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Thread: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

  1. #1151

    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    I think Roy's struggles, 2nd half of this year, and his wrist injury which de-railed his first half of last season really bring down his TS%, when he is good Hibbert he is a very competent offensive center.

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacers24Colts12 View Post
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    Lance seems to be enjoying his new money:

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    No it's not, It's decent, but not nearly great. Not sure who you want to compare Roy too, but here are some other centers in the league's season shooting percentage:
    Deandre Jordan .676
    andre drummond .623
    Tyson Chandler .593
    Dwight Howard .591
    Robin Lopez .551
    Jonas Valanciunas .531
    Timofey Mozgov .523

    etc... Essentially Hibbert's best month is worse than the yearly average of even the most average of centers in the league.
    I think that you missed a very important part of my post so I will quote myself and highlight the important part. Here is what I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Not true. 51.7% is a great percentage for a back to the basket big. If Roy was able to shoot like that consistently then no one would have any right to complain about his offense. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
    I was talking specifically about back to the basket bigs. All of the bigs that you mentioned are either entirely PnR bigs (in the case of DeAndre Jordan, Andre Drummond an Tyson Chandler) or primarily PnR bigs (in the case of the others). They are players that excel at finishing a shot that one of their teammates created. On the other hand, back to the basket bigs are usually tasked with their own shots which explains why they shoot a lower percentage than their PnR counterparts.

    Do you want an example of some back to the basket bigs? I'll gladly give you 3 examples.

    Example #1:

    Marc Gasol:

    13-14 shooting percentage: 47.3%

    Career average shooting percentage: 51.2%

    Example #2:

    Al Jefferson:

    13-14 shooting percentage: 50.9%

    Career average shooting percentage: 50.1%

    Example #3:

    DeMarcus Cousins:

    13-14 shooting percentage: 49.6%

    Career average shooting percentage: 46.2%

    Each one of those bigs is tasked with creating his own shots and each one of them relies on their post game to create those shots (although DeMarcus also uses his face-up game quite often).

    As you can see for yourself both their career average shooting percentages and their 13-14 shooting percentages were all lower than 51.7%. Therefore, my previous point stands. 51.7% is a great percentage for a back to the basket big. I'm not trying to say that 51.7% is the absolute best that a back to the basket big can shoot obviously but the fact remains that the percentage is very good.
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Anybody got the low down on Kravitz article today?? Titled something like Bird doesn't understand why lance left.

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I think that you missed a very important part of my post so I will quote myself and highlight the important part. Here is what I wrote:



    I was talking specifically about back to the basket bigs. All of the bigs that you mentioned are either entirely PnR bigs (in the case of DeAndre Jordan, Andre Drummond an Tyson Chandler) or primarily PnR bigs (in the case of the others). They are players that excel at finishing a shot that one of their teammates created. On the other hand, back to the basket bigs are usually tasked with their own shots which explains why they shoot a lower percentage than their PnR counterparts.

    Do you want an example of some back to the basket bigs? I'll gladly give you 3 examples.

    Example #1:

    Marc Gasol:

    13-14 shooting percentage: 47.3%

    Career average shooting percentage: 51.2%

    Example #2:

    Al Jefferson:

    13-14 shooting percentage: 50.9%

    Career average shooting percentage: 50.1%

    Example #3:

    DeMarcus Cousins:

    13-14 shooting percentage: 49.6%

    Career average shooting percentage: 46.2%

    Each one of those bigs is tasked with creating his own shots and each one of them relies on their post game to create those shots (although DeMarcus also uses his face-up game quite often).

    As you can see for yourself both their career average shooting percentages and their 13-14 shooting percentages were all lower than 51.7%. Therefore, my previous point stands. 51.7% is a great percentage for a back to the basket big. I'm not trying to say that 51.7% is the absolute best that a back to the basket big can shoot obviously but the fact remains that the percentage is very good.
    Wow, I am surprised you are even having to explain this to someone. 50% is normal for a C in the NBA. Just because there are a few that have better averages does not mean 50% isn't good.

