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Thread: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

  1. #26

    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Okay I wish we would dispell this myth that G. Hill turns the ball over. During the 2013 Playoffs series against the the Pacers turned the ball over 111 times. Hill had 14 of them. Hardly a guy that coughs it up under pressure.

    This year against the Heat he had 9 the entire series.
    It's not turnovers that are the problem, it's that he struggles getting us into offensive sets. That's the reason Vogel had Lance handling the ball against Miami in the conference finals, most likely.

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  3. #27

    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    I really think he is. I never said Lance was a ballhog btw. OTOH why would Lance be incapable of improving elements of his game like other players do, while he is still young and has only two starting seasons behind him, ine of which in which he played a relatively limited role on offense?
    He could improve, but my focus is on this team and how WE AS A TEAM can improve, not if Lance can. Lance can improve in Charlotte all he wants, we lost him here in Indy, so i'm focusing on how we can improve from this past season, and Lance improving individually has nothing to do with that.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Okay I wish we would dispell this myth that G. Hill turns the ball over. During the 2013 Playoffs series against the the Pacers turned the ball over 111 times. Hill had 14 of them. Hardly a guy that coughs it up under pressure.

    This year against the Heat he had 9 the entire series.
    And how much did he create in those series? Im not simply talking about assists, but how active he was or better the lack there off? How often did he actually touch the ball and how often did he actually not just pass the ball from where it came? How quick was he setting up our, gulp, offense? I don't know the answers, but I have serious reservations about all those parameters with Hill. Simply put: I want Hill to be our starting SG where he belongs or as a 6th man. I like him a lot, but not as our starting PG. Never have and probably never will.
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    I don't hear a lot of disappointment or gnashing of teeth coming from the players, coaches, owners or even Larry Bird about losing Lance. That tells me the TEAM is overall fine with seeing him go which says a whole lot. I think Bird was his greatest supporter and even he had issues with him. I think coaches were torn about bringing him back but with all that good there was an equal part bad. Chemistry, in the end, is more important than talent when the chemistry otherwise is bad

    So, while I have been a strong Lance Stephenson supporter, no player is more important than the team and the last thing we need is one player ruining the Paul George era. It's really a great shame because he was in a perfect situation in Indy...an extremely good match with Paul George. I completely disagree with all this talk of the ball stopping with him as-if he could not possibly learn how to move it better. I do agree he pounded the air out of it some, but I don't think he was much different than all the other players.

    Personally, I am disappointed we lost that great of a talent. But I know there is a very good chance we are better off without him.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    It's not turnovers that are the problem, it's that he struggles getting us into offensive sets. That's the reason Vogel had Lance handling the ball against Miami in the conference finals, most likely.
    His usage was 16.4 and Lance was at 18.2. There wasnt as big of a difference as you'd think.

    I think the biggest difference is that Hill tries to wait for the post player (Roy) get position, or waits for the West to set the screen. Our off the ball decisiveness is just as much to blame for our struggles against defensive pressure.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdash
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    Yeah, that's the problem. I don't think anyone on this board is as big of a jerk in person as they come across on here. Except maybe Nuntius. Dude is impossibly nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    He is a saint, cdash. If a mosquito landed on his arm trying to bite him he would tell it " Go on son, do your thing".

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    He could improve, but my focus is on this team and how WE AS A TEAM can improve, not if Lance can. Lance can improve in Charlotte all he wants, we lost him here in Indy, so i'm focusing on how we can improve from this past season, and Lance improving individually has nothing to do with that.
    Yeah, goodluck with setting up our offense next season with this TEAM.
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    I think that lance
    1.) To some degree wasn't a great fit here. His style doesn't fit well within our system.
    2.) Is too much of a me first player to do what the Pacers did best, beat people down in an entire team effort
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Well Hill is going to be near all-star level next season and all our ball-handlers will suddenly be much better moving the ball, our TO's will go significantly down as Lance, obviously only was a detriment. Thats basically what I am reading here. We'll see.
    Last edited by Mourning; 07-17-2014 at 07:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    And how much did he create in those series? Im not simply talking about assists, but how active he was or better the lack there off? How often did he actually touch the ball and how often did he actually not just pass the ball from where it came? How quick was he setting up our, gulp, offense? I don't know the answers, but I have serious reservations about all those parameters with Hill. Simply put: I want Hill to be our starting SG where he belongs or as a 6th man. I like him a lot, but not as our starting PG. Never have and probably never will.
    I agree Hill is best as a 2 within a traditional offense. I also agree that he was likely better looking for his own than he was trying to set up offense for others. The point of my post was the fact that I don't think the blame is squarley on Hill for our struggles against defensive pressure.

