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Thread: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

  1. #26

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I have never felt betrayed at anyone leaving, so I don't know if I can quite call it that. This is a first for me. This just makes me sick to the point that I can't wait for the Colts to start so I can forget about it for a bit. I've sat here since he left with a sick feeling in my stomach. To see my favorite organization groom a severe underdog into a star was great. To see him leave before he even reaches his prime is sickening. Maybe in the end Lance respected Jordan more than Bird? Maybe the teammates pushed him away? All I know is this loss hurts from a franchise stand point. How could he have left the same money on the table to go somewhere else? I still suspect Jordan has something to do with it, but I don't know anymore. But to have Jordan steal him away from the Pacers hurts even more for me for some reason.

    All I can hope is this is one of those moves that works out best for both sides. Though it's hard to see how losing an asset like Lance for nothing is good.

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  3. #27

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    If he simply wanted to move on, then why meet with the Pacers or continue to practice in the Fieldhouse throughout free agency?

    I do believe he may have been offended by the Pacers offer, and I believe that meeting directly with Michael Jordan had an influence, but I don't for a second believe he wanted to leave Indiana for a worse deal.

    What I think happened is this: Lance's agent thought he could get more from us, gave the Pacers the impression he wouldn't re-sign with us in order to increase our offer, we took our offer off the table, and then Lance signed a worse deal with Charlotte.

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  5. #28

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I think Kravitz is right on the couple thousand dollars more per year average, his Hornets contract on average is like 300k more than the Pacers per year.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Looks like the market hurt Lance's feelings and he wanted to take it out on Larry and the Pacers.

    Kind of odd, but whatever. It is done with now. I have mentally moved on.

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  8. #30
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I don't know how to judge players for money and I understand that bigs always make more than wings/guards but if Roy Hibbert is worth 14 million a year then Lance is worth at least that much.
    To say something like this is to completely ignore how important Hibbert has been the the Pacers success and failure the past 3 seasons. I can't believe someone could have watched the Pacers the past 3 seasons and not realize how much more important Roy is to the Pacers than anyone else on this team. Lance's importance to this team doesn't even compare to Roy's.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Kind of odd, but whatever. It is done with now. I have mentally moved on.
    Yeah, this is where I'm at. Over it, past it, let's move on.

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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    To say something like this is to completely ignore how important Hibbert has been the the Pacers success and failure the past 3 seasons. I can't believe someone could have watched the Pacers the past 3 seasons and not realize how much more important Roy is to the Pacers than anyone else on this team. Lance's importance to this team doesn't even compare to Roy's.
    In other words: when Roy plays at his beas we are truly one of the elite teams, when he plays poorly we tend to struggle. I don't think anyone can truly argue otherwise.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 07-20-2014 at 07:15 PM.
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    Yeah, that's the problem. I don't think anyone on this board is as big of a jerk in person as they come across on here. Except maybe Nuntius. Dude is impossibly nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    He is a saint, cdash. If a mosquito landed on his arm trying to bite him he would tell it " Go on son, do your thing".

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  14. #33

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
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    Am I the only one who read that article and came away with the impression that Kravitz slanted it in a completely different direction than Bird's comments intended? It's almost like he had a narrative already and then sprinkled in a couple quotes from Bird to fill in the blanks.

    How can you have access to the team and all the resources available to actually do some real journalism and come away with some message board fodder?



    Was the bolded part really necessary? Regardless, contracts aren't structured by averages. Kravitz would know the Pacers' actual first year offer of $7.6 million if he actually wanted to tell the truth rather than slant his article in an intended direction.



    Lance Stephenson's first two years: $9 million + $9 million = $17.5 million? No, Bob, your math is not right. And it's not "just a tad" more. It's about $3 million.



    Wrong again.



    Except you can't put options in the middle of guaranteed contracts,. Again, Kravitz would know this if he did some actual work once in a while.

    Via Larry Coon:
    http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q59



    Back to Kravitz:



    Except they'd have to deal with the luxury tax had he accepted the 5/44 offer as well. And I'd say $9 million with a team option for $9.5 million in the third year is pretty close to eight figures.

    Ultimately, Kravitz derives Lance's worth from what the Pacers were able to offer him, not what the Pacers wanted to offer him. There's a difference, and you get an appreciation for that difference when you hear Bird say things like this:



    Whether people like Kravitz want to rationalize losing Lance by taking shots at his game or his character to make themselves feel better about losing him or by implying he "wanted to leave" as part of a PR campaign to make the other side look worse in negotiations is another story. But this article, to put it simply, is pure garbage.
    Yes this is a terrible article by a terrible writer. Mistakes and spinning quotes.

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  16. #34
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Can we now put away the idea the Pacers didn't want Lance back? Of course they wanted him back... You don't waste money on producing an inhouse movie/documentary to entice him to return, let alone offer a market value 5 year contract if you don't really want him back.

