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Thread: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

  1. #1

    Default Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    http://www.indystar.com/story/sports...?showmenu=true

    Looks like Lance left because he wanted to or his agent duped him, from the article, Pacers were willing to give Lance a player option.
    Except that according to Bird, the Pacers were willing to offer a shorter-term contract that would have given Stephenson the chance to cash in should his game continue to grow the way both he and Bird believe it will. The Pacers were also willing, however grudgingly, to give Stephenson a player option midway through a five-year contract so that he could opt-out and test the market once the cap money increased.

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I knew it. Lance wanted to be the man and probably never intended on coming back.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Like I've said all along, don't blame Larry, don't blame Lance, blame Lance's agent.

    I wouldn't be shocked if Lance fires him within a year or two.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I always doubted Lance and PG could co-exist going forward and I was right. Lance's ego got in the way of any team goals.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Wow I am surprised.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Somebody in the comments section of the article blamed Kravitz for Lance leaving. Just when I thought I had seen it all here

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Stephenson apologists better come up with a better excuse why Lance left now. Lance left because he wanted to leave. He couldn't take playing second fiddle to PG which he always will. Bird has got to feel almost back-stabbed by Lance's actions.

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  13. #8
    FREE LANCE MillerTime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    If Larry offered Lance 5 years $44 mill I could see Larry willing to do 3 years $27.5 mill.

    Going to Charlotte still doesn't make sense to me. He took a less secure contract (he could get injured) and went to a non-contender
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    This is terribly written.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    If Larry offered Lance 5 years $44 mill I could see Larry willing to do 3 years $27.5 mill.

    Going to Charlotte still doesn't make sense to me. He took a less secure contract (he could get injured) and went to a non-contender
    Even if it the overall contract was less per year than the 3 year deal Charlotte offered. Having the protection of 5 years with a player option is a no brainer vs a 3 year at slightly higher but with a team option

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Any additional info in the article that might shed some light to what went down?

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    I don't know how to judge players for money and I understand that bigs always make more than wings/guards but if Roy Hibbert is worth 14 million a year then Lance is worth at least that much.

    Now having said that I don't want it to sound like I think losing Lance is the end all be all of anything, but I do think being tied to Roy is the end all be all of everything.


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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    But Stephenson's people wanted more, wanted $12 million to $14 million from the Pacers, according to the team's president. They were looking for a $55 million contract. When the offer came in at $44 million, they scoffed.
    Looks like they took it personal

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Like I've said all along, don't blame Larry, don't blame Lance, blame Lance's agent.

    I wouldn't be shocked if Lance fires him within a year or two.
    You gotta put some blame on Lance. A player should know to make sure stuff like that is double checked. I don't doubt that his agent is an idiot, but a player should never blindly hand everything over without double checking. Lance has Larry Bird's number.

    I put the blame on team Lance, of which Lance is the CEO. This is one of the dumbest free agency decisions in the history of sports.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    You gotta put some blame on Lance. A player should know to make sure stuff like that is double checked. I don't doubt that his agent is an idiot, but a player should never blindly hand everything over without double checking. Lance has Larry Bird's number.

    I put the blame on team Lance, of which Lance is the CEO. This is one of the dumbest free agency decisions in the history of sports.
    Really. The player is the one who signs the contract. Blaming the agent is just silly IMO. If Lance wanted to be here he would be here.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Like I've said all along, don't blame Larry, don't blame Lance, blame Lance's agent.

    I wouldn't be shocked if Lance fires him within a year or two.

    I truly believe this as well. There's nothing about this deal that makes sense. Lance is smart enough to know he's a much better basketball fit for Indiana than Charlotte, and he's not going to be the man in Charlotte. I'm almost 100% sure this was his agent's mishandling. He took a worse deal, financially and basketball, to play in Charlotte.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I don't know how to judge players for money and I understand that bigs always make more than wings/guards but if Roy Hibbert is worth 14 million a year then Lance is worth at least that much.

