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Thread: Ok, it's officially time to panic

  1. #51
    Member Speed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Is this bottom? Maybe its tomorrow. I thought I saw a glimpse last game of a turn around at the end, SA is absolutely rolling, too smh

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    One or more of the players are the issue. This has the feel of the Ron Artest & Jermaine O'Neal back room wars. There is a fly in the ointment.
    You know, it is very possible. Both Hibbert and George are young guys who just got paid, but have fairly big egos and there are limited albeit apparent indications in the press that things may be tense between them. And Lance knows he's getting paid this offseason no matter what by someone. If things go bad and the Pacers then don't make a really concerted effort to keep Lance, we may know who was blamed. However, if all that goes down, Paul George better nut up next year.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    I'm at the same point as a lot of you in that I really don't know what to say. I've never seen a team so dominant turn so mediocre with the same players in the same season. Yes Granger was moved but for the most part we have the same team. I've seen a lot of you defend Vogel in the other threads but it's proven we have the players to win against anyone. I really think Vogel has lost this team. Maybe I'm wrong and I hope that I am but we'll never have this much talent again. It's proven that Vogel doesn't get the most of the bench in how well we see players perform after they leave here and how we see their numbers go down when they join our bench, but Frank's not getting the most of our starters now either. If Vogel can't get it done with these players and falls short in the playoffs I think he has to go.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    Anybody know what the attendance numbers are for March compared to the rest of the season? The Pacers uninspired play hasn't hurt their attendance yet has it?
    They actually sold out all 6 home games in March.
    @qandrews9428

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  6. #55
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    They actually sold out all 6 home games in March.
    Kudos to the fans showing up!

  7. #56

    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    I'm not panicking, because I feel this team is better than Miami on either court. I think they're just gassed, in large part because Vogel hasn't given guys many nights off (also hasn't reduced the starters' minutes to explore a deeper rotation), and that has led to a lot of finger pointing from guys who don't know what they're talking about, and that leads to a whole bunch of confusion.

    Case in point, Roy Hibbert. The guy pretty much calls out Lance Stephenson for shooting too much and says Paul George has the green light and he trusts Paul George because he's earned it. Well, guess who is our worst shooter during this stretch, and who keeps chucking despite being ice cold? Hint: it isn't even close. And Hibbert was doing this finger pointing while stinking up the joint, especially on the boards. His rebounding is absolutely inexcusable, and I dare any of you to say otherwise.

    For the record, I am ok with Paul George trying to shoot through his slump. Our 7'2 max extension center should be grabbing some of those misses and it just isn't happening.

    I am sick and tired of the Lance blaming, though. I even read people saying he should be starting in the 2nd unit to give them some firepower. Uhh, why not demote George Hill? He's the one who lacks playmaking ability, who frequently struggles to guard his opponent, who contributes little if anything on a nightly basis. Seems to me like he would really benefit from leading the 2nd unit, but then again, it also seems that he's the new Danny Granger for some of you... aka Mr Untouchable.

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  9. #57
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I don't think that the main reason for the team's struggles are due to the fact that we traded a guy averaging 35.9% from the field in 22.5 MPG for a guy who is shooting 41.4% from the field in 21.7 MPG. If anything, we should have Turner shoot the three more considering that he is 7-16 from three point land since coming here.

    Has Turner been as effective as we hoped he would be when he made the trade? No, but this idea that the team fell apart because of Granger's absence is just really far fetched. If his absence caused the best team in the league to crumble, then that's basically saying that he is one of the most important players in the league despite being a 8.3 PPG player who missed the first two months of the season and wasn't even playing when we went to the ECF's last year. If Granger had been a key contributor on last year's team and then been a major contributor on our team this season, then I would be the first to say that we missed him. But he was a complete shell of his old self and wasn't that important anymore.

    Our issues aren't because of the bench. We're struggling because the once dominant starting lineup is playing like crap for the most part - the starting lineup who took Miami to 7 last year with basically no help from the bench. Hibbert gets shoved out position too easily, has shot a weak percentage all year, doesn't rebound well, and has had way too many opponents put up KG numbers on him lately. West has struggled a bit recently. George Hill gets torched by virtually every PG in the league and been shooting the ball like crap lately, plus it seems like he is struggling to find his role on this current team. Lance has IMO been our most consistent player, but he certainly has had too many moments where he dribbles too much, turns it over, and is generally unpredictable.

