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Thread: I wish Vogel had some balls

  1. #1

    Default I wish Vogel had some balls

    For a guy who has NY area roots, he seems to lack the boldness and creativity you'd expect from a New Yorker in his field of coaching. Even when he deviates from his usual rotations and plays Copeland or Butler, you can literally see him sitting on the bench biting his nails furiously like a cartoon character. It's as if he doesn't trust himself or his players. It's unbelievable. I think starting Turner at PG would be a good idea simply because he'd put offensive pressure on the opposing teams PG. Not to mention, he's a bigger offensive threat than Hill, and his passing ability might just get West and Hibbert the ball more. Evan's ability to get into the lane and dish, will result in lots of points for Hibbert and West.

    As for the bench, please play LaVoy Allen. The guy had 1 game where he reached 13pts, 8rbnds, and 2 blks. Ian has played so many games for us and can't even reach those sorts of numbers in 5 straight games. Playing Copeland with Scola worked in the Bulls win, why did Vogel go away from that again? Also, how about letting Hill be back up PG for the rest of the season, until CJ gets back. Then Hill moves to back up 2 so he can be more offensive minded. The bench could be for now....



    Scola
    Copeland
    LaVoy
    S. Hill or Butler
    G. Hill



    When CJ gets back.....

    Scola
    Copeland
    LaVoy
    G. Hill
    CJ Watson



    But this thread is more something for us to chew on in this off day. Vogel probably won't even make any changes in the next game. He has no courage and fears deviation. I've never seen a coach so afraid of change with his own players. It's unreal. Also on the subject of Copeland, he's a shooter. He will never develop a rythm until he gets consistent minutes. This yanking him in 5 minutes and then playing him 16 minutes some games is killing his groove. Look what happened last night, Scola was the hot man in the first half. But only played 2 minutes in the 2nd half. Is Vogel on drugs or something? I've seen drunks with more consistency than this guy.
    Last edited by Grimp; 03-29-2014 at 04:33 PM.

  2. #2
    Member ilive4sports's Avatar
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Yep, lets put another ball dominant wing in the starting line up...

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  4. #3

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    As for the bench, please play LaVoy Allen. The guy had 1 game where he reached 13pts, 8rbnds, and 2 blks. Ian has played so many games for us and can't even reach those sorts of numbers in 5 straight games. Playing Copeland with Scola worked in the Bulls win, why did Vogel go away from that again? Also, how about letting Hill be back up PG for the rest of the season, until CJ gets back. Then Hill moves to back up 2 so he can be more offensive minded. The bench could be for now....

    In the playoffs Mike Miller had not played until Game 6 in Miami/Pacers, he came in and made 3 threes. Shooters don't necessarily need a rhythm, even Rasul Butler who plays sporadically has a higher percentage chance to hit a 3 so far.

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    Member BenR1990's Avatar
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    I think had we gone through this stretch of games in late December or even January, Vogel would try some different lineup options. With only a couple weeks left in the season, there only time we would see any major changes to our rotations would be due to an injury. It's just too late in the season for a guy like Vogel to make a chance like Lavoy Allen rotational minutes.

    I don't think lacking balls is the term I would use to describe Vogel. His unwillingness to change things up has to do with being set in a particular coaching philosophy.

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    I don't want to see Vogel turn into a screaming madman, but I would.......just once........like to see him slam the clipboard to the floor and scream at his players to move their damn butts and pass the god damn ball!

  7. #6
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    I think Vogel's time in Indiana may be shortened because the players may be tuning him out. The Pacers should interview JOb just to scare the poop out of them.

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  9. #7

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    I can't...

    This **** is like groundhogs day. The Pacers...as does every other team ever..go through stretches of poor play. And every year the crazy starts. Frank Vogel is probably a top 3 coach in the league, and I can guarantee you not one of the players has tuned him out. If Frank's time is shortened here, it'll be the dumbest move the Pacers ever made.

    And the same goes to Paul George. We have a budding young superstar. Arguably the best player in the league after Kevin Durant and Lebron James. Can we please let him go through some growing pains without throwing around "overrated" or "selfish."

