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Thread: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen View Post
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    If teams can't keep players from playing, how did the Spurs do so with Manu? I really don't care either way, but if I was a contender ready to go for a ring I might ask the player to consider not playing.
    Because Manu is already injured, thereby playing basketball while recovering poses a serious health risk. That's the only circumstance where NBA teams have a say.

    the NBA/FIBA agreement states that NBA teams can not prohibit their players from playing except under circumstances where they're recovering from an injury.

    Cuban's tried asking Dirk to not play for Germany for the last decade. Dirk has told Cuban to go **** himself every time.
    Last edited by Kstat; 08-16-2014 at 12:15 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Simon isn't hurting for cash either.

    This is nothing but BS mentality just b/c Simon is a billionaire doesn't mean a 10-12 million loss isn't of value to him. Too many people view someone elses wealth from a poor man's view, b/c they don't have wealth themselves.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    This is nothing but BS mentality just b/c Simon is a billionaire doesn't mean a 10-12 million loss isn't of value to him. Too many people view someone elses wealth from a poor man's view, b/c they don't have wealth themselves.
    yeah, and just because Paul George gets paid to play basketball doesn't means he's Simon's property. In case of paying his salary, that's what insurance companies are for.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    yeah, and just because Paul George gets paid to play basketball doesn't means he's Simon's property. In case of paying his salary, that's what insurance companies are for.
    That's right. Nobody owns anyone. Paul doesn't have the right to participate in the NBA either unless he signs a contract. He is also completely free to walk away and never come back. The NBA isn't some kind of charity to make the players rich.

    Edit...and who pay the rising insurance premiums? Somebody else, right?

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    That's right. Nobody owns anyone. Paul doesn't have the right to participate in the NBA either unless he signs a contract. He is also completely free to walk away and never come back. The NBA isn't some kind of charity to make the players rich.
    Not getting into the circular "if they don't like it they can go work regular jobs" argument again. Guess what? They can't put it into the contract. Sorry.

    The NBA isn't a charity, and it's also not a circus, and the players are not animals that only get let out of their cages when its time to perform. The NBA cannot, should not and will never be able to prevent players from non-risky activities, especially playing basketball. The sooner you accept this and face reality the better off we'll all be.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Edit...and who pay the rising insurance premiums? Somebody else, right?
    Yeah, I'd love to see you chastise George Hill at his next round of paintball for gambling with his health and explain to him how he's the reason insurance rates are too high....

    Your original point was that nobody owns anyone. Clearly, you don't actually believe that.
    Last edited by Kstat; 08-16-2014 at 10:49 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Not getting into the circular "if they don't like it they can go work regular jobs" argument again. Guess what? They can't put it into the contract. Sorry.

    The NBA isn't a charity, and it's also not a circus, and the players are not animals that only get let out of their cages when its time to perform. The NBA cannot, should not and will never be able to prevent players from non-risky activities, especially playing basketball. The sooner you accept this and face reality the better off we'll all be.



    Yeah, I'd love to see you chastise George Hill at his next round of paintball for gambling with his health and explain to him how he's the reason insurance rates are too high....

    Your original point was that nobody owns anyone. Clearly, you don't actually believe that.
    There's a difference between owning someone and putting restrictions on their actions that might result in financial loss. George Hill playing paintball once or twice a year is a big difference between Paul George playing in many, many practices and games overseas.

    Any time you take a job, you cannot simply do whatever you want. There are rules we all have to follow. Let's say I was an employee (I actually run a business) and wanted to start a business. What if that time spent affected my performance on the job? I should be fired for that. If I want to be my "own man", I should go out and start my own business. Until then, as an employee, you have to play by the rules set by the employer. Otherwise, you are 100% free to go start your own business or find a job fitting your tastes. That is how the world works Kstat...

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    There's a difference between owning someone and putting restrictions on their actions that might result in financial loss. George Hill playing paintball once or twice a year is a big difference between Paul George playing in many, many practices and games overseas.

    Any time you take a job, you cannot simply do whatever you want. There are rules we all have to follow. Let's say I was an employee (I actually run a business) and wanted to start a business. What if that time spent affected my performance on the job? I should be fired for that. If I want to be my "own man", I should go out and start my own business. Until then, as an employee, you have to play by the rules set by the employer. Otherwise, you are 100% free to go start your own business or find a job fitting your tastes. That is how the world works Kstat...
    Guess what? the rules say the players can play basketball whenever they want, no matter how much you hate it. You are 100% free to go start your own league where you control every aspect of your employee's lives. That's how the world works...

    paintball is just an example. Players train hard in the offseason to get ready for the regular season, which often includes playing basketball (you know, that thing they do for a living?). All of that comes with a small degree of risk. That's how professional sports work. You push your body to its limits in order to build it up. There is no 100% safe way to physically improve at the highest level.

