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Thread: I wish Vogel had some balls

  1. #26

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    In the playoffs Mike Miller had not played until Game 6 in Miami/Pacers, he came in and made 3 threes. Shooters don't necessarily need a rhythm, even Rasul Butler who plays sporadically has a higher percentage chance to hit a 3 so far.

    But Mike Miller was not making Copeland's salary I don't think. Also Copeland was one of our marquee free agent signings. Mike Miller was so broken down the last few season's he could barely walk. Copeland is not even close to that.

  2. #27

    Lightbulb Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by BenR1990 View Post
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    I think had we gone through this stretch of games in late December or even January, Vogel would try some different lineup options. With only a couple weeks left in the season, there only time we would see any major changes to our rotations would be due to an injury. It's just too late in the season for a guy like Vogel to make a chance like Lavoy Allen rotational minutes.

    I don't think lacking balls is the term I would use to describe Vogel. His unwillingness to change things up has to do with being set in a particular coaching philosophy.


    I think these changes are necessary to win games. And keep the #1 seed though.

  3. #28

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    But Mike Miller was not making Copeland's salary I don't think. Also Copeland was one of our marquee free agent signings. Mike Miller was so broken down the last few season's he could barely walk. Copeland is not even close to that.
    That just means Copeland is worse if he can't outdo a broken down Mike Miller.

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    I think these changes are necessary to win games. And keep the #1 seed though.
    Then take it up with Frank? I guess my point is don't get your hopes up. The rotations we're using now is we're going to use the remainder of the year unless someone gets hurt.

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    No one can argue about Vogel's ability to design a great defense, and get the most out of his players defensively, trust me if Lance goes somewhere else after this season he is going to look like an average at best defender. Paul wasn't considered a defensive stud out of college, and Hibbert wasn't anything special defensively prior to Vogel. In fact he was a better offensive player than defensive player.

    Vogel offensively leaves a lot to be desired. Just about everyone performs worse for him than they do for anyone else. We have the talent to have a top 5 offense, but we have a bottom 10 offense the past two seasons. The biggest part of that is Vogel has yet to show any real ability to design an effective offense. The other part is Paul is in over his head as a number one option. While he is smoother and more athletic than Granger has ever been, Paul isn't even on Granger's level of offensive ability prior to the injury. No one on this team is. That doesn't mean he isn't a number one option, just that you shouldn't treat him like Lebron, Durant, or Melo. At the same time every one of our starters is capable of averaging at least 16ppg. This means we really should be running a more offense by committee approach. This requires a well designed offense, and a willingness of the players to go to the hot hand instead of trying to get theirs. We have never had number one, but we used to have number two so we were able to overcome not having number one to an extent, especially with our used to be all-time great defense. Now we have neither.

    This is something that Vogel really needs to correct in the summer. Doing so will make everyone more efficient, and will really put this team over the top. If Vogel doesn't show improvement on this aspect next year, I do think you have to consider moving on next summer.

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  7. #31
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    No one can argue about Vogel's ability to design a great defense, and get the most out of his players defensively, trust me if Lance goes somewhere else after this season he is going to look like an average at best defender. Paul wasn't considered a defensive stud out of college, and Hibbert wasn't anything special defensively prior to Vogel. In fact he was a better offensive player than defensive player.

    Vogel offensively leaves a lot to be desired. Just about everyone performs worse for him than they do for anyone else. We have the talent to have a top 5 offense, but we have a bottom 10 offense the past two seasons. The biggest part of that is Vogel has yet to show any real ability to design an effective offense. The other part is Paul is in over his head as a number one option. While he is smoother and more athletic than Granger has ever been, Paul isn't even on Granger's level of offensive ability prior to the injury. No one on this team is. That doesn't mean he isn't a number one option, just that you shouldn't treat him like Lebron, Durant, or Melo. At the same time every one of our starters is capable of averaging at least 16ppg. This means we really should be running a more offense by committee approach. This requires a well designed offense, and a willingness of the players to go to the hot hand instead of trying to get theirs. We have never had number one, but we used to have number two so we were able to overcome not having number one to an extent, especially with our used to be all-time great defense. Now we have neither.

    This is something that Vogel really needs to correct in the summer. Doing so will make everyone more efficient, and will really put this team over the top. If Vogel doesn't show improvement on this aspect next year, I do think you have to consider moving on next summer.
    Great post is all I have to say.

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  9. #32
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    "People start to question Frank". Well, that didn't include me. This is the very first time I have said anything about Frank...and I don't even consider it criticism.

    The fact is, I am a Vogel supporter. I think he's a good coach and hope he keeps his job. I just don't rank him above Rick Carlisle and I doubt most people do. But even so, I don't think his job is at risk at all. I just think that if he has an expiration date, the beginning of the end has started. If he doesn't turn the team around and at least get to the ECF, the clock will start ticking.
    Ok, so instead of a top-3 coach he's a top-4 coach...
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  10. #33
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Ok, so instead of a top-3 coach he's a top-4 coach...
    Eleazer just said it all. I think the jury is out on where Frank really stands.