    I will forever think the Pacers thought a 5 year guaranteed contract at current market value would trump anything else Lance might get barring someone opening the vault. And so thought ultimately Lance or his agent would decide a bird in the hand was worth 2 in the bush and take the security.

    OTOH, Lance seems to live in the moment and enjoyed being tutored by an NBA Legend like Bird. He probably assumes the relationship will be the same with Jordan... and if he enjoyed that attention from Bird I can only imagine he'd relish the chance to have MJ in that role. Although he might be jumping to conclusions about whether Jordan will actually play that role for him. Or have the same tolerances and expectations.

    Then I'm sure he or his agent thinks they'll both be cashing in in a few years. Which might be true... or not.

    But in the end... I don't think it's a stretch to say the Pacers wanted to keep Lance and are surprised they weren't able to make it happen.
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  18. #35
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Like I've said all along, don't blame Larry, don't blame Lance, blame Lance's agent.

    I wouldn't be shocked if Lance fires him within a year or two.
    really? how? if an adult completely hands one of the most important decisions of his life to someone else and is not able to figure out even the most obvius aspects of that decision, that tells me one thing about him. he's a certified idiot.

  19. #36
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I don't blame Larry at all. He gave Lance a more than fair offer. Lance just has $$$$ in his eyes, which I don't blame him for really either. What I am sick of is hearing how Lance was offended by the Pacers offer. How he expected 12 to 14 million, after how he behaved, especially in the post season, this man is hearing some bad advice. Which is why he will be getting 9 mil a year. He has far more to prove than he seems to think he does.

    It sucks that Lance is gone, he's a dynamic player. But I think the Pacers will be fine. I hope we make another move, but if not, it just means next man up. This team was in the ECF when Lance was still a nobody. We we're arguably a better team. And if his antics really did harm the locker room, then things might get better. We need PG to continue to grow, which I fully expect. We need West to be our rock, which I fully expect. We need Roy to be the all star year round, which I'm very unsure about. We need Hill to be aggressive and lead, which I'm also unsure about. Quite frankly we needed those things whether Lance was here or not. And those are really what will determine how good this team will be.

    Also we need the bench to not be god awful.

    We need to see a different team this year, that was the case with or without Lance. Maybe without Lance it will be easier to become different.

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  21. #37

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    I don't blame Larry at all. He gave Lance a more than fair offer. Lance just has $$$$ in his eyes, which I don't blame him for really either. What I am sick of is hearing how Lance was offended by the Pacers offer. How he expected 12 to 14 million, after how he behaved, especially in the post season, this man is hearing some bad advice. Which is why he will be getting 9 mil a year. He has far more to prove than he seems to think he does.

    It sucks that Lance is gone, he's a dynamic player. But I think the Pacers will be fine. I hope we make another move, but if not, it just means next man up. This team was in the ECF when Lance was still a nobody. We we're arguably a better team. And if his antics really did harm the locker room, then things might get better. We need PG to continue to grow, which I fully expect. We need West to be our rock, which I fully expect. We need Roy to be the all star year round, which I'm very unsure about. We need Hill to be aggressive and lead, which I'm also unsure about. Quite frankly we needed those things whether Lance was here or not. And those are really what will determine how good this team will be.

    Also we need the bench to not be god awful.

    We need to see a different team this year, that was the case with or without Lance. Maybe without Lance it will be easier to become different.



    Sorry, but until Hill is gone and one of our bigs is traded in for a younger, quicker, athletic floor-runner who can also shoot? We ain't goin' no place.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    The thing that I keep coming back to is that it would have been in his agent's best interest for Lance to take the Pacers offer. Maybe he will still be Lance's agent in two or three years when the new contract is up but still...
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  24. #39
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Call me crazy now, but if Bird sticks around and Lance opts out in two years, it wouldn't surprise me if he makes another run at Lance in free agency. It is pretty clear from this article that he wants to maintain a good relationship with Lance.

    This is not wishful thinking, just an inclination. I am personally ready to move on and see what this team can do next year. Is it November yet?
    Last edited by idioteque; 07-20-2014 at 07:43 PM.

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  26. #40
    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    To say something like this is to completely ignore how important Hibbert has been the the Pacers success and failure the past 3 seasons.
    so Hibbert should get extra money because he can play so badly that the entire team goes in the toilet.
    Last edited by dal9; 07-20-2014 at 07:52 PM.

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  28. #41
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    so Hibbert should get extra money because he can play so badly that the entire team goes in the toilet.
    No the difference is Roy was restricted and the market set his price. The pacers decided to match it. With Lance it looks like they offered him pretty close to the market and unfortunately the Pacers didn't get a chance to match or not.

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  30. #42

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Lance wanted to be the star on the team.