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Wow, I am surprised you are even having to explain this to someone. 50% is normal for a C in the NBA. Just because there are a few that have better averages does not mean 50% isn't good.
    Well, I like to make myself clear. A player's shooting percentage is always going to depend on whether he creates his shots himself or someone else creates it for him. Players that create their own shots will always shoot a lower percentage than those who have their shots created by others unless they are absolute freaks (like LeBron).
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Wow, I am surprised you are even having to explain this to someone. 50% is normal for a C in the NBA. Just because there are a few that have better averages does not mean 50% isn't good.
    if 50% is normal, it is not good, it is, by very definition, average. And once again, we are comparing the best month by Hibbert to the entire season of other C.
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    if 50% is normal, it is not good, it is, by very definition, average. And once again, we are comparing the best month by Hibbert to the entire season of other C.
    That's not the definition of average.
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    If 50% is average I guess the following players who had a career average 51% or below were just average: Patrick Ewing, Moses Malone, David Robinson, and Hakeem Olajuwon.

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Roy has a lower fg% because he doesn't dunk the ball. Also, Roy kinda sucks because he doesn't dunk the ball.

    (Granted, I'm not all that familiar with advanced stats on suckage.)
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Roy has a lower fg% because he doesn't dunk the ball. Also, Roy kinda sucks because he doesn't dunk the ball.

    (Granted, I'm not all that familiar with advanced stats on suckage.)
    If Roy would stop bringing the ball down to his waist, and dunk it his averages would skyrocket. Even so he is still capable of averaging 50% for the season, he has done it twice already.

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Roy has a lower fg% because he doesn't dunk the ball. Also, Roy kinda sucks because he doesn't dunk the ball.

    (Granted, I'm not all that familiar with advanced stats on suckage.)
    Roy doesn't dunk the ball much because he has no lift and his balance isn't good enough to take contact. Long and quick centers easily stuff him...which is why he uses a jump hook a lot. Physically strong centers push him off balance way too easily.

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Roy doesn't dunk the ball much because he has no lift and his balance isn't good enough to take contact. Long and quick centers easily stuff him...which is why he uses a jump hook a lot. Physically strong centers push him off balance way too easily.
    And he can't get his own rebound because most of the time he does leave his feet he ends up on his a$$.... Green?
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    if 50% is normal, it is not good, it is, by very definition, average.
    That's not true. It always depends on the distance and type of the shot.

    Shooting 50% in Dunks is considered awful.

    Shooting 50% in Hook shots is considered very good.

    Shooting 50% from within 8 ft is considered average.

    Shooting 50% from 10-15 ft is considered above average.

    Shooting 50% from 16-23 ft is considered great.

    Shooting 50% from 3 point range is considered amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    And once again, we are comparing the best month by Hibbert to the entire season of other C.
    The only reason we're doing this is because you said that Roy hasn't had great months. That's simply untrue and that was what started this whole discussion.
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    LOL solid. Best avatar on this site.

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    If 50% is average I guess the following players who had a career average 51% or below were just average: Patrick Ewing, Moses Malone, David Robinson, and Hakeem Olajuwon.
    First off, Hakeem and Robinson both shot over 51% for their career. Second, all players mentioned above had true shooting percentages miles above Hibbert, and third, and probably most importantly, they could rebound. Hibbert - 6.7 rpg, Malone - 13, Ewing - 14.5, Hakeem - 15.5, Robinson - 15.8.

    I'm not sure what you're arguing. Hibbert is not a good shooter by any definition. He had one month where he shot well, which doesn't mean anything.
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  27. #1167

    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    According to Charlotte fans, Lance is a guy that "Can't be left open from deep", now I know Lance/Kemba/MKG are all young, but that team's spacing will be awful, and Lance playing with non-shooters will make it a lot tougher for him there than here in Indy.

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Yeah, a lot of people are underestimating how much playing next to someone like Paul George helps a player like Lance.

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Yeah, a lot of people are underestimating how much playing next to someone like Paul George helps a player like Lance.
    Both sides of the ball too. Never had to guard the opposing teams best player, be a spot up shooter with the first unit most of the time helps conserve energy. This will be a different situation for Lance. I bet he still plays well, but I think he makes a ton of mistakes getting there, if he does.

    I haven't chimed in on Lance in Charlotte, but who's the veteran leadership voice there? Jefferson? I like Jefferson, but is that a guy Lance respects and listens to? There's a chance Lance thinks he's the veteran voice now, that he's the superstar with playoff experience now. That's fine from a young CP3 or the like, but I'm guessing if Lance is turning the ball over and breaking plays and taking plays off defensively that it'll be really difficult to be that voice.

