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Thread: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

  1. #976

    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerPenguins View Post
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    yeah but who drafts a guy saying we are holding onto just incase someone gets hurt
    Who were the Pacers wings when they drafted Granger? Was there really a need for Granger, or did Bird drafted him b/c he fell to him as a no brainer pick?

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    So I'd love to see the Pacers FO and Coaching staff really make a push to get this team functioning offensively like the Spurs. Our offense is actually holding us back right now. We have to get fluid, we actually have 3 good wing players to do it, but guys like David West and Hibbert are a bit lazy offensively with their weak screens and picks. Both Lance and West only look for the scoring passes though.

    Really cool to see the Spurs get just as much penetration into the lane with their passing as they did with drives.

    Interesting to see how these finals were being officiated. They really let these 2 teams play physical. Our Defense would have been great if we made it past Miami.
    Besides ball movement and X's and O's, the biggest issue is selfishness. Hibbert, PG, and Lance obviously care a lot about stats and touches. Hibbert pouts when he feels like he doesn't get enough touches, and Lance obviously cares about padding stats. Now it would be pure lunacy to expect those three to have the maturity of Duncan/Manu/Parker, but the Pacers aren't going to make the next step until our key guys play selfless ball like the Spurs.

    Also, we gotta find some damn shooters. Ball movement can't take you super far if you don't have three point shooters who can punish teams for double teaming.

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I agree. It was a good trade given the circumstances at the time. We needed proven vets after the Chicago series. Those of us on message boards can use three year hindsight, but GM's can't.

    My only point is that it seems like wishful thinking at this point to try to convince one's self that Leonard wouldn't have done much here. Would he have been winning Finals MVP's in year three here? Probably not, but he is a very good player who would succeed anywhere. That being said, he's obviously in a perfect situation that is allowing him to thrive big time.
    Leonard would still be good for us but he wouldn't be as good as he is on San Antonio. That's what I'm trying to say.

    There is also the subject of Lance. Add Leonard to the mix and Lance probably never breaks out since Kawhi takes those opportunities after Danny goes down. Also, if we keep Leonard then Hill doesn't come here and thus we probably don't trade Darren Collison (which would be fine for me) and therefore we never trade for Ian Mahinmi. We also probably don't target Gerald Green in the off-season (since we would already have our wings filled up) and probably aim for more PGs and Cs.

    Our bench (and one spot on our starting line-up) would be entirely different if this trade hadn't happened. Different moves could make us a better team but they could always make us a worse team as well. You just don't know what is going to happen if you change a trade since that alters a team's positional needs that change our off-season planning in return. It's a domino effect.

    So, yeah, Kawhi would still be pretty good. We don't know if we would have the same team, though.
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  6. #979

    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Who were the Pacers wings when they drafted Granger? Was there really a need for Granger, or did Bird drafted him b/c he fell to him as a no brainer pick?
    we werent really lacking at a certain position then... that is why we traded Kawhi for Hill because we NEEDED a point guard

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Besides ball movement and X's and O's, the biggest issue is selfishness. Hibbert, PG, and Lance obviously care a lot about stats and touches. Hibbert pouts when he feels like he doesn't get enough touches, and Lance obviously cares about padding stats. Now it would be pure lunacy to expect those three to have the maturity of Duncan/Manu/Parker, but the Pacers aren't going to make the next step until our key guys play selfless ball like the Spurs.

    Also, we gotta find some damn shooters. Ball movement can't take you super far if you don't have three point shooters who can punish teams for double teaming.
    Well I hope the #1 thing Bird learned from this year is bring in vets for a championship run. Instead he traded a Vet for 2 guys still on their rookie deals. He should have seen it with the way Lance was playing, that these young guys only care about Stats and getting that big contract.
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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Ausitn Daye has a championship!!!!
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    "Great season guys, it's a progression. 10-11 - first round vs Bulls, 11-12 - 2nd round vs Heat, 12-13 - ECF vs Heat, 13-14 - Finals "

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Leonard would still be good for us but he wouldn't be as good as he is on San Antonio. That's what I'm trying to say.

