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Thread: Fire Larry Bird

  1. #51

    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    A starting talent.

    There actually isn't a whole lot there that you said that makes him special. Being able to get 10-10-10 a few times does not make you special. He wasn't averaging a triple-double. He has a low BBIQ, isn't a great shooter, isn't that great of a dribbler, for someone who is supposed to be a great passer has a lot of turnovers and a relatively low amount of assists, isn't a great defender, really not all that great at anything, but boy does he get a lot of uncontested rebounds and looks scary when running down the court for a fast break. You need more than being a fast break monster to be a special talent. Lance can do a lot of things well, this is why he lead the league in triple-doubles, but outside of the fast break he isn't great at anything. That isn't a special talent, that is a talent who was in a the right situation to get a few triple-doubles.

    Lance's impact on the win-loss column for this team was small, probably about the same as George Hill. When it comes to winning and losing, this team is all about Roy and Paul, mostly Roy, with a little West mixed in. After that, you just have filler. That filler is the difference between a championship contender and just a playoff team, but the filler players are not special. They can be good, they can even be very good, but they are in no way special.

    "boy does he get a lot of uncontested rebounds" Many experts believe Lance grab rebounds (using his strength) from his own teammates to pad his stats.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    I am probably getting pretty annoying by repeating this in every thread, but everybody else is repeating themselves over and over, so here goes:

    Lance is a role player. We did not win or lose games based on Lance. Paul, Roy, and David are the reason we win or lose. Lane is a solid starter, the same as Hill. With Lance gone, Hill will elevate his game to the level that he was two years ago. The fifth starter, be it either CJ, or whoever else will cover the rest. We will win 50-55 games and be in the 2nd round of the playoffs. From there we will take our chances just like we have the past 3 years. If Lance was in fact able to swing our team wins by 10 or 15, he would have gotten a 15 million dollar contract. Period. I know emotions are high because you all liked his fancy Sportscenter plays, but seriously, Fire Bird?!?!?!?
    It's amusing isn't it. Lance is a role player who is already an All Star in his own mind and the minds of the PD fanboys. Lance will never even be close to being a top 10 or 20/per NBA player. I would bet the bank on it. We might have a few less wins next season with the transition, but I bet we're a far more unified team come playoff time. I've already moved on from Lance and am at peace with it. In fact I'm happy about it.

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  4. #53
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    When I talk shooter I do not mean FG%. I mean shooting from range. If you want something somewhat exact, I mean 10+ feet. I'm going to post Lance's shooting statistics, and then some players who ranked below Lance in FG%.

    Lance Stephenson


    Klay Thompson


    Aaron Afflalo


    Marco Bellenili


    We are looking at the last full season for each of these players. The key here is the ranges of 10+ feet. Yeah Lance has a better FG%, but that is because over one third of his shots is from the 0 to 3 foot range, and 50% of his shots is from less than 10 feet. This skews his FG% up because he is taking higher percentage shots. The other 3 players though have almost the exact opposite skew. All of them shoot much much better from the 10+ foot ranges. So much better they make Lance's percentages look downright awful. (which 30% from 10 to 16 feet is awful) Since they are lower percentage shots they aren't going to have as high of a FG%, but it isn't hard to tell who the better shooters are.

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  6. #54
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by wtelfair View Post
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    "boy does he get a lot of uncontested rebounds" Many experts believe Lance grab rebounds (using his strength) from his own teammates to pad his stats.
    I think that gets overblown. Yeah he steals rebounds, but I don't think it was as often as some people like to think. His replacements should be able to get 50% or so of the rebounds he got, 3.5 to 4.5 rebounds, then once you take into consideration the rebounds he got that usually go to a C or PF that only really leaves about 1 rebound left that we have to make up for. Defensive rebounding, which accounts for 5.9 of his 7.2 rebounds is extremely easy to replace. It is that 1.3 ORB that is difficult to replace.

