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Thread: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

  1. #201
    Member Taterhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    You're obviously missing the original point. You said Lance made our offense more dynamic, and I argued that our teams offense has not been any more dynamic since he became a starter.
    And I have no clue how you come to that conclusion. He's clearly a dynamic offensive player and I feel like it's obvious that's the case.

    We'll just agree to disagree Ace.
    "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

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  3. #202
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Are you sure? Looking at BBref, last year was our best shooting year by FG% over the last 3 seasons. I've noted that before, because it seemed weird to me that our offensive efficiency went down when our shooting went up.

    Also, our FTA/FGA and TOV% for the last 2 years are about the same, so I don't agree that we got to the line less and turned the ball over more. What numbers are you looking at?

    Looking at the 4 factors, the one thing that jumps out to me is that offensive rebounding took a steep dive last year. Not sure if it accounts for the entire drop in offensive efficiency though.
    I was comparing the last two years, to the 2011-2012 season in terms of the offense becoming more dynamic, which I don't think to be the case.

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  5. #203
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    And I have no clue how you come to that conclusion. He's clearly a dynamic offensive player and I feel like it's obvious that's the case.

    We'll just agree to disagree Ace.
    A more "dynamic" individual player does not make for a more dynamic team offense.

  6. #204
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I was comparing the last two years, to the 2011-2012 season in terms of the offense becoming more dynamic, which I don't think to be the case.
    Ah. My fault for stepping blind into a Lance argument. I don't even know what "dynamic" means in terms of stats. Can it be measured?

  7. #205
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    A more "dynamic" individual player does not make for a more dynamic team offense.
    Actually it does. The offense is comprised of the players running it. A more dynamic skill set naturally makes the offense more dynamic.

    We have more pop off the dribble and are better in transition with Lance in the line-up. We are more versatile and a bigger threat in more facets of the game. All of that is fairly obvious.

    That is all I mean by more dynamic. I said they were more productive because they produced more, including minutes played. And I feel the reason is because Lance adds those things to the line-up and makes us a better team.

    It is really pretty simple.
    "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

  8. #206
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Ah. My fault for stepping blind into a Lance argument. I don't even know what "dynamic" means in terms of stats. Can it be measured?
    Which is why I utilized what I feel are the stats that show an offense's effectiveness (Off Efficiency Rating). There are other stats to be used for sure

  9. #207

    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Ah. My fault for stepping blind into a Lance argument. I don't even know what "dynamic" means in terms of stats. Can it be measured?
    To me it doesn't have to measured. You either see it or you don't and if you don't then there is should be a logical reason why you don't see that player as dynamic.

    Dynamic to me is a players ability to do multiple things in the offense and not necessairly all at an elite level but at a level that contributes greatly to an offense. Passing, scoring in traffic, pnr, coming off screens, fast breaks etc. Kyle Korver is not dynamic because he only does 2 things really well (coming off screens and a spot up shooter).

    Lance is dynamic because he puts it all together and that ability makes him unpredictable and hard to plan for.

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  11. #208
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I was comparing the last two years, to the 2011-2012 season in terms of the offense becoming more dynamic, which I don't think to be the case.
    By the way, if you compare 11-12 vs 13-14 numbers across the board, it's hard to ignore Roy's massive decline in, well, everything offensive related. Scoring, FG%, FTA, ORB, AST%. Roy's saving grace is that his defense remains stout, but the guy shouldn't touch the ball on offense when his efficiency is so bad relative to his teammates.

    If you're looking for something to blame Lance for, it's the increase in TO%. Danny may have been a **** poor passer but at least he took care of the ball.

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  13. #209
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    By the way, if you compare 11-12 vs 13-14 numbers across the board, it's hard to ignore Roy's massive decline in, well, everything offensive related. Scoring, FG%, FTA, ORB, AST%. Roy's saving grace is that his defense remains stout, but the guy shouldn't touch the ball on offense when his efficiency is so bad relative to his teammates.

    If you're looking for something to blame Lance for, it's the increase in TO%. Danny may have been a **** poor passer but at least he took care of the ball.
    Hard to argue someone is a poor passer, and good at taking care of the ball.

  14. #210
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by ECKrueger View Post
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    Hard to argue someone is a poor passer, and good at taking care of the ball.
    What? One is different from the other. One is about making passes, the other is about losing the ball.

