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Coaching or the Players???

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  • #16
    Re: Coaching or the Players???

    Coaching.

    1. New bench every season for Vogel. At some point, all the new players won't help. It's up to the coach to know what players he has and how to utilize them, as well as coach them up. Hawks coach has done a pretty good job of coaching up that bench, which is far worse than the Pacers. Let's look at Scola. He's been relegated to shooting very long mid range jumpers. Dude is savy in the post (and a decent passer) and I don't recall seeing him post much.

    2. ****** offense. 3 years to implement an offensive system and hasn't. It looks like choas out there. Too often guys don't know what to do or where to go. Lots of standing around watching the ball. Where is the off ball movement. Spacing is a huuuuuuuuuge issue. How many times have Lance and PG got by there man to find 2 Hawks defenders in the paint, and have absolutely no one open to throw too? And I mean not open! How the hell does that happen?

    3. Picks/screens break before they even began. Now it's on the player to set a good screen/pick, but how does the coach not correct these simple things? Hawks have been setting great screens all series. Lots of moving screens, but if they aren't getting called, then why aren't we doing the same?

    4. TOs. Turnovers are a huge issue. It's hard to say if this is a coaching or a player issue. This is on the players for the most part, but isn't it on the coach to figure out why we are turning the ball over so much in many of the same ways? If I'm at my job and I mess up and keep making the same mistakes over and over. At some point someone is going to point this out and we work on correcting the problem (hopefully not fired first). I don't see that with this team.

    Bad entry passes. I swear our guys force entry passes all the time. Even a blind man can see most of those steals coming from a mile away. It's on the players for sure, but isn't Vogel making these guys pass it inside?

    Shot clock violations. Wow, does this team love shot clock violations. They waste time getting up the court, waste more time just starting a play and when that doesn't work, it's back to chaos....players play hot potato cause no one wants to force up a shot. Isn't that on the coach to look at tape after a few of these to correct the issue?

    Most of these TOs are a common theme and just keep happening over and over without ever seemingly being resolved. Yes, TOs happen, but I'll be damned if the Pacers TOs are just some of the dumbest TOs I've ever seen and again, keep happening over and over.


    5. Momentum stopping timeouts. How many times have we all seen a team go to the exact same play more than once, twice, three times plus+ before Vogel takes a timeout. Or when the Pacers are up 20 and the lead dwindles to 5 in a mere 4 minutes of play time before Vogel takes a timeout. Too many for me to count.

    6. Cookie cutter lineups. Vogel on several occassions has taken out a guy that is sizzling cause of his cookie cutter lineups. He's gotten better in this regard, but not enough. Not playing Cope when the team is struggling to find offense. I'm not saying Cope is gonna save this team, but if a team is struggling offensively, why do you keep such a scoring threat on the bench? His defense isn't that bad. It's not any worse than Scola.


    Maybe not having a quality pg has really hampered this team. Maybe 4 years of Lance is enough and players can't take his personality anymore.

    Who replaces Vogel though if he's fired? I don't have the answer. Love the guy! At this point, he's just a glorified motivational speaker. I think he really needs to coach at the college level to work out an offense and how to utilize role players.

    Ideal scenario:
    Lance is traded for Eric Bledsoe in a double sign and trade
    Vogel is given 1 more year and hires SVG or someone highly touted offensive coach and implement a solid offense. One with good player movement on and off the ball. No more standing around watching their own d*cks. Setting hard screens/picks.
    Last edited by Sparhawk; 05-01-2014, 03:05 PM.
    First time in a long time, I've been happy with the team that was constructed, and now they struggle. I blame the coach.

    Comment

    • #17
      Re: Coaching or the Players???

      Originally posted by Bball View Post
      BTW... You're not seriously thinking Vogel won't be fired are you? Are you just arguing he shouldn't be fired or do you really, honestly, think he won't be?
      I think he shouldn't and I think he won't.
      “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

      Comment

      • #18
        Re: Coaching or the Players???

        Originally posted by Bball View Post
        The system was weak before but effective enough to win with. With Hibbert turning to a net negative it sunk the system and exposed the flaws and allowed for freelancing (and forcing) to become the norm.
        The system changed before Hibbert went into his funk. They are a jumpshooting team, not a smashmouth team. If watching the games can't convince you of that, just take a look at the shotcharts from this year compared to last year.


        I've been harping on this for months. This was true when Roy's funk was him not rebounding at the rate, long before the bottom fell completely out. I've been saying the loss in OReb #s is due to the types of shots they had been taking.
        Last edited by Since86; 05-01-2014, 03:08 PM.
        “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

        Comment

        • #19
          Re: Coaching or the Players???