    My favorite thing about Lance was his edge and grit, but it's a huge leap from wildcard to the man, enourmous.

    I have no idea what Lance will do or how it will work out, but I think there will have to be some changes in his approach for it to work out. Maybe a new situation allows him to grow out of that little brother role he was in here. We'll see.

    I can't wait to watch some Hornets games next year to see if he falls into having to be managed. I want to watch teammates interact with him and see their body language. See how he acts in timeouts, see how the coaches talk to him.
    Last edited by Speed; 07-21-2014 at 01:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    First off, Hakeem and Robinson both shot over 51% for their career.
    True but barely. Hakeem's career average was 51.2% and Robinson's career average was 51.8%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Second, all players mentioned above had true shooting percentages miles above Hibbert
    True but that's why each one of them is a Hall of Famer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    and third, and probably most importantly, they could rebound. Hibbert - 6.7 rpg, Malone - 13, Ewing - 14.5, Hakeem - 15.5, Robinson - 15.8.
    All of these numbers are wrong except Hibbert's.

    Here are their real rebounding numbers:

    Patrick Ewing: 9.8 RPG

    David Robinson: 10.6 RPG

    Hakeem Olajuwon: 11.1 RPG

    Moses Malone: 12.3 RPG

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    I'm not sure what you're arguing. Hibbert is not a good shooter by any definition. He had one month where he shot well, which doesn't mean anything.
    He's trying to argue that 51.7% is good shooting for a back to the basket big which is absolutely true.

    No one is claiming that Hibbert is a good shooter. He is very inconsistent and his percentages fluctuate a lot throughout a full season. What we're trying to say is that you're initial assertion that "Hibbert never had a good shooting month" is false.
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    According to Charlotte fans, Lance is a guy that "Can't be left open from deep", now I know Lance/Kemba/MKG are all young, but that team's spacing will be awful, and Lance playing with non-shooters will make it a lot tougher for him there than here in Indy.
    LOL at clueless Hornets fans that are giddy about their new shiny toy. Lance was a 35% from the 3pt line on 3.1 3ptA per game. I am fairly certain that if he took more 3pt shots....that his 3pt FG% will drop even further. What's worse is that the Hornets were 23rd in 3pt FG% at 35% and 27th in FGA......they just aren't good at 3pt shooting.

    I think that Players like Lance need space to operate......the Hornets just aren't that good at that....add in their below average 3pt shooting....and I don't think that the Hornets as good fit for Lance than a Team that is really good at spacing and ball movement. I wonder.....would Lance have done better on a Team like the Hawks whose good at 3pt shooting and spacing?
    Last edited by CableKC; 07-21-2014 at 07:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    I don't see this article posted; interesting counter-argument. Note how Dan Devine gives a shout-out to Count55 (nicely done, Tim Donahue!).


    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ba...174942087.html


    Larry Bird calls Lance Stephenson's exit 'disappointing,' but it's a disappointment of the Pacers' making

    by Dan Devine

    Lance Stephenson's decision to turn down a five-year, $44 million contract offer from the Indiana Pacers to accept a three-year, $27.4 million deal with the Charlotte Hornets left plenty of people scratching their heads ... including, it seems, Larry Bird.

    The Pacers' team president, a longtime Stephenson booster, picked the Brooklyn-born guard in the second round of the 2010 NBA draft. He took a very hands-on role in helping Stephenson evolve from lightly regarded end-of-the-bench player into linchpin starter on a team that made consecutive Eastern Conference finals appearances, and Stephenson's vocal about his appreciation. He led off his farewell-to-Indy tweet by thanking Bird, said after signing in Charlotte that he's "definitely going to miss Larry Bird," and issued a statement through his agent, Alberto Ebanks, that said he was "especially grateful to his teammates, Frank Vogel, Herb Simon, the Pacers management and, most of all, Larry Bird" for all they'd done to help him.

    "Lance will miss the city, the team and the mentor who helped transform him into the dynamic player he has become," the statement read.

