they should sign. They spin the legalese so that the player can understand and tell them or guide them in the best direction they see fit. Sports Agencies set up their clients entire lives. Need a house in Charlotte? Don't worry Lance I got a guy who can find you a great place. Need wealth management? Don't worry I set you up with weekly allowance. In every single interview an athlete gives where the conversation of a contract talks pop up the athlete says "I just let my agent handle everything"

    You think Lance goes into FA thinking....I want 14 mil a year? Nope, its more like "My agent tells me we should looking for 14-15 mil" Thats part of the pitch of them being your agent. They tell you how great you are and how much money they want to get for you.

    Thats how all these first time FA's go about it, because they don't know **** about negotiating a contract.

    Honestly in this situation it more like the Agent was more concerned with growing their client list because of the opportunities being affiliated with Jordan. As it could have been a pride thing. They scoffed at the Pacers in Bird and probably didnt want to look weak by coming back to take Larry's original offer. Sometimes pride just gets in the way of everything simple. It should have been a very simple process for Lance. Then his agent got into his ear.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 07-20-2014 at 11:13 PM.
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  3. #77
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    I'm not believing any of this when Kravitz doesn't know that you can't have opt out more than a year before the contract expires. He made that up. What else did he make up? The family remark was also entirely inappropriate and unprofessional. Kravitz is trash.
    Was this something changed in the last CBA? I honestly don't know, so I'm asking. For example, Lebron, Wade and Bosh all had two years left when they opted out this summer.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Was this something changed in the last CBA? I honestly don't know, so I'm asking. For example, Lebron, Wade and Bosh all had two years left when they opted out this summer.
    Yes.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    But the thing is, stretch 5's can't guard him. So what The Pacers need to do and what Roy needs to do is two fold. Number one, figure out a way to hide this issue on defense. Number two, figure out a way to punish teams for playing their stretch five. Roy was playing too poorly to do the second, and really to do the first.

    Honestly, I think Roy's collapse has far more to do with Roy's collapse than it has to do with the rest of the league. Dwight Howard can't guard stretch 5's either, but he makes teams pay for playing that way.
    We have seen Roy resurrect his game and he better get that done next year. What I've seen is that teams have adjusted to him and he isn't able to adjust to them. I know that isn't good news for the Pacers but that's what I saw in the playoffs and quite frankly most of 2014.

    Also, it does not take a great defender to stop Roy. It requires either a stocky guy who will push him off balance. He also gets winded chasing stretch 5's so he's not able to make teams pay. That's what we saw happen in Atlanta as he fell apart.

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    Default Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I wanted us to keep Lance from a talent perspective but it's pretty obvious he didn't want to be here, has the world's worst agent, or possibly both. I say see ya later... It's understandable Bird is dumbfounded by how this entire situation played out.

    I'm just looking forward to the game Lance comes back to BLF and tries to force a triple double on his old home court. I'll set the over/under at 9.5 turnovers.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    The funny thing about people thinking lance will see a better offense in Charlotte is that Charlotte was one of the few teams that had a worse offense than the pacers.
    Actually, from February on, only Philly had a worse offense than the Pacers, which basically means the Pacers had the worst offense of all NBA teams in the second half of the season. Unless we want to blame Lance for our offense being so awful, it's not crazy to think Charlotte could have a better offense next year.

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  12. #82

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    If he really wanted to be "the man" with his new contract I believe there would be a lot of selfishness on his part. Now we can read about him fighting with Gerald Henderson and Kimba Walker all season.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    In Lance's introduction he claimed the Charlotte team was like family. What a disloyal brat.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I wouldn't underestimate the value that Lance sees in having direct access to Jordan from a basketball mentoring standpoint as arguably the greatest wing of all time as well as connections with Nike and Jordan's own brands for future endorsement opportunities that Lance and/or his agent might think are real possibilities with the superstar they believe that he will become, especially in a better offensive structure than the Pacers have.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Lance left because he wanted to play better basketball on the offensive end. I think he has a solid chance to do so with Charlotte.
    Charlotte has actually been a worse offensive team than us both in 13-14 and 12-13.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

    http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/year/2013

    I could see your point if Lance was going to a good offensive team like Phoenix or Minnesota but he went to a worse offensive team than ours.