          Originally posted by Sparhawk View Post
          Coaching.

          1. New bench every season for Vogel. At some point, all the new players won't help. It's up to the coach to know what players he has and how to utilize them, as well as coach them up. Hawks coach has done a pretty good job of coaching up that bench, which is far worse than the Pacers. Let's look at Scola. He's been relegated to shooting very long mid range jumpers. Dude is savy in the post (and a decent passer) and I don't recall seeing him post much.

          2. ****** offense. 3 years to implement an offensive system and hasn't. It looks like choas out there. Too often guys don't know what to do or where to go. Lots of standing around watching the ball. Where is the off ball movement. Spacing is a huuuuuuuuuge issue. How many times have Lance and PG got by there man to find 2 Hawks defenders in the paint, and have absolutely no one open to throw too? And I mean not open! How the hell does that happen?

          3. Picks/screens break before they even began. Now it's on the player to set a good screen/pick, but how does the coach not correct these simple things? Hawks have been setting great screens all series. Lots of moving screens, but if they aren't getting called, then why aren't we doing the same?

          4. TOs. Turnovers are a huge issue. It's hard to say if this is a coaching or a player issue. This is on the players for the most part, but isn't it on the coach to figure out why we are turning the ball over so much in many of the same ways? If I'm at my job and I mess up and keep making the same mistakes over and over. At some point someone is going to point this out and we work on correcting the problem (hopefully not fired first). I don't see that with this team.

          Bad entry passes. I swear our guys force entry passes all the time. Even a blind man can see most of those steals coming from a mile away. It's on the players for sure, but isn't Vogel making these guys pass it inside?

          Shot clock violations. Wow, does this team love shot clock violations. They waste time getting up the court, waste more time just starting a play and when that doesn't work, it's back to chaos....players play hot potato cause no one wants to force up a shot. Isn't that on the coach to look at tape after a few of these to correct the issue?

          Most of these TOs are a common theme and just keep happening over and over without ever seemingly being resolved. Yes, TOs happen, but I'll be damned if the Pacers TOs are just some of the dumbest TOs I've ever seen and again, keep happening over and over.


          5. Momentum stopping timeouts. How many times have we all seen a team go to the exact same play more than once, twice, three times plus+ before Vogel takes a timeout. Or when the Pacers are up 20 and the lead dwindles to 5 in a mere 4 minutes of play time before Vogel takes a timeout. Too many for me to count.

          6. Cookie cutter lineups. Vogel on several occassions has taken out a guy that is sizzling cause of his cookie cutter lineups. He's gotten better in this regard, but not enough. Not playing Cope when the team is struggling to find offense. I'm not saying Cope is gonna save this team, but if a team is struggling offensively, why do you keep such a scoring threat on the bench? His defense isn't that bad. It's not any worse than Scola.


          Maybe not having a quality pg has really hampered this team. Maybe 4 years of Lance is enough and players can't take his personality anymore.

          Who replaces Vogel though if he's fired? I don't have the answer. Love the guy! At this point, he's just a glorified motivational speaker. I think he really needs to coach at the college level to work out an offense and how to utilize role players.

          Ideal scenario:
          Lance is traded for Eric Bledsoe in a double sign and trade
          Vogel is given 1 more year and hires SVG or someone highly touted offensive coach and implement a solid offense. One with good player movement on and off the ball. No more standing around watching their own d*cks. Setting hard screens/picks.
          I agree with pretty much all of this. But I don't think Vogel can correct the picks and screens. I mean he can't get on the floor and deliver a bruising pick. Its up to David and Roy to put their chests into it and not try to cheat it.
          Last edited by graphic-er; 05-01-2014, 03:12 PM.
          You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

          Comment

          • #20
            Re: Coaching or the Players???

            Originally posted by graphic-er View Post
            I agree with pretty much all of this. But I don't think Vogel can correct the picks and screens. I mean he can't on the floor and deliver a bruising pick. Its up to David and Roy to put their chests into it and not try to cheat it.
            I agree, but how do you not get this corrected in practice? I don't see why this is so hard for the Pacers, but every other team doesn't seem to have this issue.
            First time in a long time, I've been happy with the team that was constructed, and now they struggle. I blame the coach.

            Comment

            • #21
              Re: Coaching or the Players???

              Like most have said, I think it's a little bit of both.

              A few reasons why our offense struggles:

              1. Aside from CJ we just don't have any good shooters on the team right now. Hill was dynamite at it last year, but is average this season. Copeland doesn't play enough to count. Everyone else is a ball handling type of player. At some point you need shooters to space the floor for driving lanes. That open shooting shouldn't mainly come from your guards though, it needs to come from your wings.

