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IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

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  • IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

    Sorry to hijack my own thread here. But I have to. Just have to. Mods, if this needs to be moved/merged, so be it. I just have to say what I have to say here.

    The cardinal flaw of this Pacers squad, in my view, isn't their inconsistency. It's not their (lack of) mental fortitude. It's not a misplaced identity, it's not a stubborn coach or wayward GM direction, and it's not max contract players shrinking in the spotlight.

    In my view, the cardinal flaw of this Pacers squad is that they're just hard to root for.

    Now, I was raised a Pacers fan before any other allegiance. Sure, I would become a Colts fan, an IU fan, a US mens soccer fan, etc. But the Pacers were my first team. I've followed them closely since I was a little kid. Where my fandom varies for other teams, it's always been diehard for the Pacers, even in the uglier years.

    And I have to admit: it's just really hard to root for this team.

    Where to begin? The lazy passing that never gets corrected? The woe-is-me, dejected look of so many players who have bad moments and let that define their night/week/month? The selfish ballhogging, or worse, the get-it-out-of-my-hands-and-please-don't-pass-it-to-me-again passiveness? The lack of offense? The lack of pride on defense? The tough guy persona that's proven a sheep in wolf's clothing when it matters most?

    I could root for the post-Brawl, Fred Jones-led Pacers with ease. Hell, I could root for the Murphleavy trey-spamming JOB squads with ease, because at least where they failed, it was systemic, it was logical, it was just due to a lack of talent.

    This is the most talented Pacers squad I've ever seen. Maybe the most talented they've had; maybe the most talented they will have. And it is full of players who need incentivized to play even remotely respectable basketball.

    Seriously. I've never seen a group of guys (much less All Stars, or would-be All Stars, or max contract players, or well-paid players in general) need more hand-holding, more incentive, more direction on what to do, and why they need to do it, than this group of guys who just go through the motions more often than not.

    This season will end in Game 5 or Game 6. I don't know. I don't even really care anymore; does it matter? Everything is just a formality at this stage. And we can guess at the futures of all involved -- if this team was built to beat the Heat, and can't, does that reflect on players, coaches, management, and how much for each? -- but when it comes down to it, I'm just left with a feeling of resentment toward a team I didn't feel put it all on the line in a year where they had to.

    I just don't see a team you can really root for going forward, as it's currently composed. I'm supposed to get behind a team that has proven they can't get it done, or worse, just don't have the fire/stones for it? I'm supposed to recognize Hibbert as a face of the franchise, when he gives half a season's effort and exhausts most of his energy lamenting himself? I'm supposed to applaud Hill, who sometimes shows up, but mostly doesn't, and is shoehorned into a bad role? I'm supposed to keep waiting on Paul George to finally play like the superstar he's paid to be? I'm supposed to keep waiting for a bench to show up? For Vogel to recognize and address his own flaws?

    I did see a team, that expired (with any consistency) around February, that I could root for. But that team quit. And they quit for dumb reasons. Petty disputes, contract concerns, boo-hoo bad spells, whatever. They gave up, collectively, only to tease here and there because they were too talented not to.

    Look, the Heat may well just be a better team. And that's fine, but you can clearly see where one guy just doesn't close out with any purpose, another doesn't rotate, another three just stand waiting for someone else to be the solution. There isn't any leadership on this team. No accountability. No real heart. Nothing. Just a bunch of guys earning money to go out there and not fulfill their potential.

    I'm not giving up on the franchise by any means. But I just feel it needs to be said: this is the most disappointing team in franchise history, and frankly, if Pacers management should take anything out of this season of alarm, at least from my account, it's that they've simply put together a team that's very difficult to root for.

    EDIT: Should add that I wrote this before Paul George's comments. Just when I think this team can't get any more embarrassing...
    Last edited by Dr. Hibbert; 05-27-2014, 10:00 AM.