    Now having said that I don't want it to sound like I think losing Lance is the end all be all of anything, but I do think being tied to Roy is the end all be all of everything.
    As someone who is beyond frustrated with Hibbert, I don't disagree with what you are saying. But Roy had a market willing to pay a premium for his services while Lance didn't. The Pacers were willing to guarantee more money than anyone else.

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  30. #18

    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Ok, to all who think this is all on Lance: did Lance look happy to be signing his contract with Charlotte?

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    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    1) Article is wrong. "The Pacers were also willing, however grudgingly, to give Stephenson a player option midway through a five-year contract so that he could opt-out and test the market once the cap money increased." CBA only allows options for last year of contract (Rookie contracts excepted). There is no way to give a player option "midway through" a five year contract. (What would that even mean? At year 3 ASB?).

    This calls everything else in the article into question.

    2) Note also that Kravitz does not write that the Pacers were willing to give a 3 year contract at the same $ Charlotte did. (Earlier reports (can't remember where) said that Pacers wanted to shave off money/year on the 3-year deal.))

    In short, I see it that Bird messed up, and played hardball too much. He is now trying (through Kravitz) to pawn the blame on Stevenson or his agent.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Well Lance will be full on Lance now. We've seen him laying in piles of money and eating wings in a strip club as well as multiple parodys on the blowing in Lebrons ear (Espys, office birthday video) I mean its all harmless so far, but Its full effect Born Ready now, no restraint now. Can't wait to see how he does on the court with no guidelines or the feeling the need to play for the team/under control. I'm guessing this is gonna be a train wreck honestly, with crazy awesome highlight mixed in. Regardless, I'm glad his nonsense is gone, but I'm wistful for that awesome talent. I hope it works out for him, same way I did for Ron, but I don't expect it to at all.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Ok, to all who think this is all on Lance: did Lance look happy to be signing his contract with Charlotte?

    No....because he was ignored by most of the league and didn't get his 12-14 per that he was seeking.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    As someone who is beyond frustrated with Hibbert, I don't disagree with what you are saying. But Roy had a market willing to pay a premium for his services while Lance didn't. The Pacers were willing to guarantee more money than anyone else.
    Yea it goes back to bigs getting paid, never forget that Jim McIlvaine was offered a huge (at the time) contract as a second year player after avg. only 2 pts and 2 rpg by the Sonics so they could have a big center.

    I hate it but it is just a fact of life even in this time when centers are not really held in high regard.


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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I truly believe this as well. There's nothing about this deal that makes sense. Lance is smart enough to know he's a much better basketball fit for Indiana than Charlotte, and he's not going to be the man in Charlotte. I'm almost 100% sure this was his agent's mishandling. He took a worse deal, financially and basketball, to play in Charlotte.
    So he's either foolish to not know all the details of his contract negotiations (doubtful) or he just wanted to leave and go to. another team, even if the contract was less lucrative financially.

    Why is it hard to believe that he simply wanted to move on? That makes a helluva lot more sense than him not knowing the details of his contract negotiations

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    1) Article is wrong. "The Pacers were also willing, however grudgingly, to give Stephenson a player option midway through a five-year contract so that he could opt-out and test the market once the cap money increased." CBA only allows options for last year of contract (Rookie contracts excepted). There is no way to give a player option "midway through" a five year contract. (What would that even mean? At year 3 ASB?).

    This calls everything else in the article into question.

    2) Note also that Kravitz does not write that the Pacers were willing to give a 3 year contract at the same $ Charlotte did. (Earlier reports (can't remember where) said that Pacers wanted to shave off money/year on the 3-year deal.))

    In short, I see it that Bird messed up, and played hardball too much. He is now trying (through Kravitz) to pawn the blame on Stevenson or his agent.
    While you're right about the CBA and player options, I don't see how Bird messed up. He doesn't need to lie about what he offered to Lance and what he and the FO would be willing to do. According to a previous article, Lance's team didnt give the Pacers a chance to match anyways.