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  32. #43
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by ThA HoyA View Post
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    Even if it the overall contract was less per year than the 3 year deal Charlotte offered. Having the protection of 5 years with a player option is a no brainer vs a 3 year at slightly higher but with a team option
    Not if you think you are worth much more and rather use the coming few years to improve your worth. He also almost was never injured, dude is really freaking strong build, so he wanted to take that chance. I dont see it as stupid, retarded, dumb or whatever.

    His agent will probably have some explaining to do, also am wondering if Bird and co. actually had talked about that player option and shortercontract with Lance and/or his agent OR they had the intention of proposing that in further negotations that they at the very least seemed to expect were very likely to happen, given that they probably thought they were in the saddle in these negotiations with so many team not beying able to offer enough money to Lance.

    Were they actually still actively negotiating or merely waiting for him to come to them and had they expressed these points of a shorter contract and a player option beying a possibility? Those are the main questions I would find interesting to know.
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  33. #44

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerPenguins View Post
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    Lance wanted to be the star on the team.
    Exactly this, and with Paul George here, that was never happening, regardless of how much people liked Lance.

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  35. #45

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    I think Kravitz is right on the couple thousand dollars more per year average, his Hornets contract on average is like 300k more than the Pacers per year.
    the way to look at it, from Lance's perspective:

    Indiana's offer vs Charlotte's offer, purely by cash.

    2014/2015...........Indiana $7.640 million, Charlotte $9.000 million....difference of $1,360,000
    2015/2016...........Indiana $8.213 million, Charlotte $9.000 million....difference of $787,000
    2016/2017...........Indiana $8.829 million, Charlotte $9.500 million....difference of $671,000
    2017/2018...........Indiana $9.491 million+, Charlotte $0 FREE AGENT (in Lance's mind: 15 million)
    2018/2019...........Indiana $10.203 million+, Charlotte $0 FREE AGENT (in Lance's mind: 16 million)


    so Lance gets 2.8 M more over 3 years,


    and in his mind anyway, 11 M more over the last 2 years


    now our 3 year offer, we just don't know what it was
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  37. #46
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    If Lance gets injured (or fat - wouldn't put it past him) he'll be kicking himself in the *** for not accepting Larry's offer
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



  38. #47
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    To say something like this is to completely ignore how important Hibbert has been the the Pacers success and failure the past 3 seasons. I can't believe someone could have watched the Pacers the past 3 seasons and not realize how much more important Roy is to the Pacers than anyone else on this team. Lance's importance to this team doesn't even compare to Roy's.
    There is no way to compare the highs and lows of each player because Lance (nor any of the other players for that matter) have had the lows that Roy has produced. Not one time since he has been a starter has Lance had a game like game 3 vs. Atlanta that Roy had.

    I know this, we've won games in particular playoff games, in spite of Roy at times. We've won because of him as well to be fair but nobody has the highs and lows he does.

    So his high's and low's by all rights should balance out to a more modest contract, however again I know that is not the way of the NBA. Big's get paid.


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  40. #48
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    Exactly this, and with Paul George here, that was never happening, regardless of how much people liked Lance.
    This is close, but in my opinion not exactly right.

    Lance left because he wanted to play better basketball on the offensive end. I think he has a solid chance to do so with Charlotte.

    He will be able to pass to Jefferson in the post, and he will be working with another playmaker in Kemba Walker. In Indiana, he had two laughable centers to pass to, his point guard wasn't very good at being a point guard, and the main go-to guy (Paul George) is not very efficient as the key scorer. Because of contracts, that wasn't going to change. Then you have the head scratchingly bad offensive coaching we've watched from Vogel the past several years.

    Because of his two five year offers from the Pacers Lance was going to be chained to that dreadful offensive system for a long time. (I don't believe this supposed three year offer. Dal9 pretty much exposed this article as attempted damage control. But even if true, it's still a few more years of exasperating offense.)

    I don't think it's all that hard to figure out. At his press conference, I thought Lance looked pretty darn excited about playing some real offense.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 07-20-2014 at 08:55 PM.
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  42. #49
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I don't know how to judge players for money and I understand that bigs always make more than wings/guards but if Roy Hibbert is worth 14 million a year then Lance is worth at least that much.

    Now having said that I don't want it to sound like I think losing Lance is the end all be all of anything, but I do think being tied to Roy is the end all be all of everything.
    That will change eventually as well. Maybe not this year but certainly the following year.
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  43. #50
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    To say something like this is to completely ignore how important Hibbert has been the the Pacers success and failure the past 3 seasons. I can't believe someone could have watched the Pacers the past 3 seasons and not realize how much more important Roy is to the Pacers than anyone else on this team. Lance's importance to this team doesn't even compare to Roy's.
    This had better be the truth going forward. Hibbert was exposed badly in the playoffs. Not only that, he is getting worse, not better as a player.

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