    This team is made up of human beings. They are aware that they are able to turn it on and off, and they are probably only playing good enough to make sure they get the #1 seed in the East.

    We've got a damn good team. Enjoy them. Accept the bad with the good, because there is a heck of a lot more good. The Pacers are good enough to win a title. This team isn't Jim O'brien and Troy Murphy's Pacers.

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Is there another team in the NBA that has worse ball movement than the Pacers? Hard to come up with one. I see Women's teams with much better ball movement. That's why I think the "tired" excuse is getting old. Spurs aren't tired are they? And they are old.
    Last edited by presto123; 03-29-2014 at 07:33 PM.

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I can't...

    This **** is like groundhogs day. The Pacers...as does every other team ever..go through stretches of poor play. And every year the crazy starts. Frank Vogel is probably a top 3 coach in the league, and I can guarantee you not one of the players has tuned him out. If Frank's time is shortened here, it'll be the dumbest move the Pacers ever made.

    And the same goes to Paul George. We have a budding young superstar. Arguably the best player in the league after Kevin Durant and Lebron James. Can we please let him go through some growing pains without throwing around "overrated" or "selfish."

    This team is made up of human beings. They are aware that they are able to turn it on and off, and they are probably only playing good enough to make sure they get the #1 seed in the East.

    We've got a damn good team. Enjoy them. Accept the bad with the good, because there is a heck of a lot more good. The Pacers are good enough to win a title. This team isn't Jim O'brien and Troy Murphy's Pacers.
    I agree with some of what you're saying, but the third best player in the league as you say doesn't shoot like 38% or something. PG has a ways to go and I hope he doesn't let the work ethic go out the window with all the attention he's gotten this year.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I can't...

    This **** is like groundhogs day. The Pacers...as does every other team ever..go through stretches of poor play. And every year the crazy starts. Frank Vogel is probably a top 3 coach in the league, and I can guarantee you not one of the players has tuned him out. If Frank's time is shortened here, it'll be the dumbest move the Pacers ever made.

    And the same goes to Paul George. We have a budding young superstar. Arguably the best player in the league after Kevin Durant and Lebron James. Can we please let him go through some growing pains without throwing around "overrated" or "selfish."

    This team is made up of human beings. They are aware that they are able to turn it on and off, and they are probably only playing good enough to make sure they get the #1 seed in the East.

    We've got a damn good team. Enjoy them. Accept the bad with the good, because there is a heck of a lot more good. The Pacers are good enough to win a title. This team isn't Jim O'brien and Troy Murphy's Pacers.
    We could do far worse (and have done so), but I don't think there is any proof that Vogel is a top 3 coach in the NBA. Carlisle, Thibodeau and Popovich beg to differ. Frank has a very good team but I have yet to see brilliant decision making on his part beyond his positive attitude that has gotten this team pretty far. But at some point, to stick with a team like Popovich, he's going to need to show more than that.

    The problem at this point is that his style has fully run its course with this team. He did an admirable job allowing the players to run their locker room. That's all well and good and led to a tight knit group. But there is more to coaching than stroking and making people happy. Again, he's a good coach and definitely in the top half. Also, I don't want to see him get cut. But even Rick Carlisle lost his job after 4 years and Rick is simply a better coach...hands down.

  16. #11

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    We could do far worse (and have done so), but I don't think there is any proof that Vogel is a top 3 coach in the NBA. Carlisle, Thibodeau and Popovich beg to differ. Frank has a very good team but I have yet to see brilliant decision making on his part beyond his positive attitude that has gotten this team pretty far. But at some point, to stick with a team like Popovich, he's going to need to show more than that.

    The problem at this point is that his style has fully run its course with this team. He did an admirable job allowing the players to run their locker room. That's all well and good and led to a tight knit group. But there is more to coaching than stroking and making people happy. Again, he's a good coach and definitely in the top half. Also, I don't want to see him get cut. But even Rick Carlisle lost his job after 4 years and Rick is simply a better coach...hands down.
    Every year.
    Every single year.
    The Pacers have gone through a poor stretch of games..actually..around this time. And people start to question Frank.