    The "time spent affecting job performance" is utterly laughable given that 99.9% of these guys come into camp in the best shape of their lives and have career seasons....

    Comparing professional basketball to your job is probably not the best idea.
    Last edited by Kstat; 08-16-2014 at 11:04 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Guess what? the rules say the players can play basketball whenever they want, no matter how much you hate it. You are 100% free to go start your own league where you control every aspect of your employee's lives. That's how the world works...
    As long as the rules allow it, that's fine. That's the owner's decision for agreeing to it. But to say they cannot seek to modify the contract to recoup losses they incur because players take risks the owner's don't want them to take...is simply wrong. They may decide the contracts shouldn't be as lucrative. In any event, someone has to bear the costs of that risk and it's not going to be the owners because they are not taking the risk.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    I didn't say they couldn't seek to modify it. I said they wouldn't. It's a fight they won't win and shouldn't win.

    One guy getting seriously hurt in 22 years is not going to cause mass panic among (relatively) smart businessmen. The owners see the same results as everyone else. The vast majority of players not only promote their league overseas but come back in the best possible condition. Given how much money the NBA rakes in from foreign markets compared to other American leagues, they'd be stupid and short sighted to even consider it.

    From a PR standpoint it would be suicide for all the reasons I already laid out.

    And stop referring to basketball as "a risk." Taking a shower is a "risk." Exactly what activities in everyday life aren't a "risk" by that standard?
    Last edited by Kstat; 08-16-2014 at 11:12 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    One of the inherent flaws in this argument, is comparing professional sport athletes as regular employees who work for some firm. Maybe a better comparison is that of CEOs, in either professions you have to take risks to reach the pinnacle of your profession. If the risk doesn't work out you lose out, but you still get paid a bunch loads as a CEO or as an athlete.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    One of the inherent flaws in this argument, is comparing professional sport athletes as regular employees who work for some firm. Maybe a better comparison is that of CEOs, in either professions you have to take risks to reach the pinnacle of your profession. If the risk doesn't work out you lose out, but you still get paid a bunch loads as a CEO or as an athlete.
    it's like banning the CEO from typing because he might get Carpal Tunnel

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Talk about a hijacked thread.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    I'm jumping in here at the end without reading it all, but I do know that writing stuff into a players contract prohibiting certain activities is not unheard of. For example, Drew Brees cannot ride a motorcycle while he is a member of the Saints.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    I'm jumping in here at the end without reading it all, but I do know that writing stuff into a players contract prohibiting certain activities is not unheard of. For example, Drew Brees cannot ride a motorcycle while he is a member of the Saints.
    prohibiting Brees from riding a motorcycle isn't the same thing as prohibiting him from throwing a football unless he's in a Saints jersey. that's what some people (who apparently don't understand how basketball players get better at playing basketball) want the Pacers to do with PG apparently.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Why bothering arguing this? One is all union all the time. And some are conservative company rights all the time. You are not going to convince each other. Save it for the next lockout or strike.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    it's like banning the CEO from typing because he might get Carpal Tunnel
    Not really. A CEO can still use his voice and his mind. He or she can also have their admin type. Paul, on the other hand, cannot do that. I suppose he can but I doubt his admin will be capable of guarding LeBron James.

    This is more like the airline pilot who decides to fly that CEO around the country. The pilot has a crash landing and lives but cannot fly for his regular gig because he's injured. Does that guy keep getting paid? I seriously doubt it. NBA players are the exception to the rule in that they have a contract that guarantees their pay. That *should* come with a price and that means they should have to accept the risk for their actions. That either means the contracts can be voided or their pay is reduced. That is business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Not really. A CEO can still use his voice and his mind. He or she can also have their admin type. Paul, on the other hand, cannot do that. I suppose he can but I doubt his admin will be capable of guarding LeBron James.