    We really need to get back to our triangle offensive principles we had two years ago. It lessened the burden and usage of PG and allowed Hill West and Roy to be a bit more effective as well.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Well Hill is going to be near all-star level next season and all our ball-handlers will suddenly be much better moving the ball, our TO's will go significantly down as Lance, obviously only was a detriment. Thats basically what I am reading here. We'll see.
    He wasn't a detriment until he forgot what his role was. When we were at our best he was our 4th or 5th best player, and was okay with it. It was when he started playing like it was him v the other team that he became a detriment at times.
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by khaos01207 View Post
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    I think that lance
    1.) To some degree wasn't a great fit here. His style doesn't fit well within our system.
    2.) Is too much of a me first player to do what the Pacers did best, beat people down in an entire team effort
    I would agree with #2. At this point he remains a me-first type of player which is why he has detractors...and deservedly so. He's also not a good team mate notwithstanding all the PR work going on around him. What a shame. What a shame!

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I would agree with #2. At this point he remains a me-first type of player which is why he has detractors...and deservedly so. He's also not a good team mate notwithstanding all the PR work going on around him. What a shame. What a shame!
    I didn't necessarily say he wasn't q good teammate, just his basketball style is not a fit here. He has been the man since he was in high school, and he couldn't be here.
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  20. #38

    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Yeah, goodluck with setting up our offense next season with this TEAM.
    We were fine in 12-13 doing it, about the same as in 13-14.... So whats the big deal now?

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach_Lowe View Post
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    the team’s most dynamic player.
    I guess Zach disagrees with a lot of people around here.
    .

    .

    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I agree Hill is best as a 2 within a traditional offense. I also agree that he was likely better looking for his own than he was trying to set up offense for others. The point of my post was the fact that I don't think the blame is squarley on Hill for our struggles against defensive pressure.
    I agree that Hill is not the only one to blame, but he was one of our players who IMHO did have a lot of problems with it and he is our starting PG. To me that points to a problem. A Problem that IMHO will be a bigger problem next season when one of our players who was better against facing that sort of intense and physical pressure will not be here anymore. I'm not saying like Lance was a GOD like some around here like characterize people who don't immediately put Lance down would like to make you think.

    I am saying he had some issues in his playing style, ball hogging, etc, but I think he could have solved quite some of those problems AND he didnt only had negatives (to which a lot of people are only pointing now), but also a lof of positives and one of those was beying able to keep the ball and not losing it easily under pressure. How our TEAM handles that pressure next season with our offense remains to be seen, but I consider it a major point of concern and one it seems keeps getting avoided.
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  25. #41
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    I agree that Hill is not the only one to blame, but he was one of our players who IMHO did have a lot of problems with it and he is our starting PG. To me that points to a problem. A Problem that IMHO will be a bigger problem next season when one of our players who was better against facing that sort of intense and physical pressure will not be here anymore. I'm not saying like Lance was a GOD like some around here like characterize people who don't immediately put Lance down would like to make you think.

    I am saying he had some issues in his playing style, ball hogging, etc, but I think he could have solved quite some of those problems AND he didnt only had negatives (to which a lot of people are only pointing now), but also a lof of positives and one of those was beying able to keep the ball and not losing it easily under pressure. How our TEAM handles that pressure next season with our offense remains to be seen, but I consider it a major point of concern and one it seems keeps getting avoided.
    I would agree that Lance could have grown Into a more mature team player, but he's not on the team anymore. No point in discussing what he brought to the team because he decided to play elsewhere.

    It'll be interesting what we do from here. That's at least what I'm mostly interested in moving forward
    Quote Originally Posted by cdash
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    Yeah, that's the problem. I don't think anyone on this board is as big of a jerk in person as they come across on here. Except maybe Nuntius. Dude is impossibly nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    He is a saint, cdash. If a mosquito landed on his arm trying to bite him he would tell it " Go on son, do your thing".

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  27. #42

    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    pg at top of the key with miles and hill running off screens would be better than vogel having them trying to create off pick and rolls.


    we don't have one guy who is great at creating off the dribble, so i think vogel is going to have use more screens and players moving off the ball

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I would agree that Lance could have grown Into a more mature team player, but he's not on the team anymore. No point in discussing what he brought to the team because he decided to play elsewhere.

    It'll be interesting what we do from here. That's at least what I'm mostly interested in moving forward
    Yes, it will be interesting to see how things go. But Pritchard's daughter is right. We have taken a step back on talent needed to achieve a title...and arguably we are in rebuild mode. Probably the better word is retool because we have several players who are worthy of being part of a team winning a ring. But as presently constructed we do not have the offensive system or offensive talent to win it all. The more interesting thing will be the moves made over the next couple years. The question is if Larry can recreate the Spurs in Indy...and that means he needs to drop his "we don't need all milk-drinkers" mindset. That's why Lance Stephenson was drafted and unfortunately you are just wasting your time on those guys most of the time...even if the talent was all-star caliber.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by mrknowname View Post
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    pg at top of the key with miles and hill running off screens would be better than vogel having them trying to create off pick and rolls.