    What inevitably happens, is that by the playoffs, the team is playing at it's peak, and every year we've gone one step further in the playoffs.

    And I'll take Frank over everyone but Pop and Thibodeau. I'll repeat..if the Pacers let him go, it'll be the dumbest decision they've ever made. Anyone whose watching knows the guy has done a lot more than simply "let the team run the lockerroom."

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Every year.
    Every single year.
    The Pacers have gone through a poor stretch of games..actually..around this time. And people start to question Frank.

    What inevitably happens, is that by the playoffs, the team is playing at it's peak, and every year we've gone one step further in the playoffs.

    And I'll take Frank over everyone but Pop and Thibodeau. I'll repeat..if the Pacers let him go, it'll be the dumbest decision they've ever made. Anyone whose watching knows the guy has done a lot more than simply "let the team run the lockerroom."
    "People start to question Frank". Well, that didn't include me. This is the very first time I have said anything about Frank...and I don't even consider it criticism.

    The fact is, I am a Vogel supporter. I think he's a good coach and hope he keeps his job. I just don't rank him above Rick Carlisle and I doubt most people do. But even so, I don't think his job is at risk at all. I just think that if he has an expiration date, the beginning of the end has started. If he doesn't turn the team around and at least get to the ECF, the clock will start ticking.

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  20. #13

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    This may be the worst post I've ever read. Frank Vogel's balls or lack of balls has little to do with his players lack of lack of mental strength, imo. It is late in the season to be changing the rotation of our bench players, unless there is an injury that makes it necessary. L. Allen may well have to be the 3rd backup at both PF and Center if Bynum does not come back and either West or Luis have injuries or foul problems, but to insert him in Ian's spot at this point in the season is more of a risk to a fragile team than it probably be more trouble than it's worth. Maybe Bird should just fire Vogel now and find a better coach. That's what we did with Carlisle when the inmates took over the asylum before. Rick almost starved to death before he got another job iirc.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Firing Rick Carlisle was counterproductive They should have simply cut the problem players instead of bringing in Hitler to deal with them.

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  24. #15

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Will you please give it a rest with your fantasy of a second unit consisting of Lavoy Allen and Copeland?

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    Formerly PacerFanInAZ Cactus Jax's Avatar
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    I've met Frank Vogel, cool guy to just talk about basketball with. I didn't take a full test, but I'm pretty sure Frank has some balls.
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

    ----------------- Reggie Miller

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    When I think "offensive creativity," I think New York basketball coaches. Just look at Larry brown...

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Coach no balls?

    Did he throw them all at the officials like Slick Leonard did once?

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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by ReginaldWayne View Post
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    Will you please give it a rest with your fantasy of a second unit consisting of Lavoy Allen and Copeland?
    This made me
    LOL out loud.
    Did someone really say this?

  33. #20
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Defensively, I've loved what Vogel has done. Now offensively? It's a major work in progress. The offense didn't really show any real life until B. Shaw implemented some of the triangle offense into our scheming, allowing West to operate in the high and Hibbert in the low post respectively. To me, it appears the offense has almost taken a step back from where it was at the end of last season.

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  35. #21
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I can't...

    This **** is like groundhogs day. The Pacers...as does every other team ever..go through stretches of poor play. And every year the crazy starts. Frank Vogel is probably a top 3 coach in the league, and I can guarantee you not one of the players has tuned him out. If Frank's time is shortened here, it'll be the dumbest move the Pacers ever made.

    And the same goes to Paul George. We have a budding young superstar. Arguably the best player in the league after Kevin Durant and Lebron James. Can we please let him go through some growing pains without throwing around "overrated" or "selfish."

    This team is made up of human beings. They are aware that they are able to turn it on and off, and they are probably only playing good enough to make sure they get the #1 seed in the East.

