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Thread: Areas of Improvement from Within

  1. #1
    Member Eleazar's Avatar
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    Default Areas of Improvement from Within

    I was looking through some stats, and there were a few things that really stood at to me.


    1. Ian Mahinmi had a FG% of 55.6% with Dallas, and 48.8% from 10 to 16 ft. He did this while taking a greater percentage of shots from that range, and his FGA have not increased by a huge amount while with the Pacers (2.9 vs 3.3). Another thing stood out the percentage of shots he takes from 16 to 3Pt was 30% in 12-13, luckily though that dropped back down to a more normal average for him of only 11.6% of his shots. I think Vogel needs to take a good hard long look at what Dallas did to allow him to shoot 48.8% from 10 to 16ft compared to an abysmal 27.8% with the Pacers while taking roughly the same amount of shots. If we can find a way to make Ian efficient again, it will be a huge boost to the offense when the back-ups are on the court.


    2. In George Hill's last season with the Spurs for every 100 shots he took, he also had 42.7 FTA. This is kind of an absurd rate. For comparison, Wade's career rate is 46.9 and Lebron's is 43. Hill also had a rate of 39.2 his rookie season, so this doesn't appear to have been a fluke season. Meanwhile with the Pacers it has been 27.1, 10 points below Hill's rate for all three seasons with the Spurs. Last year, if you don't take into consideration hack-an-Ian, Roy led the Pacers at 35.7, which is lower than Hill's three seasons with the Spurs combined. At the same time Hill's 3PA has gone from 26.7% of his shots to 40.7% of his shots. Minus his rookie season, he has been doing all this while taking roughly the same amount of shots in SA as Indy. Like Ian, Vogel needs to take a long look at how SA used Hill, and try to incorporate some of that into our offense.

    By the way, you don't put up those kinds of free throw rates without being aggressive. Most of the evidence continues to point towards Hill's passiveness being an issue of what the coaches are asking of him, not of him choosing to be passive.



    P.S. Please no Lance talk. This isn't about Lance.
    Last edited by Eleazar; 07-22-2014 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    You are the anti-Grimp


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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    Don't be absurd. Everyone knows that now there is no one on the team that can create their own shot, or create space, or draw fouls that everyone on the team will be worse. Nevermind any of those silly stats like the pacers having a top 10 offense and then declining to a bottom 10 offense with Stephenson. That just doesn't pass the eye test.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    I have always liked both of these guys for what they are and think the Pacers can win with them in appropriate roles. Trouble is they both were playing with (and off of) better and more efficient offensive stars in Texas. They were also playing in better more sophisticated offensive systems.

    Hibbert is a huge wild card and West is battling time so any real sustained offensive upside is likely up to Paul George continuing to ascend & on Bird and the staff doing something to get more out of the system.

    Truthfully. As long as the Pacers stand pat at the 4 & 5 I think this team mostly is who it is. Short of George taking that one last huge step as a player the one internal indicator that will dictate the level of success in 2015 is if they get back to playing defense like they did during the 2nd half of 2013 & the first half of 2014.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    When I think of impvement I think of Paul George. I think he has just scratched the surface. And yes I know he'll have to do more without Lance, and that might hurt his game, he might get worn down, but also sometimes when more is expected, more is given.

    Without Lance PG might become a true NBA superstar sooner


    general comment: I would love to know what the players and coaches are really saying about losing Lance
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 07-22-2014 at 11:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    I'll add on to what UB is saying with an example of Dale Davis. I felt like his best season was the year after Antonio got traded. DD had to carry more of the load and did. I see the same idea with PG and Lance.

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  12. #7
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    PG - ball handling/passing/decision making/shot selection & overall FG% (wants to be considered a superstar, now he's really got to put his money where his mouth is by improving in these foundational areas)

    Roy - overcome mental midget syndrome, in other words increase mental toughness, improve rebounding #s, accept you are not an leading offensive cog and focus on your strength (defense)

    GH - consistently play with purpose and passion, also stop the whiny **** (boo-hoo the fans booed us type stuff)

    Frank Vogel - get an improved offensive system, use the bench effectively, use players' talents more effectively

    D West - better defense & rebounding more consistently (but hopefully minutes will be reduced during regular season)

    Bench will have to wait for a later post.
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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    I think a huge area of improvement will come from Vogel realizing just how versatile our roster is and actually utilizing it. I love Frank's confidence in his guys, but being able to plug in different guys in different situations is really important.

    Also Roy needs to work on his hand strength. No more getting blocked by Korver and Chalmers, man, come on. If he stays the same in all other areas but improves that, he'll be okay.

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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    We need to improve passing. I like George Hill, but he can really struggle with initiating an offense and making quality passes against tough defenses. PG can be downright putrid at passing and often makes dumb decisions with bad fundamentals.

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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    We need to improve passing. I like George Hill, but he can really struggle with initiating an offense and making quality passes against tough defenses. PG can be downright putrid at passing and often makes dumb decisions with bad fundamentals.
    I think if we could have players moving off the ball, this would help big time for both. Instead we have a guy standing in the corner, a guy on the wing, a guy in the post, and another guy coming to set a screen for the ball handler. If those other players would move with a purpose (coaches speak) we would be a lot better in this area.