  15. #211

    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    I hope if Lance comes back we turn him loose at point and take our lumps. G. Hill seems much more comfortable attacking off the ball. I think Lance may actually calm down a bit and be a more cerebral player with more responsibility among the starters. That was Larry's vision and I think it's still the way to go despite the growing pains it'll cause. Clearly the comment from Frank about Lance not being a PG was just coach talk. Lance has the skills he just needs to develop the mentality and I don't believe that that's something you have to be born with. It can be learned.
    Last edited by CJ Jones; 07-14-2014 at 04:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison



    I didn't know if anyone had a chance to look at this - but this is a great assessment of Lance's strengths and his weaknesses as a player. Very solid, un-biased scouting. I enjoyed watching the video.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdash
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    Yeah, that's the problem. I don't think anyone on this board is as big of a jerk in person as they come across on here. Except maybe Nuntius. Dude is impossibly nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    He is a saint, cdash. If a mosquito landed on his arm trying to bite him he would tell it " Go on son, do your thing".

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  18. #213
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    [QUOTE=CJ Jones;1889361]I think Lance may actually calm down a bit and be a more cerebral player with more responsibility among the starters. /QUOTE]

    I don't understand this train of thought. So far the more responsibility and freedom he has been given the less cerebral, the less calm, and the less mature he plays. He acted and played more maturely in 12-13 than 13-14.

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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by ECKrueger View Post
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    Hard to argue someone is a poor passer, and good at taking care of the ball.
    Well he generally just shot the ball when he got it, so he had less chance of a turnover.

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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    What? One is different from the other. One is about making passes, the other is about losing the ball.
    Ya and if someone is a poor passer, I'm guess that means they turn it over frequently, and therefor lose the ball.

  22. #216
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I didn't know if anyone had a chance to look at this - but this is a great assessment of Lance's strengths and his weaknesses as a player. Very solid, un-biased scouting. I enjoyed watching the video.
    I would agree, although I think any limitation he has with explosiveness is irrelevant based on the way he plays the game. He is not LeBron James. That same limitation was shared with other great Pacer players like Danny Granger and Reggie Miller...as well as players like Adrian Dantley, David West and even Jermaine O'Neal.

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  24. #217

    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    [QUOTE=Eleazar;1889374]
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    I think Lance may actually calm down a bit and be a more cerebral player with more responsibility among the starters. /QUOTE]

    I don't understand this train of thought. So far the more responsibility and freedom he has been given the less cerebral, the less calm, and the less mature he plays. He acted and played more maturely in 12-13 than 13-14.
    Just a gut feeling really. I think if he comes back and he's making half as much as Parsons and Hayward, guys I'm sure he thinks he's better than, he'll be humbled and revert back to his pre all-star mentality. I would also like to see Hill's usage climb, and I think a good way to do that would be to use Hill like Lance was used last year.

    Lance isn't a bad guy, I doubt he'd purposefully try to **** off his teammates (maybe Roy I guess). At point guard he'd have to do what's asked of him or his teammates would want to choke him, which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. That's how some people have to learn right from wrong. He's the most dynamic player we have with the ball in hands, and if Vogel thinks he's good enough to run the team in the conference finals against Miami's pressure defense then he's good enough to run the team during the season. I think it's foolish to play him off the ball all season then expect him to be comfortable running a team in the playoffs like we asked him to do this year.

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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    I would also like to see Hill's usage climb, and I think a good way to do that would be to use Hill like Lance was used last year.
    I agree, if Lance is back all of our starters need to have usages in the 20's, not 14 like Hill's last season.

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  27. #219
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    [QUOTE=CJ Jones;1889432]
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Just a gut feeling really. I think if he comes back and he's making half as much as Parsons and Hayward, guys I'm sure he thinks he's better than, he'll be humbled and revert back to his pre all-star mentality. I would also like to see Hill's usage climb, and I think a good way to do that would be to use Hill like Lance was used last year.

    Lance isn't a bad guy, I doubt he'd purposefully try to **** off his teammates (maybe Roy I guess). At point guard he'd have to do what's asked of him or his teammates would want to choke him, which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. That's how some people have to learn right from wrong. He's the most dynamic player we have with the ball in hands, and if Vogel thinks he's good enough to run the team in the conference finals against Miami's pressure defense then he's good enough to run the team during the season. I think it's foolish to play him off the ball all season then expect him to be comfortable running a team in the playoffs like we asked him to do this year.
    Hypothetically speaking, you wonder if Lance had the ball more if he would be more inclined to play within himself as opposed to trying the spectacular every play.

    I agree with the usage but until Roy can get his efficiency to the same level as the starters, I feel his usage can come down a bit. He needs to get back to getting easy baskets on putbacks and offensive rebounds. Im a supporter of Roy and I think he's essential to our success, but he needs to find his old form when he was one of the better offensive rebounders In the league. Helps him and the team's offense tremendously

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  29. #220
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    George Hill will get some All-Star buzz this year.

  30. #221

    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    George Hill will get some All-Star buzz this year.
    Absolutely no chance but I like your optimism.

  31. #222
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    Default Re: Lance and George Hill - Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    Absolutely no chance but I like your optimism.
    Yup, he won't be flashy enough to get on ESPN, but he is certainly more than capable of matching Lance's numbers from last season.

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