              2. We have to be the worst screening team in the league. We used to run pick and pop's with West and Hill beautifully. Now, we hardly EVER set a screen on the ball, and we NEVER set good screens off the ball. Idk if we have any pin down plays, but we rarely use them. Utilizing a pick/screen is one of the most fundamental plays in basketball and we can't/won't do it.

              3. We also have to have the worst bigs in the league when it comes to catching and finishing strong at the basket. We probably miss out on at least 6-10 points per game because of this. There isn't a single big that can catch the ball and finish strong (and it doesn't have to be a dunk, just finish in general) It's bad when our two best finishers around the rim are our guards (Hill and Lantz)

              4. Lack of identity. We used to pound it inside, draw fouls, and rebound our own shot opportunities. It wasn't pretty but it was effective as hell. Now we shoot mid range J's.

              I happen to think we run pretty good plays coming out of timeouts - even if we struggle at hitting the open shot. But I do wonder why we have lost that "fight" in us that used to make us play so hard and tough. Is it because the players have tuned out Vogel? Do we miss B.Shaw more than we think? Who knows.
              Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 05-01-2014, 03:21 PM.

              Comment

              • #22
                Re: Coaching or the Players???

                Originally posted by Sparhawk View Post
                I agree, but how do you not get this corrected in practice? I don't see why this is so hard for the Pacers, but every other team doesn't seem to have this issue.
                Correct and they don't have to be bruising or super hard, just have to be solid, the phrase I will used to define our season is "HALF A**ED"
                Why so SERIOUS

                Comment

                • #23
                  Re: Coaching or the Players???

                  Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                  There are at least two issues here.

                  Quite simply here are the two issues.

                  1) The players have tuned out the coach/coaching staff and that makes our offense look really bad. We went from average in the whole NBA to one of the worst since March 1st.

                  If you don't believe they have tuned the coaches out, OK, but I think everyone can admit the chemistry that was so good between the players and coaches for over three years has fallen apart. Might not be the coaches fault at all. Might be the three year tune out factor. Or maybe player chemistry problems has caused such a problem everything is impacted.

                  2) Talent: We probably do have the least offensive talent in the playoffs. We probably have more than the Bulls have right now without Rose and after the Deng trade. We are even IMo with the Grizzlies. But I'd argue we have less than the other 14 teams.\

                  I asked this in another thread:
                  Can someone else name another playoff team (exept maybe the Bulls) that has less or more inconsistant playmaking at the guard or small forward positions
                  Also the offense on this team works much better when we had a capable Hibbert. He was a decent inside scoring option, and his size was always a threat. His complete decline has put more pressure on playmaking from the guards to create open shots, and Hill doesn't work well as a point guard (which is a shame as that's his position with this current team.) Before the Hibbert decline, I would have put us as middle of the pack, now maybe only above the Bulls and Charlotte.
                  Danger Zone

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Re: Coaching or the Players???

                    I think the problem with turnovers stem's from no real ball handlers. PG is a sloppy ball handler, Lance's style is high turnover prone, and Hill is our point guard and he can't dribble out of double teams, leading to about 3 turnovers a game by itself.
                    Danger Zone

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      Re: Coaching or the Players???

                      Originally posted by Really? View Post
                      this is why I stress the importance of defense for our team that is what we are built around, and if we can not get that back, no matter how much our offense improves we are still barely over a .500 team.
                      I don't think there is any question our offense is worse now than it was during the first half of the season. But I'm not really sure our defense is to be excused, either. Seems like our defense was creating easy opportunities back then far more than now.

                      So... in regards to your question, could I offer a C option? It seems to me we're involved in more up-and-down games than we were early in the season. I think as the season wore on and as opposing teams scouted us, the more these teams realized that running on us and keeping the pace high prevented us from setting our defense. I'm not saying this is the primary reason for our decline, but I think it is part of it.

                      In terms of distributing blame with player vs coach... man, that's a tough one. It's a lazy answer to say "both", but nevertheless that's exactly what I think it is. On on hand there is only so much Vogel can do. It's a long season and you can't be ripping into these players Bobby Knight- style. You're going to get run out of the league that way. There have been times, though, it seemed like the Pacers have begun games with a refreshed mentality, sharing the ball, etc. During those moments I think "Good job, Frank". Sustaining that refreshed mentality for 48 minutes has been the problem, though.

                      Mentally this team just isn't there. Every time we win I get the sense that the players have a collective exhale, as if we're back and the pressure is off. Then we come out too nonchalant the next game.