  11. #34

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    But Mike Miller was not making Copeland's salary I don't think. Also Copeland was one of our marquee free agent signings. Mike Miller was so broken down the last few season's he could barely walk. Copeland is not even close to that.
    Did you really consider Copeland a marquee FA signing? IMO, Copeland was picked up to ,at best, replace the minutes Hans was playing and save some money. A marquee FA would be someone that more than one team was interested in, wouldn't it? If the possibility of getting Scola had been on the board, Copeland would not have been signed here at all. The Pacers needed a 4th big and a backup 3 a lot more than we needed a stretch 4 with no defense. I like to watch Copeland play when we are in a run and gun offense, but for inside out, grinding offense, he does not fit.

  12. #35
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    Defensively, I've loved what Vogel has done. Now offensively? It's a major work in progress. The offense didn't really show any real life until B. Shaw implemented some of the triangle offense into our scheming, allowing West to operate in the high and Hibbert in the low post respectively. To me, it appears the offense has almost taken a step back from where it was at the end of last season.
    I feel our offense has taken a pretty big step back in terms of identity. We KNEW what we were running, and though we didn't always score a lot of points at least we had an idea of what we were running and when we were running it. Now we seem to almost make it up as we go offensively. I suppose in theory it could make us less predictable, but it makes us look less cohesive IMO.

    Two major keys to our offense that I feel we are missing from last year are Free Throws and points from offensive rebounds. Those were two ways we were able to manufacture points offensively that seem to be lacking from last year. Idk if that's on Vogel or on new personnel, but it's definitely a new trend this year.

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    I would argue that it takes more guts to weather the storm with the guys that you know provide the best upside for the team, even if big chunks of them are struggling at the same time. It takes no guts at all to pull guys in and out of the lineup. Sure, it may help short term, but with every lineup change you have at least a small adjustment period.

    Now you may disagree as to which players on the team form the best long term rotation for our team, but I don't think that has anything to do with Vogel having guts or not.
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Bird has said that players tune out the coach after three years.

    If he still believes that, then this will be Vogel's final season.

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    Bird has said that players tune out the coach after three years.

    If he still believes that, then this will be Vogel's final season.
    You may well be right.

    But, until the exorcism, Bird was possessed by O'Satan for part of a 4th season...

    Um, errr, I mean...Bird gave O'B an extension to the 4th season despite his contributions to the near collapse of the franchise.

    Bird likely gave consideration to O'B for player turnover during that time, though, and the fact that he only had players like Jarrett Jack, McRoberts, Dunleavy, etc. to work with who are all just lucky not to have been ousted from the NBA at this point, and new scrubs in Hibbert, George, etc. who had no future in the NBA and weren't worth his time to develop.

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    I just can't at these discussions of getting rid of Vogel....

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Bird needs to coach again.

  19. #41

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I would argue that it takes more guts to weather the storm with the guys that you know provide the best upside for the team, even if big chunks of them are struggling at the same time. It takes no guts at all to pull guys in and out of the lineup. Sure, it may help short term, but with every lineup change you have at least a small adjustment period.

    Now you may disagree as to which players on the team form the best long term rotation for our team, but I don't think that has anything to do with Vogel having guts or not.
    I quite agree with you. Sometimes you just got to dance with the one that brung you, spots and all!

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train View Post
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    Bird needs to coach again.
    And use Frank for his Harter of the new millenium, talk Carlisle into coming back as himself at a heavily discounted rate (let Cuban have McMillan), and hire Mike Brown as the coach-player intermediary.

    Make it so...

  21. #43

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I can't...

    This **** is like groundhogs day. The Pacers...as does every other team ever..go through stretches of poor play. And every year the crazy starts. Frank Vogel is probably a top 3 coach in the league, and I can guarantee you not one of the players has tuned him out. If Frank's time is shortened here, it'll be the dumbest move the Pacers ever made.

    And the same goes to Paul George. We have a budding young superstar. Arguably the best player in the league after Kevin Durant and Lebron James. Can we please let him go through some growing pains without throwing around "overrated" or "selfish."

    This team is made up of human beings. They are aware that they are able to turn it on and off, and they are probably only playing good enough to make sure they get the #1 seed in the East.

    We've got a damn good team. Enjoy them. Accept the bad with the good, because there is a heck of a lot more good. The Pacers are good enough to win a title. This team isn't Jim O'brien and Troy Murphy's Pacers.