    Personally, I believe that Lance went to Charlotte because he wants to be the star of a team and he can do that in Charlotte.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Charlotte has actually been a worse offensive team than us both in 13-14 and 12-13.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

    http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/year/2013

    I could see your point if Lance was going to a good offensive team like Phoenix or Minnesota but he went to a worse offensive team than ours.

    Personally, I believe that Lance went to Charlotte because he wants to be the star of a team and he can do that in Charlotte.
    KYP (Know Your Personal)

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  20. #87
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    1) Article is wrong. "The Pacers were also willing, however grudgingly, to give Stephenson a player option midway through a five-year contract so that he could opt-out and test the market once the cap money increased." CBA only allows options for last year of contract (Rookie contracts excepted). There is no way to give a player option "midway through" a five year contract. (What would that even mean? At year 3 ASB?).

    This calls everything else in the article into question.

    2) Note also that Kravitz does not write that the Pacers were willing to give a 3 year contract at the same $ Charlotte did. (Earlier reports (can't remember where) said that Pacers wanted to shave off money/year on the 3-year deal.))

    In short, I see it that Bird messed up, and played hardball too much. He is now trying (through Kravitz) to pawn the blame on Stevenson or his agent.
    Yup. That's some lazy reporting by Kravitz.

    If Bird really thinks Lance is the team's best player, why does he want to pay him like the 4th best? There's a disconnect here.

    One way or another, we messed up. We handcuffed ourselves with overpaid role player deals (including this year, before Lance could sign - so much for being top priority), and thus lost all flexibility to give Lance the deal he wanted. This part is telling:

    When Bird met with Stephenson, his family and his agent the first night of free agency, he had a couple of five-year options and was sure one of them was going to be acceptable. But a few days later, Ebanks called back Bird and told him, "I don't think this is going to work. I don't believe you have the money available to re-sign Lance.''
    Once the Pacers committed to CJ Miles, each and every Pacer fan was left scratching his or her head trying to figure out how we can still fit Lance in. We were all wondering what kind of clever move Larry had in reserve. Turns out, his clever strategy was to hope that Lance really liked his initial offers.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    If Bird really thinks Lance is the team's best player, why does he want to pay him like the 4th best? There's a disconnect here.
    Because that's what Lance's market commanded.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Because that's what Lance's market commanded.
    Oh sure. I don't mind that our initial bid was a (lowball) starting salary of $7.6m. What I'm astounded with is that we killed our ability to increase that initial offer. Especially for a guy we apparently thought highly of.

    Also, maybe Larry Bird should just shut up. He's said publicly several times that Lance is the most talented player on the team - put yourself in Lance's shoes, how would you feel if your boss praises you extravagantly then gives you an offer that is significantly lower than that of your colleagues'?

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Oh sure. I don't mind that our initial bid was a (lowball) starting salary of $7.6m. What I'm astounded with is that we killed our ability to increase that initial offer. Especially for a guy we apparently thought highly of.

    Also, maybe Larry Bird should just shut up. He's said publicly several times that Lance is the most talented player on the team - put yourself in Lance's shoes, how would you feel if your boss praises you extravagantly then gives you an offer that is significantly lower than that of your colleagues'?
    Did anyone offer Lance more than $44 mil? No. Did anyone offer him an 8 figure salary per year? No.

    Why would we need to increase our offer then?

    Personally, I don't believe that Lance rejected our offer because he preferred Charlotte's contract. I believe that what he really wanted was the opportunity to lead a team. He wanted to be the star of his team and he couldn't get that here.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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  28. #91
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Did anyone offer Lance more than $44 mil? No. Did anyone offer him an 8 figure salary per year? No.
    Reportedly Dallas 2 year, $20m. Got pulled because Parsons wasn't matched.