    we don't have one guy who is great at creating off the dribble, so i think vogel is going to have use more screens and players moving off the ball
    Please and thank you. I hope one thing that get banished from this team's offensive sets is the fake screen and rolls that both Roy and DWest run every time up the floor. This team never set any sort of real screens or picks for each other the entire year. I never got it. You have to big guys who aren't very mobile. Go have them plant their asses into a defender and get some separation for the wings. Instead all we see is slipping the screen or pick and basically never requiring the defense to react.

    damn you Vogel, the fricking Spurs and Heat hold, clutch, and grab on every screen. The Warriors and Hawks come out and set Illegal Screens every possession up the floor. The Pacers set fake screens and had one of the worst offenses in the league. Something don't add up here.
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    Here is the thing, Lance is a ball stopper and there is no doubting that, what if we improve our offense by inserting a shooter and ball mover like Miles into the starting line-up? I wouldn't say Hill is a bad post entry passer either.
    Sometimes you're right, but I think that mostly happens because there isn't much movement off the ball in our offense. None of our other players can create off the dribble, so if Lance gets it and everyone is just looking at him, he's going to go to work.

    This is a great article, as are all of Zach Lowe's. The more I read it and thought about losing Lance, the more I wanted to stop and think about something else. I think losing Lance hurts a lot more than people here want to realize. He brought an element that was unique to our team and is essential to success in the NBA.

    This paragraph was spot on:

    "He stood as Indiana’s only game-to-game jolt of creativity. They ran more with Stephenson on the court. They generated more shots within the restricted area, and though the Pacers shot fewer 3s with Stephenson playing, they nailed those shots at a much higher rate — especially from the corners. Indy shot 45.5 percent on corner 3s with Stephenson on the floor, and just 33.6 percent when he sat, per NBA.com. Corner 3s work only when someone creates them by penetrating the defense and drawing help."

    If we look anything like the post ASG Pacers we were last year… and have replaced Lance Stephenson with CJ Miles and Rodney Stuckey- two terrible ball handlers- we will not make the playoffs. I tend to think we will be a better team than that Jekyll version of the Pacers we saw in 2014 and for most of the playoffs, but I'm not sure of that. I'm not sure where the "jolt of creativity" comes from in this group. It is hard to imagine this team, as currently constructed, being much fun to watch.

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  35. #46
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Yes, it will be interesting to see how things go. But Pritchard's daughter is right. We have taken a step back on talent needed to achieve a title...and arguably we are in rebuild mode. Probably the better word is retool because we have several players who are worthy of being part of a team winning a ring. But as presently constructed we do not have the offensive system or offensive talent to win it all. The more interesting thing will be the moves made over the next couple years. The question is if Larry can recreate the Spurs in Indy...and that means he needs to drop his "we don't need all milk-drinkers" mindset. That's why Lance Stephenson was drafted and unfortunately you are just wasting your time on those guys most of the time...even if the talent was all-star caliber.
    how can you say it is a rebuild or retool when we haven't even seen the team play yet? WE LOST ONE GUY. If the Pacers come out next season and continue to play .500 level ball and looking like the the Pacers that ended the season then, yes that should signal to Larry to blow it up.
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Also, the stat about having the 3rd lowest field goal attempts in the paint is absolutely pathetic for a power post team, and we just let our best player at attacking the paint walk lol.
    That's because this team abandoned its power post identity for the better part of last year. We became a jump shooting team and our bigs were not happy about that at all.

    Let's hope that this is going to change this season.
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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    how can you say it is a rebuild or retool when we haven't even seen the team play yet? WE LOST ONE GUY. If the Pacers come out next season and continue to play .500 level ball and looking like the the Pacers that ended the season then, yes that should signal to Larry to blow it up.
    Remember he's a future multi All Star though I look for the Pacers to be just as good because the team unity will be better. They probably won't start 33-7 because the East will be stronger, but I look at 50 wins minimum and that not too shabby.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    That's because this team abandoned its power post identity for the better part of last year. We became a jump shooting team and our bigs were not happy about that at all.

    Let's hope that this is going to change this season.
    I want it to change as well as you do, but we have three deadly 3 point shooters on the team now and I hope Frank isn't afraid to use them. Roy Hibbert really has to put on the big boy pants this season.

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    Default Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    That's because this team abandoned its power post identity for the better part of last year. We became a jump shooting team and our bigs were not happy about that at all.

    Let's hope that this is going to change this season.
    Quoted for the truth. I'm not sure why Frank allowed it to happen. It was Frank's biggest failure as a coach last year. I dunno if he felt the pressure to feature PG and Lance more, or just hard to argue against the early results the team was having. The team from 2 years ago was gritty, physical, and just plain executed from the post. Throw it down there and go to work. Crash the boards and get easy put backs. It was one ugly mo-fo of an offense, but our players were proud and wore it like a badge of honor! The power post should return in my opinion.
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