    The biggest of all problems, IMHO, is that the guy who was championed as the next Lebron and Durant has generally been awful from the offensive end lately. This is a trend that was starting long before Granger left, and it's reached a complete boiling point. I put the most blame on PG because I think we should expect the most from him. He is the guy who went toe to toe with Lebron in the ECF's, signed the huge contract before the season started, got the Gatorade commercials, started in the all-star game, and in general just received a massive amount of hype. He backed it up in the first two months of the league and was playing like the MVP throughout the new year. But all of the talk about how he was the next big thing began to get to his head. He started playing as if the only way the Pacers could win is if he had a Durant-like impact on the game. There have been a ton of crappy predictable ISO's, forced jumpers, sloppy takes to the bucket, and a lot of complaints to the refs. That all translates to a 41.0 FG% in January, a 40.1% in February, and an especially awful 37.1% in March. This is far too long to be a mere "slump". We're talking 43 games here.....a little over half the season. His selfish style of offense has caused a domino effect that has hurt everything.

    We're struggling because our starters are playing far below their ability. It's not because we swapped bench players.
    Its not the Lack of Granger on the team or his poor shooting percentage, it was his role on the team. Before Granger got back into the line up that role fell to Solo Hill or Rasual Butler. The guy who can defend, and spot up at the 3 point line. Move the ball around, make the correct play. The addition of Turner doesn't not fit that role. The Pacers need that role player on the floor playing big minutes. The guy who plays unselfishly.
    Lance stepped up his game when both Granger and Scola started slumping. But he forgot to bring those guys along and keep them engaged once his name was being thrown around for All-Star consideration. He brought the same play to the starting unit. Ball stopping ISO's. You can't have 2 guys in the same line up playing ISO ball from the perimeter like PG and Lance do.

    I do totally agree that PG and Roy is a major problem, and that is the reason why we can't even beat **** poor teams these days. But Lance not playing the right way has a major affect on the success of PG and Roy.

    Again, Basketball teams have to have clear roles. Granger knew his role, Butler and Solo knew their roles. Turner has no clue what his role is. Lance changed his role just cause he wanted to "get Paid"
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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  11. #58
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    I think both Lance and Turner are gone after the season if things continue as is, and the Pacers get themselves a true shooter at SG, I don't think the Pacers can resign either of them if they plan to tweak the team any, if things don't work out.

    Firing Frank may or may not be the best thing to do, I don't really know who would be better out there honestly.

    I think the Pacers will try and S&T Lance for pick(s) and get some veteran shooters to keep PG, West, George Hill and Hibbert in line. I see Hill, Watson, Sloan, PG, Solo, Cope, West, Hibbert, and Ian staying on the team and filling out the rest.
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

    ----------------- Reggie Miller

  12. #59

    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    I just don't buy the "we are tired" excuse.

    Spurs should be more tired than us.

    It is just annoying that you know that there is a huge problem but you don't know where it is.
    Even the player and the coach said they don't know.

    Shiiit.

  13. #60
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
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    I just don't buy the "we are tired" excuse.

    Spurs should be more tired than us.

    It is just annoying that you know that there is a huge problem but you don't know where it is.
    Even the player and the coach said they don't know.

    Shiiit.
    The guy that was averaging 24ppg and shooting 48% the first 3 months of the season just had a month where he averaged just under 19 and shot 37%..

    The center that started that same stretch averaging 13 points, about 8.5 boards and nearly 3 blocks a game on roughly 47% spent march averaging 9.4 points, 1.9 blocks and 4.5 rebounds on 43% shooting.

    No reason to oversimplify this. The two max contract players are playing terrible. There are drop offs here and there throughout the roster, but nothing remotely close to what Hibbert and George are going through.

    I'm pretty sure they're well aware of why the entire team is in a horrendous funk. They won't say it, but they know.
    Last edited by Kstat; 03-31-2014 at 06:15 AM.