    There is also the subject of Lance. Add Leonard to the mix and Lance probably never breaks out since Kawhi takes those opportunities after Danny goes down. Also, if we keep Leonard then Hill doesn't come here and thus we probably don't trade Darren Collison (which would be fine for me) and therefore we never trade for Ian Mahinmi. We also probably don't target Gerald Green in the off-season (since we would already have our wings filled up) and probably aim for more PGs and Cs.

    Our bench (and one spot on our starting line-up) would be entirely different if this trade hadn't happened. Different moves could make us a better team but they could always make us a worse team as well. You just don't know what is going to happen if you change a trade since that alters a team's positional needs that change our off-season planning in return. It's a domino effect.

    So, yeah, Kawhi would still be pretty good. We don't know if we would have the same team, though.

    I agree with most of your post and that one cannot account for the "what if" domino effect. But remember, even with Granger's suddenly empty spot in 12-13, there was still a completely separate backup wing position that we were trying to get production from. We wanted Green to produce there, but he couldn't. So even if Leonard is on the team and takes Granger's starting spot, there would have still been room for Lance to play a backup wing position or vice-versa. That 12-13 team had a very weak bench and Leonard/Lance would have been a welcome addition.

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I agree with most of your post and that one cannot account for the "what if" domino effect. But remember, even with Granger's suddenly empty spot in 12-13, there was still a completely separate backup wing position that we were trying to get production from. We wanted Green to produce there, but he couldn't. So even if Leonard is on the team and takes Granger's starting spot, there would have still been room for Lance to play a backup wing position or vice-versa. That 12-13 team had a very weak bench and Leonard/Lance would have been a welcome addition.
    They would absolutely be a welcome addition but neither of them would be as good as they currently are.
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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    This has to be one of the most shocking Finals ever, doesn't it? I mean everyone knew that SA was obviously very capable of winning this series, but I think virtually everyone expected it to be a dogfight. For them to win it in such commanding fashion is pretty surprising.

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    They would absolutely be a welcome addition but neither of them would be as good as they currently are.
    Can't say that for certain. I mean the Spurs have Manu Ginobili coming off of the bench and that works for them. You yourself used to be a huge proponent of Lance coming off the bench.

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    This has to be one of the most shocking Finals ever, doesn't it? I mean everyone knew that SA was obviously very capable of winning this series, but I think virtually everyone expected it to be a dogfight. For them to win it in such commanding fashion is pretty surprising.
    Spurs making me look bad after I predicted they would sweep the heat.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Can't say that for certain. I mean the Spurs have Manu Ginobili coming off of the bench and that works for them. You yourself used to be a huge proponent of Lance coming off the bench.
    Yes, I was a huge proponent of Lance coming off the bench. In fact, I did compare Lance to a Manu Ginobili-type player.

    But here's the thing. Lance surpassed those expectations of mine this season. He posted better numbers than Manu and he was our best player in several games. Lance would be posting triple-doubles coming off the bench.

    Would he still be good? Probably. But he wouldn't be as good as he currently is since he wouldn't get as many minutes as he currently does and those minutes played a big role in his improvement.

    In any case, we're just speculating right now. We cannot know what would happen if we never made that trade. We could have ended up being better but we could also have ended up being worse. We will never find out.
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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami


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  21. #989

    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Of course no one does it alone. But Jordan single-handedly took over sooooooo many times in the Finals and literally willed his teams to victories, which is why he is the GOAT. Look at that last game in 1998. Jordan hits a basket to get the Bulls within 1, gets a steal on the next Utah possession, then hits that classic game winning shot for his 45h point. That's why he's the best. Willed his teams to victories on both ends of the court.
    Yes that last shot where he pushed off Byron Russell and was never called for it(now there's a surprise)

    The Jordan narrative gets nauseating with each passing year and if anyone wants to complain about why there's "hero ball" in the NBA its because of Jordan sure the NBA had stars before him but it was within a team concept with the Bulls it was Jordan and others.

    I don't deny his talent and I don't think LeBron is on his level either however people seem to overlook some Finals where he had to rely on others to win like John Paxson to seal it against the Suns in 1993 for example.

    That's conveniently forgotten by most people.

    Of course I also don't think Jordan is the GOAT either.