    Stephenson's "undying love for Larry Bird and for his [Pacers] teammates" made it "a tough decision," but in the end, he chose to leave Indianapolis for Charlotte. For fewer years. And for less guaranteed money. As Bird told Bob Kravitz of the Indianapolis Star in a let's-get-the-team's-side-of-the-story-out-there bit of home cooking, he doesn't get it:

    "I really feel bad about losing him," Bird said. "I hope it doesn't interfere with our relationship. But I did what I could possibly do to keep him here. Even if he didn't have any other offers, I was committed to giving him that $44 million because I believe in the kid. If you look at our roster, we have five or six guys in the last year of their deals, plus David (West) and Roy (Hibbert) can opt out, so don't you think I wanted to keep Lance and Paul (George) locked into long-term deals?" [...]

    Bird could stomach this if Stephenson had left for much greener pastures, a lot more cash. But the argument can be made that he left for a worse deal.

    "It's just disappointing," Bird said. "When I'd go to practices, when he was on, he was by far our best player. And he worked. If you work as hard as he does, you're going to get better. I'm going to miss the kid, no question. And he's growing up. That stuff he pulled in the playoffs, that was out of the blue. But I knew how good Lance was and the value he brought to our team."

    I have no doubt that Bird knew how good and how valuable Stephenson was, and that he probably knew it earlier and understood it more completely than just about anyone else. The problem, though, is that it seems the Pacers' other front-office decision-makers — namely Donnie Walsh and Kevin Pritchard — didn't grasp it early enough to set hard lines in previous negotiations that would leave enough financial wiggle room on the books to pay Stephenson what he'd be worth in the early stages of a new contract. (The "$7 million trap" concept floated a couple of summers ago by Tim Donahue of Pacers blog 8 Points, 9 Seconds looks awful prescient right about now.)

    Kravitz compares the average annual values of the deals offered by the Pacers (five years, $44 million, about $8.8 million per season) and the Hornets (three years, $27.4 million, just over $9 million per season) and upbraids Stephenson for leaving Indiana "for a couple hundred thousand dollars, a pittance by basketball standards." In telling the Pacers' side of the story, though, he doesn't tell the whole story; the details matter.

    Per Donahue, Indiana's five-year, $44 million offer would have started Stephenson off at "roughly $7.7 million next season, and [paid] a combined $15.9 million in the first two." Charlotte's deal, on the other hand, pays a flat $9 million per year and $18 million total for the first two seasons, meaning it guarantees about $2.1 million more up front ... which is a pretty significant chunk of change when you've made $3,435,000 in salary through your first four pro seasons.

    The Hornets' offer covering two fewer years matters, too. I'm with Kravitz (and, I'd suspect, most other folks) in thinking that it's a pretty sizable win for the Hornets that they hold a team option for the final season of Stephenson's deal, and that it's something of a head-scratcher that Lance's reps didn't get that flipped the other way to afford him the option of hitting the market unfettered after two years. Still, though, the Charlotte contract ensures that Stephenson will return to unrestricted free agency no later than the summer of 2017, when he'll be 26 years old and entering his athletic prime.

    The Pacers' deals — Kravitz says that Bird "had a couple of five-year options" when he met with Stephenson at the start of free agency — would have tied Stephenson up through the summer of 2019, when he'll be a couple of months shy of his 29th birthday, with (ideally, from Indy's perspective) two more years of heavy-minutes, deep-playoff-push miles on his legs. A younger Lance with more tread left on his tires is likely to receive a more lucrative third-contract offer than one who will hit 30 after the first year of his next deal.

    Beyond that, the sooner a player can re-enter free agency, the sooner he can reap the benefits of the league's forthcoming windfall. The NBA's current television deal ends after the the 2015-16 season, and Adam Silver and company are reportedly looking to double the rights fees the NBA receives from its broadcast partners in its next TV contract. Broadcast rights revenues are included in basketball-related income (BRI). As BRI increases, so does the pool of money players receive; so, too, does the annual salary cap (which is calculated based on projected BRI) and the amount of a maximum salary (ditto).

    In sum: The more money the league makes, the more money teams can spend on salary and the more money players can make. Those new, richer deals will likely be available in the next couple of years. This is one reason why you're seeing stars like LeBron James opt for two-year mini-max deals rather than a full four- or five-year pact; today's largest long-term possible payday will likely wind up being less lucrative than the largest possible payday available in two summers.