    We've got a damn good team. Enjoy them. Accept the bad with the good, because there is a heck of a lot more good. The Pacers are good enough to win a title. This team isn't Jim O'brien and Troy Murphy's Pacers.
    Agree and disagree. Something is wrong and it may very well be with Vogel's offensive schemes or what he's willing to try with SOME rotations (he does dabble), but good lord would it be an epic failure to bail on him. If you aren't bringing in Pop, Phil, Carlisle or MAYBE Tibs then what is the point? And Pop and Phil would be very limited careers due to age.

    Vogel is a great combo of youth and quality with plenty of room to grow.


    I've often tried to make the point about PATIENCE with the Bad Boys Pistons, I've posted the numbers many times that show the struggles of Chuck Daly and Isiah, Laimbeer, Vinnie, etc early on. They kept those 3 together and kept grinding.

    83-84 Lost 1st round - Isiah, Laimbeer, Microwave (Long, Tripucka)
    84-85 Lost 2nd round - same
    85-86 Lost 1st round - add Dumars and Mahorn

    So that might be the point where Indy add Hill and West except for Detroit they took a step backward, plus West and Hill were vets

    86-87 Lost ECF - add Rodman, Salley, Dantley
    87-88 Lost Finals
    88-89 Won Finals - trade Dantley for Aguirre
    89-90 Repeat title

    The key was sticking with Chuck Daly and the core as it built. They didn't punt on Isiah, Bill or Vinnie when they took a step back to a round 1 loss in year 3 of the run. It took Dumars and Mahorn 3 seasons of coming up short of a title before the win in year 4.

    This could be how it goes with Vogel. You could lose in round 2 or the ECF this year as a setback and then adjust slightly and push on into a Finals loss before finally winning a title 2 years from now. That would be a huge success even if it wouldn't feel like it right now.


    Let Vogel grow like Daly got to grow.

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  37. #22

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Arguably the best player in the league after Kevin Durant and Lebron James.
    I want to meet the person arguing this...

  38. #23
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
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    I want to meet the person arguing this...
    Yeah, Chris Paul and Anthony Davis would beg to differ.

  39. #24

    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Agree and disagree. Something is wrong and it may very well be with Vogel's offensive schemes or what he's willing to try with SOME rotations (he does dabble), but good lord would it be an epic failure to bail on him. If you aren't bringing in Pop, Phil, Carlisle or MAYBE Tibs then what is the point? And Pop and Phil would be very limited careers due to age.


    .
    But something looks "very wrong" every year.

    Yes, this has never been a good offensive team. But our players aren't really the type of players to put in a Spurs type of motion offense. They aren't the best passers (Lance is talented, but still too concerned about being fancy) or ball handlers really. They don't screen very well..etc. So it's always going to be ugly. I think that maybe giving Hill a few more touches, letting him make more decisions, would help..but perhaps giving PG and Lance the reigns now, helps significantly in the future.

    Vogel's first year coaching, we hit a rough patch. Lance got sent permanently to the bench. There were reports about people not listening in practice, and Wells said that there was no way The Pacers would hire Frank. But then the Chicago Bulls series happened, and the Pacers fought tooth and nail with them. Frank had the guys playing at their best and together.

    And every season since then, we've had a similar stretch of games. Chemistry looks "off." The offense looks even uglier than what it normally does, we lose games we shouldn't. And every year people in PD get stressed. And every year, the Pacers get themselves together and exceed expectations in the playoffs.

    So here we are..Pacers are going through their rough stretch. The team whipping boy has been named (PG..and to some extent Lance). But interestingly..they just beat the Heat...a must win.

    I don't like watching them play poorly. And I don't like watching these rough stretches any more than anyone else does. But ALL teams go through them. People dismiss it when The Heat do it, because "they've already proven themselves." The important thing is that the coach has the team peaking at the right time, and every year since he's coached here, Frank has had the team peaking during the playoffs.

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  41. #25
    Lifelong Pacer Fan. PGisthefuture's Avatar
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    Default Re: I wish Vogel had some balls

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
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    I want to meet the person arguing this...
    There's a lot of people on other forums that feel this way.

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