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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I was looking through some stats, and there were a few things that really stood at to me.


    1. Ian Mahinmi had a FG% of 55.6% with Dallas, and 48.8% from 10 to 16 ft. He did this while taking a greater percentage of shots from that range, and his FGA have not increased by a huge amount while with the Pacers (2.9 vs 3.3). Another thing stood out the percentage of shots he takes from 16 to 3Pt was 30% in 12-13, luckily though that dropped back down to a more normal average for him of only 11.6% of his shots. I think Vogel needs to take a good hard long look at what Dallas did to allow him to shoot 48.8% from 10 to 16ft compared to an abysmal 27.8% with the Pacers while taking roughly the same amount of shots. If we can find a way to make Ian efficient again, it will be a huge boost to the offense when the back-ups are on the court.


    2. In George Hill's last season with the Spurs for every 100 shots he took, he also had 42.7 FTA. This is kind of an absurd rate. For comparison, Wade's career rate is 46.9 and Lebron's is 43. Hill also had a rate of 39.2 his rookie season, so this doesn't appear to have been a fluke season. Meanwhile with the Pacers it has been 27.1, 10 points below Hill's rate for all three seasons with the Spurs. Last year, if you don't take into consideration hack-an-Ian, Roy led the Pacers at 35.7, which is lower than Hill's three seasons with the Spurs combined. At the same time Hill's 3PA has gone from 26.7% of his shots to 40.7% of his shots. Minus his rookie season, he has been doing all this while taking roughly the same amount of shots in SA as Indy. Like Ian, Vogel needs to take a long look at how SA used Hill, and try to incorporate some of that into our offense.

    By the way, you don't put up those kinds of free throw rates without being aggressive. Most of the evidence continues to point towards Hill's passiveness being an issue of what the coaches are asking of him, not of him choosing to be passive.



    P.S. Please no Lance talk. This isn't about Lance.

    Great stuff. I get we are not talking about Lance, but if I may reference I do need to reference him. Without him on the team I do suspect the ball will move more like others have speculated. When this occurs players move, driving lanes are created and we can attack the basket.

    With less 1 on 1 ball I believe a lot of those red flags you posted on will be in better shape.

  19. #12
    Obviously ur not a golfer 5_7_Clash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    When I think of impvement I think of Paul George. I think he has just scratched the surface. And yes I know he'll have to do more without Lance, and that might hurt his game, he might get worn down, but also sometimes when more is expected, more is given.

    Without Lance PG might become a true NBA superstar sooner


    general comment: I would love to know what the players and coaches are really saying about losing Lance
    I think this is true not just for PG but Roy, Hill, CJ (Watson and Miles), Stuckey, Luis (if he's still here), Cope, maybe even Solo. We've got lots of guys who have the opportunity to basically do what Lance did: step into a void and become an integral part.

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  21. #13
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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    Quote Originally Posted by 5_7_Clash View Post
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    I think this is true not just for PG but Roy, Hill, CJ (Watson and Miles), Stuckey, Luis (if he's still here), Cope, maybe even Solo. We've got lots of guys who have the opportunity to basically do what Lance did: step into a void and become an integral part.
    I agree with this for the lesser players, but I think Roy is what he is, and I think PG just isn't a superstar. He's a very good two way player and a definite star in the league. I know a lot of people on here believe his offense will go to the next level, but I don't think he'll ever be elite (to be fair, how many elite players are there right now, maybe 3 or 4?).

    I do think the change in roles could provide a big opportunity for Hill (I don't think he'll take. Not because I don't think he's good enough, but because I don't think he's good enough at the role the team is asking him to play). I think Scope, CJ, and even Ian could get a real chance to step up this year, and I would like to see Solo get some real burn too.
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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    I want to see what we have in Rudez and Copeland and Solomon Hill. Ian can be traded and the team would be better instantly. Allen gets to play then.
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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    I want to see what we have in Rudez and Copeland and Solomon Hill. Ian can be traded and the team would be better instantly. Allen gets to play then.
    No way do we get better instantly if we move Ian. He was our best center for 30% off the season and was only making 4 million bucks.

  24. #16

    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    How come there is no mention of Vogel improving? This guy is one of the youngest head coaches in the league. He should certainly improve as well.
    Last edited by BlueCollarColts; 07-22-2014 at 08:18 PM.

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    Member Eleazar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    How come no one acts like Vogel can't improve? This guy is one of the youngest head coaches in the league. He should certainly improve as well.
    Maybe it didn't come off that way, but that was what both of my points were about. Improvement by Vogel to get these guys in better positions to do what they have shown to be capable of on previous teams.

  26. #18
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    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    How come there is no mention of Vogel improving? This guy is one of the youngest head coaches in the league. He should certainly improve as well.
    Did you read the thread? There are some.
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  27. #19

    Default Re: Areas of Improvement from Within

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Did you read the thread? There are some.
    I read the op, does that count?

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