                      I'm also not sure we have an ideal floor leader. Everyone seems to think that's David West's role, but I'm not so sure.
                      Last edited by Randolph_HorseLips; 05-01-2014, 03:44 PM.

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        Re: Coaching or the Players???

                        Originally posted by Rogco View Post
                        I think the problem with turnovers stem's from no real ball handlers. PG is a sloppy ball handler, Lance's style is high turnover prone, and Hill is our point guard and he can't dribble out of double teams, leading to about 3 turnovers a game by itself.
                        Hill doesn't even average two turnovers a game.

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          Re: Coaching or the Players???

                          Originally posted by Randolph_HorseLips View Post
                          I don't think there is any question our offense is worse now than it was during the first half of the season. But I'm not really sure our defense is to be excused, either. Seems like our defense was creating easy opportunities back then far more than now.

                          So... in regards to your question, could I offer a C option? It seems to me we're involved in more up-and-down games than we were early in the season. I think as the season wore on and as opposing teams scouted us, the more these teams realized that running on us and keeping the pace high prevented us from setting our defense. I'm not saying this is the primary reason for our decline, but I think it is part of it.

                          In terms of distributing blame with player vs coach... man, that's a tough one. It's a lazy answer to say "both", but nevertheless that's exactly what I think it is. On on hand there is only so much Vogel can do. It's a long season and you can't be ripping into these players Bobby Knight- style. You're going to get run out of the league that way. There have been times it seemed like the Pacers have begun games with a refreshed mentality, sharing the ball, etc. Sustaining it has been the problem.

                          Mentally this team just isn't there. Every time we win I get the sense that the players have a collective exhale, as if we're back and the pressure is off. Then we come out too nonchalant the next game.
                          Yeah, I think the defense is slumping bad, we have lazy double teams, we play lazy zones, we keep allowing Roy to be matched up against Teague on the 3 point line, lol that is pretty ridiculous. But yeah mentality definitely is not there. As far as bobby night, I think every coach has a bobby knight lite moment, I think it can be good for a team at times, but yeah too much of that won't turnout well.

                          Thanks for the comment.
                          Why so SERIOUS

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                          • #28
                            Re: Coaching or the Players???

                            Both.

                            The coaches are not using our players to their strengths and putting too much faith into good but not great offensive players who are poor decision makers, while limiting the usage of a smarter player. Might just be my perception, but this team tends to have much much better ball movement when only one of Lance or Paul are on the court. Butler should have gotten 10ish minutes per game once Granger was traded. We needed his shooting and smarts on the court.

                            The players (mostly Paul and Lance) think they are better than they are, and are poor decision makers. The poor decision making leads to turnovers and bad shots.

                            We have a bad system, but the players make it look worse than it really is. I think Vogel has bought into Paul and Lance too much which is part of why it is bad. West should be our "point guard", working out of the high post. When we post Roy, there should be more motion of the players look to get open shots if Roy isn't able to get a shot early. There needs to be a rule where if you are not able to shoot or drive within 2 seconds of receiving the ball you pass it. If you can't get it into Roy within 2 seconds you pass it and/or Roy sets a screen.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Coaching or the Players???

                              Hard for me to put too much on Frank when our offense when run properly actually results in wide open shots, even close up shots, that some of our players just flat out miss. Both West & Hibbert have missed so many shots right at the rim that I don't know how Frank has any hair left in his head at all.

                              Also our outside shooting is poor at best on most nights and we have no one that the other team has to follow around for fear they will burn them with three's. George on occasion but he is inconsistent.

                              The problem was that our post players started to become very inconsistent early in the year and then our offense started to change to a more perimeter based attack. We don't have the ball handlers, passers or shooters to run that type of offense and when your post players can't post up well you get what we have gotten.

                              I was thinking this morning about the fact that our biggest problem is that we do not have any bigs that are athletic or fast enough (or in Mahinmi's case good enough) to actually run a solid pick and roll, all they can do is run the pick and pop and the Hawks have that well scouted and covered on defense.

                              Frank doesn't get a pass either, the barely touching anyone on a pick is not new. The slip screen/pick has been standard since he took over and I don't know why. It doesn't open up any form of offense at all and because we do not have quick guards it really is almost a waste of time.

                              I think we have talent but we have the wrong kind of talent.


                              Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                              • #30
                                Re: Coaching or the Players???

                                To those pointing out our great 1st half of the year I'll remind you that during that period we played like puppy doodoo the 1st half of games and relied on fantastic 3rd quarters to save our asses. We never came out prepared to play except in the really big games...then the bottom fell out and it only got worse.
                                Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

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