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  15. #61
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    I agree with Kstat - the players know, the coaches know.

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  17. #62
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Is this bottom? Maybe its tomorrow. I thought I saw a glimpse last game of a turn around at the end, SA is absolutely rolling, too smh
    Well I guess David West read my post, it is the bottom. Good I now look forward to the next 3 months.

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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The guy that was averaging 24ppg and shooting 48% the first 3 months of the season just had a month where he averaged just under 19 and shot 37%..

    And that's after a 41.0% January and 40.1% February. He's had three month's worth of terrible offense that reached an especially awful boiling point in March.

    Your simple analysis is spot on. Hibbert and George were dominant in the playoffs last year and deserved all of the accolades when we went to Game 7 of the ECF's. But now they both stink. PG at least looks like he has a pulse most night, but he just can't convert. Hibbert OTOH has just generally played like a fragile wuss.

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  20. #64

    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The guy that was averaging 24ppg and shooting 48% the first 3 months of the season just had a month where he averaged just under 19 and shot 37%..

    The center that started that same stretch averaging 13 points, about 8.5 boards and nearly 3 blocks a game on roughly 47% spent march averaging 9.4 points, 1.9 blocks and 4.5 rebounds on 43% shooting.

    No reason to oversimplify this. The two max contract players are playing terrible. There are drop offs here and there throughout the roster, but nothing remotely close to what Hibbert and George are going through.

    I'm pretty sure they're well aware of why the entire team is in a horrendous funk. They won't say it, but they know.


    Which is? Because I'm mentally and emotionally fatigued with this team.

  21. #65

    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Hibbert frustrate me more than PG..you're 7'2..you don't box out or snatch rebounds. And why the hell do he keep shooting outside??? As big as he is, if he miss, he should be snatching O rebounds and putting it back with ease!

  22. #66

    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by 31Since1990 View Post
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    Hibbert frustrate me more than PG..you're 7'2..you don't box out or snatch rebounds. And why the hell do he keep shooting outside??? As big as he is, if he miss, he should be snatching O rebounds and putting it back with ease!
    There is also no reason your "All-Star" 7-foot center is also 25 feet away from the basket making screens.
    Here we come lottery?

  23. #67
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    As a guy who has had more than a few "negative Nancy" moments on this board over the past few months, I want to go in a different direction. First, my Spring resolution is not so say one negative thing about Lance Stephenson. It serves no purpose. Same is true of Roy and PG. We are what are and there is absolutely no quick fix (or even medium term fix) so we dig in and really find out about ourselves.

    Maybe as the weather warms, and guys who used to talk about how close this team is/was, will look around the lockerroom and regain the We are Family thing. It is so incredibly hard and rare to be able to make a run for the title. If they fold and go off prematurely, they may never get as good a look every again. Maybe this will sink in.

    Individually, the entire starting 5 has weaknesses that put them outside of the top of the list of the best players at their positions. Collectively, like earlier in the season, their team defense and sharing of the ball made them a unique (outside of SA) and a hard to beat entity in the NBA. But playing that way is hard and requires massive amounts of energy. It is easier and lazier to be selfish and hope it works out. That is what we are doing now.

    Failing a retransformation/regeneration, the future has many dark clouds. Roy, compared to all elite Cs, has a game that is very one dimensional, but he makes elite money. George Hill is not a true PG and his weaknesses get exposed, but he makes a lot of money for incomplete skills for his position. PG was prepaid for elite skills and he will be making elite money while we wait for the ROI. DWest has his clock running down and he makes a lot of money. I can't be objective about Lance so I will just leave it at, we don't have the money for him.

    Our bench, after high hopes, has turned into a wasteland with occasional oasis along the way.

    So, in the mid to long term, our hands are tied due to money and if we want to turn it upside down to fix it, our leverage dumping major contracts will be bad coming off a trainwreck. Think vultures circling.

    This is the legend's creation. He thought it would work, you thought it would work, I thought it would work. No sense wringing hands about it, we are still positioned to get it done and all we can do is stay positive and enjoy it as far as it goes.