    EDIT: Re total money argument. I believe this is where Bird somehow totally misunderstood Lance. In the Pacers' view, more guaranteed money than anyone else should win the deal. That's why Bird was so surprised. Lance though, preferred a short contract, trusting his ability to get a richer deal down the road.

    The real questions to ask Larry Bird are 1) Were we willing to offer Lance the same 3 year $27m with TO that Charlotte did; and 2) If not why. I'll bet 2) would be more about the contracts we already have on the team as opposed to Lance's market value.
    Last edited by wintermute; 07-21-2014 at 04:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Not that I'm terribly torn up over it... but the entire scenario smacks of stupidity on the part of Lance's party. The contract he signed is just asinine. He turned town a better offer, value, and then when he was presented with a group of contract scenarios, he didn't choose the right one.
    1. We don't know that Bird & Co. had allready offered their own 3-year deal and that player option when Charlotte started knocking on the door, do we? OR did we only THINK about offering it when it was clear Charlotte was going to offer that and think: "oh, we can offer something like that aswell, we will let him know and then he will come back (crawling) to us"?

    Except, and I happily continue speculating here, Lance maybe was done with the whole process and maybe was offended by our offers and negotiating and wanted to get the Charlotte offer signed ASAP, leaving the Pacers no room to get back into it or maybe he and his agent were convinced what was offered from the Pacers side was really it, helped by Birds own rhetoric about this beying our offer and "if its not enough (for Lance) then its not enough and we have to move on" which is EXACTLY what the Pacers seemed to be doing by quickly signing two bench guys (yes, I like Miles, but he should be a guy coming off the bench) consequently. I mean lets not act like those signings weren't a signal either, especially with Miles contract beying significant in amount, length of the contract AND the position he plays.

    2. Lance, IMHO understandably, didn't think our offer was better. He thought it was rather on the low end and when he realized he was not going to get anything better this summer from anyone he wanted a shorter contract, so he would have a new chance to increase his value on a relatively short term, instead of having to play 5 years on a contract which he thought underpaid him (his first 3 years from our offer was substantially less then what Charlotte offered him).

    Either way, it's all done with now, I just don't like to see people suddenly blaming Lance for ALL problems with our team this past season, downplaying his importance and qualities for our team and blowing up his issues and his perceived issues, now we didn't get him back. Comes across as a bit of opportunistic and revanchist to me, aswell as maybe letting Bird (whom I like btw) off the hook a little too easy for what transpired. Offcourse, some people never liked him in the first place.
    Last edited by Mourning; 07-21-2014 at 05:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    1. We don't know that Bird & Co. had allready offered their own 3-year deal and that player option when Charlotte started knocking on the door, do we? OR did we only THINK about offering it when it was clear Charlotte was going to offer that and think: "oh, we can offer something like that aswell, we will let him know and then he will come back (crawling) to us"?

    Except, and I happily continue speculating here, Lance maybe was done with the whole process and maybe was offended by our offers and negotiating and wanted to get the Charlotte offer signed ASAP, leaving the Pacers no room to get back into it or maybe he and his agent were convinced what was offered from the Pacers side was really it, helped by Birds own rhetoric about this beying our offer and "if its not enough (for Lance) then its not enough and we have to move on" which is EXACTLY what the Pacers seemed to be doing by quickly signing two bench guys (yes, I like Miles, but he should be a guy coming off the bench) consequently. I mean lets not act like those signings weren't a signal either, especially with Miles contract beying significant in amount, length of the contract AND the position he plays.

    2. Lance, IMHO understandably, didn't think our offer was better. He thought it was rather on the low end and when he realized he was not going to get anything better this summer from anyone he wanted a shorter contract, so he would have a new chance to increase his value on a relatively short term, instead of having to play 5 years on a contract which he thought underpaid him (his first 3 years from our offer was substantially less then what Charlotte offered him).