    Bird built this team to win it ALL this year. The bad you referred to is what's going to keep this team from winning a CHAMPIONSHIP this year. This bad you seem to be downplaying isn't a light switch that can be turned off at a flip of the switch. IT IS A REAL PROBLEM that hasn't gone away, and people had better start realizing it is a PROBLEM instead of wishful thinking everything will change when the playoffs start. The starting of the playoffs isn't the cure for the problem/problems the Pacers are going thru. If this problem isn't corrected immediately, I could see this team, depending on who they play, get beat in the 1st round. If they squeak thru the 1st rd w/o fixing the problem, I don't see them making it out of the 2nd rd let alone winning the championship Bird has strived to win.

    The Pacers are only "good enough" to win it all if they get the PROBLEM fixed, and I see nothing that shows that fix is at hand.

    As far as PG goes, this team can't afford his growing pains if they expect to win it all this year. He needs to corrall his sloopy shoddy passing and understand he's NOT LeBron who can make the big plays down the stretch. He needs to understand a TEAM wins a CHAMPIONSHIP not PAULBALL! JMOAA

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  23. #44
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    Bird has said that players tune out the coach after three years.

    If he still believes that, then this will be Vogel's final season.

    Bird does know a few things about the NBA and he is probably correct. It certainly seems like it.

    While most of us here don't have access to the truth...if it really is true Frank's blood is on the player's hands. They can thank themselves the day Frank Vogel loses his job.

    Edit: BTW, I would never say that if I didn't think some of the players are to blame for the performance the last few months. Also, it's not that they are playing sub .500 ball. It's that they are very much underachieving and probably regressing...when they should actually be getting better. Yes, I am ticked because I don't think this is a basketball issue.

  24. #45
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Maybe he could put duct tape over PG's mouth to stop him whining about the officials?
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  25. #46
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    If were making "wish lists" for Coach Vogel put me down for a traditional point guard. If all we do is re-sign Lance it means another season of this offense which is on the cusp of making my eyes bleed. Very likely the most dysfunctional offense ever witnessed as a pacer fan.

    LAST in A/T ratio in the NBA previous season and this year 26th. Vogel is not going to figure out this offense anytime soon and by then DWEST will be collecting social security benefits. Find Vogel a traditional floor general type point guard to run the offense, move GHill to the SG or combo guard off the bench.

    Get back to a more traditional offensive formula for Vogel and lets go from there. We essentially run a SG-SG-SG-PF-C and not sure I believe Vogel has the experience to make it work.

    Would hate to see Vogel let go when all he may need is an offensive shift in his philosophy.

    * Turner prob is the truest point guard on this team but his defense would give Vogel/Burke nightmares.

  26. #47
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    If were making "wish lists" for Coach Vogel put me down for a traditional point guard. If all we do is re-sign Lance it means another season of this offense which is on the cusp of making my eyes bleed. Very likely the most dysfunctional offense ever witnessed as a pacer fan.

    LAST in A/T ratio in the NBA previous season and this year 26th. Vogel is not going to figure out this offense anytime soon and by then DWEST will be collecting social security benefits. Find Vogel a traditional floor general type point guard to run the offense, move GHill to the SG or combo guard off the bench.

    Get back to a more traditional offensive formula for Vogel and lets go from there. We essentially run a SG-SG-SG-PF-C and not sure I believe Vogel has the experience to make it work.

    Would hate to see Vogel let go when all he may need is an offensive shift in his philosophy.

    * Turner prob is the truest point guard on this team but his defense would give Vogel/Burke nightmares.
    I'd be willing to see turner replace lance in the starting lineup, as long as he makes it explicitly clear that its not Lance's fault. Hill can continue to guard the point but play offensively as a 2 guard. Keep the minutes distribution the same, just make sure turner spends most of his 20 minutes with the starters.

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  27. #48
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    I think the notion that Frank is too soft or soft at all is a myth. I don't buy that.

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  29. #49

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think the notion that Frank is too soft or soft at all is a myth. I don't buy that.
    Vogel reminds me of Mr. Nice Guy who just can't get upset or jump all over a player for their poor play. He seems to want to be the players best buddy, and can't reprimand players for their poor play. It's like if he does he'll upset them, and they won't like him anymore. I'd bet his wife is the disciplanarian in the home even when he's home, too much Mr. Nice Guy to do it.

  30. #50
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Vogel reminds me of Mr. Nice Guy who just can't get upset or jump all over a player for their poor play. He seems to want to be the players best buddy, and can't reprimand players for their poor play. It's like if he does he'll upset them, and they won't like him anymore. I'd bet his wife is the disciplanarian in the home even when he's home, too much Mr. Nice Guy to do it.
    How do you know this. What do you base this on. Please don't say you base it on what he says to the media either in content or tone.

    I've heard second and third hand that he is a lot tougher than most would believe in practice, in film sessions, one-on-one. Not suggesting he is Bob Knight or Larry Brown and I would say isn't Mr. Softy either.

    Is Rick carlisle Mr. Nice Guy. he never was critical of players in the media

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