  • #2
    Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

    A few mitigating factors--the youth of this team's two best offensive players, the physical limitations of its older ones--keep me from agreeing with you. Yet, I feel you. Ultimately though my beef is more with the way the ******* game is officiated. If you can't see the bias for superstars, then you're blind; if you can see it and you're OK with it, then you are more interested in the fairytale story the league is telling you than true competition. I'm not saying the Pacers are being cheated; they're making enough mistakes to be in a bad position. I'm saying that the league and its benefactors aggressively push a narrative that is pretty obviously supported by the way the games are called. As a fan with two moderately well-functioning eyeballs and (I'd like to think) passable critical thinking skills, I find it kind of maddening. Yet here I am, so they must be doing something right.

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    • #3
      Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

      I'm not disagreeing with you, but in November they were arguably one of the most likable teams in the NBA. What the hell happened?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

        Originally posted by Believe_in_blue View Post
        I'm not disagreeing with you, but in November they were arguably one of the most likable teams in the NBA. What the hell happened?
        Could argue true colors have been shown. Could argue some of it was just inevitable (Hibbert's annual funk, Paul George not really being ready for superstar level offense, George Hill being stuck as a shoehorned player, midrange shooting regressing to the mean, etc.)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

          I find them hard to root for when they have played selfish (late reg. season) or played dumb (stretches in this playoffs). At the same time I loved watching this team from January 2013 to January 2014.

          Bird has a dilemma. If he try's to tweak the offensive deficiencies there is every chance the team will permanently lose it's defensive/smashmouth identity. I hated this about the 90's teams. When they started toying with the personnel on the offensive side of the ball the 94 & 95 teams that dominated physically & defensively disappeared. The team that emerged was really efficient with the ball but always got eliminated by more aggressive teams that owned it on the boards late in games and (short of the occasional Reggie heroics) could get stops late in games with their bigger more athletic personnel.

          Short of drafting the next Jordon or James I just don't think you can expect to be championship relevant in a small market without the identity being elite defense and rebounding. I hope whatever changes Bird makes that he stays the course with this philosophy.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

            Originally posted by Downtown Bang! View Post
            I find them hard to root for when they have played selfish (late reg. season) or played dumb (stretches in this playoffs). At the same time I loved watching this team from January 2013 to January 2014.

            Bird has a dilemma. If he try's to tweak the offensive deficiencies there is every chance the team will permanently lose it's defensive/smashmouth identity. I hated this about the 90's teams. When they started toying with the personnel on the offensive side of the ball the 94 & 95 teams that dominated physically & defensively disappeared. The team that emerged was really efficient with the ball but always got eliminated by more aggressive teams that owned it on the boards late in games and (short of the occasional Reggie heroics) could get stops late in games with their bigger more athletic personnel.

            Short of drafting the next Jordon or James I just don't think you can expect to be championship relevant in a small market without the identity being elite defense and rebounding. I hope whatever changes Bird makes that he stays the course with this philosophy.
            Bird put all his eggs in this year's basket. I don't really see any moves he can make that matter. Just don't have the $ for it, no draft ammo, too many contracts other teams would be scared to take on in exchange. Pretty much the only drama is "will they or won't they?" re-sign (and probably overpay) Lance. And if they don't -- how much of a downgrade is the next guy? Because make no mistake: the 14-15 Pacers will be less talented than the 13-14 Pacers.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

              We've become a bunch of whiny excuse-makers, and that's just really hard for me to stomach.

              (added) It's like we secretly hired Bill Polian, or something.
              Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 05-27-2014, 08:15 PM.
              The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

                Originally posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
                Bird put all his eggs in this year's basket. I don't really see any moves he can make that matter. Just don't have the $ for it, no draft ammo, too many contracts other teams would be scared to take on in exchange. Pretty much the only drama is "will they or won't they?" re-sign (and probably overpay) Lance. And if they don't -- how much of a downgrade is the next guy? Because make no mistake: the 14-15 Pacers will be less talented than the 13-14 Pacers.
                I don't agree with this. Bird is a good executive for a reason. These guys get creative and our core pieces are under contract. I think the 14-15 Pacers could be every bit as talented as this year's group, and a lot more seasoned from what has been an incredibly taxing season in which they have had to learn a lot about themselves and their team.

                What contracts do we have on the books that other teams would be scared to take? Roy's would be the closest and I don't think we would have much of a problem trading him if we wanted to.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

                  Originally posted by cdash View Post
                  I don't agree with this. Bird is a good executive for a reason. These guys get creative and our core pieces are under contract. I think the 14-15 Pacers could be every bit as talented as this year's group, and a lot more seasoned from what has been an incredibly taxing season in which they have had to learn a lot about themselves and their team.