  22. #990

    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    This has to be one of the most shocking Finals ever, doesn't it? I mean everyone knew that SA was obviously very capable of winning this series, but I think virtually everyone expected it to be a dogfight. For them to win it in such commanding fashion is pretty surprising.
    Well I picked them to win in 5, FWIW.

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    Gonna say Spurs in 5 though for such a lopsided prediction I'm not confident about it.

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    I love this picture of Pops:



    There is more to this picture....when I watched it on TV.....he sat there, took it all in and you can see him appreciate all he's done. What I love is how low key he is. During the entire Award presentation, despite many heaps of praise by every one......he sat to the side, humble as always.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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  25. #992

    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Kawhi is a much better player than Hill. They're not even in the same league.

    The Spurs were the clear winners of that trade and it only took 2 seasons to figure that out.

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Kawhi is a much better player than Hill. They're not even in the same league.

    The Spurs were the clear winners of that trade and it only took 2 seasons to figure that out.
    It's easy to say this now, but even Duncan in his presser tonight was talking about how difficult that trade was for him since he had developed a relationship with George over the years. He referred to George as someone who had played an important role in the team's success up to that point. When Kawhi first came to SA, Duncan admitted that he didn't see "it" right away in him, that he could develop into the player he is today, and he credited Kawhi obviously for working so hard, but also Pop and the rest of the coaching staff. One of the first things they did was to rebuild his jumper from scratch. That's just one of the reasons why I think it's hard to make the argument that Kawhi would be the same player here.

    Looking back on this year's playoffs and hearing Manu talk about the difficulties of that Dallas series only further cemented my respect for Carlisle as a coach. His schemes to "isolate" the Spurs in the pick and rolls, as Manu put it, caused so much trouble for the Spurs because it took away their greatest strength, the ball movement and team play. For all the talk we hear about Spo being an elite coach, I'm surprised he didn't try this. Rather, he played right into SA hands with the aggressive traps on D, as it basically forced SA into their strength, into rotating the ball to get open looks. They just picked the Heat apart all series. The way Pop has adapted to the times and stayed successful through it all over 15 years puts him in the greatest of all time conversation for me. Happy for him, happy for all the players on this team. Well deserved.

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerPenguins View Post
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    If Spurs win the title... Kawhi should get and deserves MVP
    12/27/2005 at Spurs - SamBear - 3

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    I call this picture:



    The moment that LeDecision realized that the Heat wasn't going to win

    or

    The moment that LeDecision realized that he's going to have to go beg Melo to join him in Miami
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Haslem asking; "LeBron, you aren't having another Advil moment are you?"

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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Anyone know where I can watch the game in full. Missed it due to crappy internet.
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    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    I will be happy to see this spurs team in the finals every year until Duncan and Poppovich retire. That team is amazing to watch.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  37. #999

    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Well I hope the #1 thing Bird learned from this year is bring in vets for a championship run. Instead he traded a Vet for 2 guys still on their rookie deals. He should have seen it with the way Lance was playing, that these young guys only care about Stats and getting that big contract.
    As is often the case, it's not that simple.

    He traded 2 relatively inexperienced guys on team friendly deals and a 1st round pick for a vet (Scola). The two young guys had huge seasons for their team, while the vet we acquired was largely a failure.

    My point is that it works both ways. Young players can absolutely help. Old players can, too.

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  39. #1000

    Default Re: 2014 NBA Finals: (1) San Antonio vs. (2) Miami

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Besides ball movement and X's and O's, the biggest issue is selfishness. Hibbert, PG, and Lance obviously care a lot about stats and touches. Hibbert pouts when he feels like he doesn't get enough touches, and Lance obviously cares about padding stats. Now it would be pure lunacy to expect those three to have the maturity of Duncan/Manu/Parker, but the Pacers aren't going to make the next step until our key guys play selfless ball like the Spurs.

    Also, we gotta find some damn shooters. Ball movement can't take you super far if you don't have three point shooters who can punish teams for double teaming.
    I mostly agree, but I don't think PG cares about stats. People forget he was asked to be more aggressive on offense. I just think he's trying to learn the balance.

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