    This is more like the airline pilot who decides to fly that CEO around the country. The pilot has a crash landing and lives but cannot fly for his regular gig because he's injured. Does that guy keep getting paid? I seriously doubt it. NBA players are the exception to the rule in that they have a contract that guarantees their pay. That *should* come with a price and that means they should have to accept the risk for their actions. That either means the contracts can be voided or their pay is reduced. That is business.
    only rookie scale contracts have to be guaranteed. there's nothing in the CBA about it. guaranteed deals are ENTIRELY on the executives.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    only rookie scale contracts have to be guaranteed. there's nothing in the CBA about it. guaranteed deals are ENTIRELY on the executives.
    Agreed. The owners have accepted the risk and they are now paying for it. However, I doubt they want to accept the risk for Player A to go overseas and play competitive basketball. The injury to Paul and minor injury do DeMarcus will factor into the calculus of the CBA and the salary structure whether or not anyone wants that to happen. Like any business risk, there is a cost on both sides to a negotiation.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Not really. A CEO can still use his voice and his mind. He or she can also have their admin type. Paul, on the other hand, cannot do that. I suppose he can but I doubt his admin will be capable of guarding LeBron James.

    This is more like the airline pilot who decides to fly that CEO around the country. The pilot has a crash landing and lives but cannot fly for his regular gig because he's injured. Does that guy keep getting paid? I seriously doubt it. NBA players are the exception to the rule in that they have a contract that guarantees their pay. That *should* come with a price and that means they should have to accept the risk for their actions. That either means the contracts can be voided or their pay is reduced. That is business.
    You have kind of touched on an interesting point.

    How many of these players would be risking injury by playing with the World Games team if their NBA contracts were not guaranteed?

    My guess is, some would have serious second thoughts about it, and a few would decline the offer to play. Some, like KD, have headed on home.
    Last edited by Tom White; 08-16-2014 at 05:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    You have kind of touched on an interesting point.

    How many of these players would be risking injury by playing with the World Games team if their NBA contracts were not guaranteed?
    Probably most of them, given that most basketball players don't step on a floor thinking they're going to get hurt.

    This is like asking how many players would lift weights or train in the summer if they were at risk of getting released if they got hurt.

    People that think like that are why I'm glad almost all contracts are guaranteed. Yeah, let's punish players for accidentally getting hurt while improving themselves....great mentality.

    Future NBA stars were trying out for the Olympic team during the NBA draft in 1984. They didn't even have jobs yet. By this brilliant logic, they all should have boycotted.

    BTW, we had a summer where players were asked not to do anything basketball-related. It was the summer of 1998 and 2/3 of the players came into that season out of shape and everyone blasted them for it. But those same hypocrites would rip them if they got hurt playing ball because it wasn't on an NBA floor.
    Last edited by Kstat; 08-16-2014 at 05:27 PM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Agreed. The owners have accepted the risk and they are now paying for it. However, I doubt they want to accept the risk for Player A to go overseas and play competitive basketball. The injury to Paul and minor injury do DeMarcus will factor into the calculus of the CBA and the salary structure whether or not anyone wants that to happen. Like any business risk, there is a cost on both sides to a negotiation.
    Just to be clear, this isn't a CBA thing. Players have to ask their NBA teams for clearance to play for their national teams, and they can be denied (such as Manu Ginobili this year). It's the NBA which has an agreement with FIBA, that NBA teams will normally release their players to play internationally.

    So the NBA could theoretically stop this arrangement at any time, without waiting for any CBA negotiation with the players. Obviously though, the NBA sees benefits in this arrangement.

    There is nothing in the CBA that says players have the right to play in pickup games or join international competitions btw. These things are explicitly negotiated in individual player contracts. Pickup games are allowed by the so-called "love of the game" clause made popular by Jordan, and is apparently a very common clause in player contracts nowadays. I'm assuming Paul George has this clause too since he was scheduled to play in the Knox Indy Pro Am before his injury. Again, note that this is something that teams negotiate individually with players. International play is less common, but Yao Ming at least reportedly had a clause in his contract guaranteeing his availability for his national team.
    Last edited by wintermute; 08-16-2014 at 05:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    They don't have to ask unless they're medically unfit to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    I'm assuming Paul George has this clause too since he was scheduled to play in the Knox Indy Pro Am.
    ...which not one person here would have complained about, since it isn't televised and that's how attention spans are here apparently.
    Last edited by Kstat; 08-16-2014 at 05:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    They don't have to ask unless they're medically unfit to play.
    Wait what? If they're medically unfit to play, what are they going to do in their national teams? Cheer from the sidelines? They don't need clearance for that, I hope.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Wait what? If they're medically unfit to play, what are they going to do in their national teams? Cheer from the sidelines? They don't need clearance for that, I hope.
    Manu needed special clearance because he had a stress fracture in his right leg. He still could have played but it wasn't medically advisable.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    yeah, and just because Paul George gets paid to play basketball doesn't means he's Simon's property. In case of paying his salary, that's what insurance companies are for.
    Right. Last I heard we did away with that kind of thing about 1864. But I haven't been watching the news lately so things may have changed.

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