                  What contracts do we have on the books that other teams would be scared to take? Roy's would be the closest and I don't think we would have much of a problem trading him if we wanted to.
                  I would be scared to take the Hibbert or West contracts, and it's probably unrealistic to move the Copeland contract either. I don't know that this team can re-sign Lance, and if they can, not sure that they can do anything else really. If they don't, pretty much guaranteed to be less talented overall. But this group doesn't seem to engage well as-is, so what would realistically improve even if all returned for 2014-15?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

                    Move Hill to the 2. Get a real point guard and profit (Lowry actually is making more and more sense. he's got Lance's swag but in an actual point guard's skill set, he also has a much better jumper than Lance will ever have). Shop Hibbert, but don't give him up at all costs, see if someone will give you a sweet deal. Maybe even use Hill as the 6th man spark. Regardless he's being forced to do something he isn't comfortable with because Bird thinks he should do it. If you get Lowry, then I think you move Hill into a super sub role alongside CJ Watson and have that unit push the pace, then you sign a defensive specialist to start next to PG and take some of that defensive pressure off of him. In this scenario Lance is either part of a S&T or you just let him walk, look I like watching the guy and he excites me, but I'm just not sure it will ever work with him here now that he clearly wants to be "the guy"
                    Last edited by Trader Joe; 05-27-2014, 01:01 PM.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

                      Originally posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
                      I would be scared to take the Hibbert or West contracts, and it's probably unrealistic to move the Copeland contract either. I don't know that this team can re-sign Lance, and if they can, not sure that they can do anything else really. If they don't, pretty much guaranteed to be less talented overall. But this group doesn't seem to engage well as-is, so what would realistically improve even if all returned for 2014-15?
                      You could move Hibbert or West if you wanted to. Those guys have value. What you are getting in return, I don't know. Copeland, yeah, I'm not sure about him.

                      But to answer your bolded question: Learning and growing from the experience of this year. This has been a trying year and I would hope even with what is shaping up to be a disappointing finish that they can take lessons away from this season on what it takes to win. That goes from Vogel down to the players.

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                      • #12
                        Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

                        It should be stated that this team is 100% bi polar eneough to show up and win game 5 and 6 and then you know get blown out at home in game 7 or something.


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

                          Over in RealGM we went from a well respected team to the most hated. Yes, even over the Heat. People are tired of our players antics and general attitude towards things.

                          The worst part is I can't blame them.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

                            Originally posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
                            Over in RealGM we went from a well respected team to the most hated. Yes, even over the Heat. People are tired of our players antics and general attitude towards things.

                            The worst part is I can't blame them.
                            Nope, I can't either. Whining, excuse making, Lance's antics, sense of entitlement, etc. It's an easy team to hate, even if you are a fan.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: IMO, these guys are just hard to root for

                              Originally posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
                              Bird put all his eggs in this year's basket. I don't really see any moves he can make that matter. Just don't have the $ for it, no draft ammo, too many contracts other teams would be scared to take on in exchange. Pretty much the only drama is "will they or won't they?" re-sign (and probably overpay) Lance. And if they don't -- how much of a downgrade is the next guy? Because make no mistake: the 14-15 Pacers will be less talented than the 13-14 Pacers.
                              Other than including the 1st round pick in the Scola trade I don't see where Bird greatly impacted the teams flexibility. In hindsight including that pick stings especially when it looks like a player like McGary could easily be available at that spot.

                              The long-term decision in my mind is do you keep Lance or Hibbert. That decision doesn't need to be made this offseason unless the team gets a great offer for Hibbert or a viable sign & trade materializes for Lance. Ultimately IMO Hibberts impending contract expiration will make that decision necessary and maybe it will come at next seasons trade deadline.

                              Unless Lance & PG make yet another significant leap in productivity I don't think 2015 is the year for this team to be championship relevant again but I do think with some patience that Bird is a good enough "chess player" to make a series of moves that could make a core group from the current team a threat again in 2016.

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