    Either way, it's all done with now, I just don't like to see people suddenly blaming Lance for ALL problems with our team this past season, downplaying his importance and qualities for our team and blowing up his issues and his perceived issues, now we didn't get him back. Comes across as a bit of opportunistic and revanchist to me, aswell as maybe letting Bird (whom I like btw) off the hook a little too easy for what transpired. Offcourse, some people never liked him in the first place.
    Good post. The narrative changed from "OMG LARRY KEEP LANCE" to "THANK GOD LANCE THE BALLHOG AND LOCKEROOM KILLER IS GONE!!!" quickly

    The truth is of Lance's loss is somewhere in between these two extremes.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Reportedly Dallas 2 year, $20m. Got pulled because Parsons wasn't matched.
    I remember Dallas having an interest in Lance but I never saw if they actually submitted an offer or not. I was under the impression that they never actually offered him a contract. So, thanks for the info

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    EDIT: Re total money argument. I believe this is where Bird somehow totally misunderstood Lance. In the Pacers' view, more guaranteed money than anyone else should win the deal. That's why Bird was so surprised. Lance though, preferred a short contract, trusting his ability to get a richer deal down the road.

    The real questions to ask Larry Bird are 1) Were we willing to offer Lance the same 3 year $27m with TO that Charlotte did; and 2) If not why. I'll bet 2) would be more about the contracts we already have on the team as opposed to Lance's market value.
    Doesn't the article posted in the OP mention that Larry would absolutely offer Lance that same deal but the Pacers never got a chance to do so?

    Personally, I'm absolutely sure that Bird would have offered him that same deal if we were given the chance to match.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Good post. The narrative changed from "OMG LARRY KEEP LANCE" to "THANK GOD LANCE THE BALLHOG AND LOCKEROOM KILLER IS GONE!!!" quickly

    The truth is of Lance's loss is somewhere in between these two extremes.
    I don't think that the "OMG LARRY KEEP LANCE" crowd and the "THANK GOD LANCE THE BALLHOG AND LOCKEROOM KILLER IS GONE!!!" crowd consist of the same people.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Doesn't the article posted in the OP mention that Larry would absolutely offer Lance that same deal but the Pacers never got a chance to do so?

    Personally, I'm absolutely sure that Bird would have offered him that same deal if we were given the chance to match.
    My guess is that the hardball negotiations from the very beginning convinced Lance he may get a match from Bird, but nothing more. At that point, because of basketball reasons—and/or the ability to be more of a central offensive character—he decided he'd rather be in Charlotte even if Bird matched.

    I've said in previous posts he made the decision for basketball reasons rather than money. I'll augment that: money is always a huge factor. But the tipping point for his decision imo was the type of basketball he would be playing.

    That actually makes it a little less personal with Bird. The type of team and defensive emphasis and players with offensive challenges and locked up contracts are something Larry built over a long time—and Roy's killer contract and Mahinmi's small one weren't even Bird's doing. Lance and Bird found themselves at an impasse that perhaps couldn't be solved.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I don't think that the "OMG LARRY KEEP LANCE" crowd and the "THANK GOD LANCE THE BALLHOG AND LOCKEROOM KILLER IS GONE!!!" crowd consist of the same people.
    I've noticed a handful of people who fit both categories.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I don't think that the "OMG LARRY KEEP LANCE" crowd and the "THANK GOD LANCE THE BALLHOG AND LOCKEROOM KILLER IS GONE!!!" crowd consist of the same people.
    Sure, a lot of us have been much more pro or anti Lance, but how you can not see some shift in general with the people with opinions in between (before it was clear he was gone) is pretty much beyond me. Sorry .
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I find it hard to believe that what happened with Lance surprised the Pacers managment. You have Bird,Pritchard and Walsh there.
    They knew very well that he might move on. Not to consider they might lose him would be absurd. We know none of the details on what goes on with team chemistry. They do.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I finally got to read the full article.

    Odd quotes from Larry, kinda un Larry like. I hope we can still be friends sorta thing. Doesn't sound like Larry to me. I'm not sure what went on honestly. It may just have been as simple as a young man wanting to make his own mark on the world. I get that, if that's the case.

    No hard feelings Lance, just like most ex Pacers, good luck except against us.

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