  7. #55
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    There just wasn't the interest out there for him that he thought there would be.
    I think this is what happened. Does anyone think Lance would have signed this contract with CHARLOTTE had there been an offer by another team that was anywhere close? I think Lance burned his bridge with the Pacers by scoffing at their offer, didn't find any love out there, then was forced to go to Charlotte.

    Smooth move, Lance. Enjoy NC.

  8. #56
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    When I talk shooter I do not mean FG%. I mean shooting from range. If you want something somewhat exact, I mean 10+ feet. I'm going to post Lance's shooting statistics, and then some players who ranked below Lance in FG%.

    We are looking at the last full season for each of these players. The key here is the ranges of 10+ feet. Yeah Lance has a better FG%, but that is because over one third of his shots is from the 0 to 3 foot range, and 50% of his shots is from less than 10 feet. This skews his FG% up because he is taking higher percentage shots. The other 3 players though have almost the exact opposite skew. All of them shoot much much better from the 10+ foot ranges. So much better they make Lance's percentages look downright awful. (which 30% from 10 to 16 feet is awful) Since they are lower percentage shots they aren't going to have as high of a FG%, but it isn't hard to tell who the better shooters are.
    how many points do you get for shots beyond 10 feet? It's 2.5, right?

  9. #57

    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train View Post
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    I think this is what happened. Does anyone think Lance would have signed this contract with CHARLOTTE had there been an offer by another team that was anywhere close? I think Lance burned his bridge with the Pacers by scoffing at their offer, didn't find any love out there, then was forced to go to Charlotte.

    Smooth move, Lance. Enjoy NC.

    I don't understand why a person leaves $$$ on the table and goes to NC. Just because the contract was front loaded (not by much). So bizarre.

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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    how many points do you get for shots beyond 10 feet? It's 2.5, right?
    No, but I am not sure what that has to do with how good of a shooter someone is?

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  12. #59
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    I forgot about the Kawhi Leonard trade. Larry traded away the best player of the 2011 draft.
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    signing Rodney Stuckey signifies the worst off-season in franchise history.
    David "And One" West

  14. #61
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    signing Rodney Stuckey signifies the worst off-season in franchise history.
    I disagreed with your fire Bird post, but I'll agree this hasn't been the best offseason so far.

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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    signing Rodney Stuckey signifies the worst off-season in franchise history.
    There have been worse. In my lifetime, there have been worse.

  17. #63
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    signing Rodney Stuckey signifies the worst off-season in franchise history.
    Actually, that would be the offseason where our main pickups were: Kareem Rush, Maceo Baston, and Travis Deiner. I think we may have not even had a first round pick that year. However, we did get Stanko that year so there's that.

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  19. #64
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by idioteque View Post
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    Actually, that would be the offseason where our main pickups were: Kareem Rush, Maceo Baston, and Travis Deiner. I think we may have not even had a first round pick that year.
    I have blocked out that year from my memory lol
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by idioteque View Post
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    Actually, that would be the offseason where our main pickups were: Kareem Rush, Maceo Baston, and Travis Deiner. I think we may have not even had a first round pick that year. However, we did get Stanko that year so there's that.
    You're right, we didn't have a first rounder that year. We traded it to get Harrington back here, but of course then sent Harrington out in that package for Murph and Dun.

    2007 was just a hideous year for the Pacers.

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  23. #66
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    You're right, we didn't have a first rounder that year. We traded it to get Harrington back here, but of course then sent Harrington out in that package for Murph and Dun.

    2007 was just a hideous year for the Pacers.
    I hated everything about that year. I think it was Chris Denari's first year too? I remember even hating him at first! I really missed Al Albert.

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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Larry should get a raise for the way he handled Lance in the offseason.
    If there was anything that I wish Larry would have done differently with Lance it would be in trying to move Lance at the trade deadline instead of Danny. Orlando was willing to move Afflalo, I'll always wonder if we could have enticed them with Lance and a pick before the deadline.