    On a postive note, if the train continues for the cliff, we will have lots to discuss in the offseason.
    Last edited by seeker80; 03-31-2014 at 10:37 AM.

  24. #68
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker80 View Post
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    Failing a retransformation/regeneration, the future has many dark clouds. Roy, compared to all elite Cs, has a game that is very one dimensional, but he makes elite money. George Hill is not a true PG and his weaknesses get exposed, but he makes a lot of money for incomplete skills for his position. PG was prepaid for elite skills and he will be making elite money while we wait for the ROI. DWest has his clock running down and he makes a lot of money. I can't be objective about Lance so I will just leave it at, we don't have the money for him.
    As much as I like David West I have always said that contract is an albatross for the team. Larry Bird should have told him if he want to stay here and try to win a championship with this team, then you get 12,10,& 8 million per year. I'm not spaying 12 million year after year for a guy who is getting older and older. Stupid contract in my opinion. Leaves this franchise with no room going forward to bring in a guy who develop behind him.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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  26. #69
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    As much as I like David West I have always said that contract is an albatross for the team. Larry Bird should have told him if he want to stay here and try to win a championship with this team, then you get 12,10,& 8 million per year. I'm not spaying 12 million year after year for a guy who is getting older and older. Stupid contract in my opinion. Leaves this franchise with no room going forward to bring in a guy who develop behind him.
    Just wait until he's 35 in two years. I agree, I'm a huge fan of the guy, but that contract is really going to suck in two seasons.

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  28. #70
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic










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  30. #71
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by I Love P View Post
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    There is also no reason your "All-Star" 7-foot center is also 25 feet away from the basket making screens.
    You just want to camp him under the basket for a 3-second violation? You use your big men to set screens to get guys open for shots that open up the middle to allow your big men to get the ball in the post.

    The problem I have is with the guys missing those shots, not with Roy setting picks and screens.
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  32. #72
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    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    I must be in the minority about Lance. Personally, I believe he's the main reason why we win some of the games that we do. It scares me to even think how many games we would have lost if it wasn't for his aggressive attacks on the basket and play making skills, because we're SURE AS HELL NOT getting it from anyone else.

    To me, our problems falls entirely at the feet of Paul George and Roy Hibbert, because they are the ones who are trending downwards. Everyone has have moments of bad games, but they bounce back. Should we expect worse stats from George and Hibbert, since that's been the established trend dating back to January?

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  34. #73

    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    As much as I like David West I have always said that contract is an albatross for the team. Larry Bird should have told him if he want to stay here and try to win a championship with this team, then you get 12,10,& 8 million per year. I'm not spaying 12 million year after year for a guy who is getting older and older. Stupid contract in my opinion. Leaves this franchise with no room going forward to bring in a guy who develop behind him.



    If they wanna move on from West, they can always trade him for Greg Monroe since the Pistons are apparently down on him. You could also trade him to a cap team and just move Copeland into the starting PF position. For now though, Frank is the problem. Our bench needs a 10 man rotation..........



    Copeland
    Butler
    LaVoy (not Ian I can't shoot, dunk, catch the ball, or rebound Mahinmi)
    Turner
    Sloan



    Hopefully CJ gets healthy soon, but Lance and Evan can't be on the floor together. The only starter who should be on the floor with the bench in the playoffs when the rotations are down to 9, is PG. His style fits better next to Turner than Lance's style, which is all about playmaking.

  35. #74

    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    I've never been a huge supporter of Vogel and have mostly felt like he has been in over his head. IMHO, Vogel is the problem here. There is far, far too much offensive talent on this roster for these struggles to continue game after game. I don't see how he can survive the collapse we're watching and I don't think he should.

    The kickout for 3 has seemingly disappeared for this team. Its now run-of-the-mill to see Hill standing out behind the line when Paul or Roy get bogged down in the middle paint area, but they force something up hoping/expecting/praying for a foul instead of kicking the ball out to the open shooter.

    Vogel is the main problem, though. Too much talent here for these kind of struggles.


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  37. #75

    Default Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    To be fair I think West's contract won't be hard to trade in his final year. He offers the "intangibles" that a team making a championship run might want.

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