    It sounds like he wanted a larger contract offer from the Pacers, was disappointed he didn't get it, and then decided to take the shorter contract elsewhere.
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    Yeah, that's the problem. I don't think anyone on this board is as big of a jerk in person as they come across on here. Except maybe Nuntius. Dude is impossibly nice.
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    He is a saint, cdash. If a mosquito landed on his arm trying to bite him he would tell it " Go on son, do your thing".

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    Default Re: Larry Bird stunned Lance left

    Am I the only one who read that article and came away with the impression that Kravitz slanted it in a completely different direction than Bird's comments intended? It's almost like he had a narrative already and then sprinkled in a couple quotes from Bird to fill in the blanks.

    How can you have access to the team and all the resources available to actually do some real journalism and come away with some message board fodder?

    If he had stayed, he would have earned a guaranteed $44 million, more than enough money and security to take care of his family, his children and their mothers. That comes out to an average of $8.8 million.
    Was the bolded part really necessary? Regardless, contracts aren't structured by averages. Kravitz would know the Pacers' actual first year offer of $7.6 million if he actually wanted to tell the truth rather than slant his article in an intended direction.

    Instead, he overreached and found himself doomed by his own pride, accepting a three-year deal, with a third year being a Charlotte Hornets' team option. It guarantees him only two years and $17.5 million. If he stays three years, he will make roughly $27 million. If my math is right, that's $9 million a year, just a tad more than the Pacers offered.
    Lance Stephenson's first two years: $9 million + $9 million = $17.5 million? No, Bob, your math is not right. And it's not "just a tad" more. It's about $3 million.

    So for a couple hundred thousand dollars, a pittance by basketball standards, Stephenson bolted the only home he's ever had in the NBA, a place where he has his biggest supporter in Larry Bird, a place where he is loved by fans despite his occasional forays into goofy behavior.
    Wrong again.

    Except that according to Bird, the Pacers were willing to offer a shorter-term contract that would have given Stephenson the chance to cash in should his game continue to grow the way both he and Bird believe it will. The Pacers were also willing, however grudgingly, to give Stephenson a player option midway through a five-year contract so that he could opt-out and test the market once the cap money increased.
    Except you can't put options in the middle of guaranteed contracts,. Again, Kravitz would know this if he did some actual work once in a while.

    Via Larry Coon:
    http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q59

    An option clause allows a contract to be extended for one additional season after the date it is scheduled to end.

    Player options were previously used as a way to give the player more money. A long-term deal was agreed upon with a player option after the player obtained Larry Bird rights. The player invoked the option, became a free agent, and then the team & player signed a new contract for more money using the Bird exception. However they closed this loophole by preventing player options and ETOs before all but the last season of a contract.
    Back to Kravitz:

    Stephenson and his agent believed Sir Lancelot belonged in eight-figure territory, $10 million or more, much more, and the Pacers were right to stand firm. Stephenson is a nice player, but he's not a $10-million-plus player, not yet anyway. If the Pacers had met that price, they would have been left with a thoroughly depleted bench and been forced to deal with the luxury tax.

    And in the end, Stephenson didn't get his eight figures.

    Not even close.
    Except they'd have to deal with the luxury tax had he accepted the 5/44 offer as well. And I'd say $9 million with a team option for $9.5 million in the third year is pretty close to eight figures.

    Ultimately, Kravitz derives Lance's worth from what the Pacers were able to offer him, not what the Pacers wanted to offer him. There's a difference, and you get an appreciation for that difference when you hear Bird say things like this:

    "It's just disappointing,'' Bird said. "When I'd go to practices, when he was on, he was by far our best player. And he worked. If you work as hard as he does, you're going to get better. I'm going to miss the kid, no question. And he's growing up. That stuff he pulled in the playoffs, that was out of the blue. But I knew how good Lance was and the value he brought to our team.''
    Whether people like Kravitz want to rationalize losing Lance by taking shots at his game or his character to make themselves feel better about losing him or by implying he "wanted to leave" as part of a PR campaign to make the other side look worse in negotiations is another story. But this article, to put it simply, is pure garbage.

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