  26. #68

    Default Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    When I talk shooter I do not mean FG%. I mean shooting from range. If you want something somewhat exact, I mean 10+ feet. I'm going to post Lance's shooting statistics, and then some players who ranked below Lance in FG%.

    Lance Stephenson


    Klay Thompson


    Aaron Afflalo


    Marco Bellenili


    We are looking at the last full season for each of these players. The key here is the ranges of 10+ feet. Yeah Lance has a better FG%, but that is because over one third of his shots is from the 0 to 3 foot range, and 50% of his shots is from less than 10 feet. This skews his FG% up because he is taking higher percentage shots. The other 3 players though have almost the exact opposite skew. All of them shoot much much better from the 10+ foot ranges. So much better they make Lance's percentages look downright awful. (which 30% from 10 to 16 feet is awful) Since they are lower percentage shots they aren't going to have as high of a FG%, but it isn't hard to tell who the better shooters are.
    Adjusted FG % takes this into account. Lance is 35% from 3, and thus the totality of his shooting ability from the paint to midrange to behind the arc across ALL players in the league is 29th, and across SGs he's 8th. No one on the Pacers has a higher adjusted FG %.

    He's a top shooter, the top rebounding SG in the league, led the league in triple doubles and is a beast on the break. He's anything but an "average" starter, and he's just 24.

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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by indyaway View Post
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    Adjusted FG % takes this into account. Lance is 35% from 3, and thus the totality of his shooting ability from the paint to midrange to behind the arc across ALL players in the league is 29th, and across SGs he's 8th. No one on the Pacers has a higher adjusted FG %.

    He's a top shooter, the top rebounding SG in the league, led the league in triple doubles and is a beast on the break. He's anything but an "average" starter, and he's just 24.
    AFG%/eFG% does not take anything I said into account. It only takes into account the value of the shot. Again we are talking about shooting, and how good of a shooter Lance is. Not how efficiently Lance scores the ball. Those are two different categories measuring two different things. Dunks and layups are not shooting. When people talk about how good of a shooter someone is they are talking about how well they shoot from range, not how efficiently they score the ball.

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  29. #70

    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    A lot of people are pointing to different moves, but the one that did us in was Copeland. I've said since that signing that both Danny and Lance would be gone, and now they are.

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  31. #71
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by indyaway View Post
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    LMAO....dude, you're parroting off the biggest misconception of Lance out there. He was 3rd in the league in FG % for SGs...only Wade and Dragic put it in the hole at a better %.

    Across all positions, his adjusted FG% is 29th in the league.

    Let me list out all the Pacers that shoot better than Lance :
    Posted this in the Stuckey thread, but I guess it is worth discussing here too. What will Lance look like/shoot when he is being defended by the opposing team's best wing defender for 82 straight games? Playing next to Paul George is a great luxury for a guy like Lance. Now Lance will be the one getting Lebron, PG, Luol Deng, etc. matched up against him. It is a legit thing to wonder IMO, will his shooting % stay at nearly 50% or will it suffer?

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  32. #72
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    I believe we have acquired two serviceable backup wings in Miles and Stuckey. I would not be shocked to see Solo start and Paul start at the 2. That would be a great defensive team but our offense would need a complete overhaul.

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  34. #73
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    signing Rodney Stuckey signifies the worst off-season in franchise history.
    We once traded the pick that became Michael Jordan

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  36. #74
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I believe we have acquired two serviceable backup wings in Miles and Stuckey. I would not be shocked to see Solo start and Paul start at the 2. That would be a great defensive team but our offense would need a complete overhaul.
    Our offense needed an overhaul no matter what happened in the offseason.

  37. #75
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    Default Re: Fire Larry Bird

    I think Bird has done more good than bad, but I do have a criticism. He never learned his lesson from the brawl. If he had learned it, he would never have picked Lance Stephenson in the first place.

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