    Of course, there's something to be said for taking today's top guaranteed dollar rather than banking on bigger bucks down the line — it's unlikely that, say, Chris Bosh and Carmelo Anthony will regret choosing to make $26.8 million and $27.9 million (respectively) in 2018-19. But whereas this likely represented the last blowout deal go-around for Bosh and Anthony, the 23-year-old Stephenson is just entering his high-earning years and is willing to bet on himself being able to boost his market value with a primary role on a perhaps-ready-for-prime-time Hornets squad on the rise. It's a gamble, to be sure, but it's one that Bird and the Pacers were unable to convince Stephenson not to take.

    Kravitz reports that "according to Bird, the Pacers were willing to offer a shorter-term contract that would have given Stephenson the chance to cash in should his game continue to grow." As Donahue notes, though, any shorter deal Indiana tendered would almost certainly have paid Stephenson less than he'll make over the next two or three years in Charlotte.

    Kravitz reports that Indy was "willing, however grudgingly, to give Stephenson a player option midway through a five-year contract so that he could opt-out and test the market once the cap money increased." They can't do that. Option clauses only allow contracts to be extended for one additional year beyond their scheduled end dates, so the earliest that Bird could have let Lance opt out of a long-term deal would have been after Year 4, the summer of 2018. The version of Kravitz's story that shows up on USA TODAY's site reflects that CBA reality (" ... to give Stephenson a player option after four years of a five-year contract"), but while that framework would offer one more season of guaranteed salary, it would also still come up shorter than Charlotte's in the first three years and prevent Stephenson from entering free agency for an additional year. It would push Stephenson to give something up on both ends of the deal. Charlotte's doesn't.

    Indy could have finagled its way into enough room to match the first-year salary Charlotte offered Stephenson, but Bird and company would have had to shed nearly $6.1 million in salary to avoid topping the $76.829 million luxury-tax line, as owner Herb Simon has made it clear that he doesn't want to pay the tax. As Kravitz frames it, if the Pacers met Stephenson's price, "they would have been left with a thoroughly depleted bench and been forced to deal with the luxury tax." Forced, though, seems a bit much, and unfairly casts Lance as the heavy. It's not Stephenson's fault that the Pacers are paying George Hill $8 million next year, or Luis Scola nearly $4.9 million, or Ian Mahinmi and Chris Copeland a combined $7.135 million. Those decisions came from the Pacers' brain trust, and now they're paying for them.

    This isn't a matter of Indy thinking Stephenson isn't worth the money he got; Bird's comments about "the value [Stephenson] brought to our team" make that much clear. It's a matter of previous decisions rendering the Pacers unable to match Stephenson's rate without making other concessions, the Pacers being unwilling to make those concessions, and Stephenson choosing a deal that offered more money up front and more freedom down the line — plus a starring role on a team that now may well be just as competitive in the East as Indiana over the next few years — over taking a "hometown discount" on the first big-money contract of his career. It's a pretty reasonable decision once you get past that first-blush head-scratching. It's understandable that Bird finds the outcome "disappointing," but he and the rest of the Pacers front office really don't have anyone to blame but themselves.
    "I'd run through a brick wall for that man."
    - Roy Hibbert on playing for Coach Frank Vogel

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  37. #1173
    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    ^ good take. Scola is getting $4.9 this year? Oof.

    edit: And hilarious Kravitz fixed the "midway" thing for the "national audience" at the USA Today.
    Last edited by dal9; 07-21-2014 at 11:20 PM.

  38. #1174

    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Yeah, a lot of people are underestimating how much playing next to someone like Paul George helps a player like Lance.
    This works both ways. Let us hope that losing Lance does not expose Paul George. Either he will drive to the rim this year or he's likely to have a down year.


    Also, I'd like the known Lance haters to absorb Larry's quote: "When I'd go to practices, when he was on, he was by far our best player."

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  40. #1175
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    Default Re: Lance Stephenson to sign with Charlotte- 3 years $27 million

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    This works both ways. Let us hope that losing Lance does not expose Paul George. Either he will drive to the rim this year or he's likely to have a down year.


    Also, I'd like the known Lance haters to absorb Larry's quote: "When I'd go to practices, when he was on, he was by far our best player."
    Paul has played as the number one option without Lance being the number 2 option before. Including Paul, we still have three players who are better offensive options than Lance. Replacing Lance from last season is easy as we already had a superior player to him on the team playing a lesser role. They player we actually had to replace was Hill, and I think a combination of Miles and Stuckey is more than capable.

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