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Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

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  • Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

    To me it’s just painfully apparent that the Pacers are done with the regular season. They checked out somewhere before the all-star break and other than for a few big moments have been back since.

    The Miami game was proof enough for me that when they absolutely had to they could muster up enough game to beat a good team and then the very next game not give enough effort to even be competitive with a team that they should wipe the floor with. That is no disrespect intended to the Wizards as they have been coming strong in the new year, but at the end of the day for the first 2/3 of the season we were not only the best in the east we were the best team in the NBA.

    We just officially have to pray that we can beat the Cavs on Sunday because I can assure you that the Heat will trounce the Bucks and then we will only be down to a one game lead with us having to face the Spurs and the Thunder at home. I don’t like our chances there.

    All we can do is hope that the sunshiner’s are correct and that in the post season with no back to backs or any other excuses that the team can flip a switch and this season won’t go down in flames.

    There is not a lot of reasons to really dwell on this game and to be blunt that is probably going to be true till the playoffs. Whatever anybody says is wrong with the team they are probably right.

    Our offense was atrocious as normal but if you want to say that the defense wasn’t great either than I’m not going to argue. Considering in the 2nd quarter we scored a whole whopping 16 points and in the 3rd quarter allowed them to score 30 it’s hard to say which is worse.

    I’ll say it though till I’m blue in the face, we have no one on a night in and night out basis that can stick an open jump shot from anywhere. I just sit in amazement at how teams just run pick and rolls and the guard rises up and sticks a 15’ jumper off of a curl while if we did the same exact thing it would clang so hard off of the rim that the shockwaves would be measurable.

    Now the one thing that was a little confusing about this game to me was Frank’s use of Scola.

    Scola did a pretty good job of scoring the first half in fact he got 10 point, then Frank plays him 2 min. the rest of the game? Not sure what is up there.

    But David West’s inability to hit anything inside the painted area anymore is beyond concerning for me. Hell I feel better if he does fade back for a three than I do with him putting up a layup.

    As to Paul you can pretty much tell what you are going to get from Paul by the way he goes to the basket. Against big name teams he will take it hard and try and stuff it home, thus he gave us the Miami game. Against lesser opponents we get “to cool to dunk” Paul who provides us with a variety of finger rolls and scoop shots none of which usually find their mark.

    Also there needs to be no finger pointing to any one player and there sure as hell should not be any player calling out any other player. This is a group effort, it is not a Lance Stephenson issue. Sure he missed his first 9 shots and that is a huge problem, but he is not the first player this season to do it and ultimately he hit 3 of his next 4.

    I see Roy in the post game is already back to whining about the offense and while he can certainly complain that he didn’t get enough shots he better not say that Paul George or David West has earned carte blanche. They were both atrocious.

    Also Roy if you would hold your damn position you might be able to get the ball passed to you in a decent fashion.

    Either way though this game is just a repeat of all the other games we’ve seen. Teams just pack the paint and jam up the passing lanes daring anyone on our team to hit an outside shot. Till we do it that is the modus operandi every team will use in defending us.

    I’m willing to listen to alternative views but for now I’m just going to go with the fact that they are bored with the regular season and are just cruising till the playoffs. My opinion is that this will burn them but stranger things have happened.

    I’m just going to do a few grades.

    Paul George: D

    Yes he played decent defense and yes he had 3 steals but he also negated that with his 5 turnovers. 27% from the field doesn’t help either. Is not going to ever break through that upper level until he understands you have to play as hard vs. the middle and lower teams as you do vs. the Heat and the upper tier teams.

    David West: d

    It felt worse than a C to me but that’s what I’ll go with. BTW in everybody talking about Quinn Buckner one of the reasons I can’t stand him is because according to him West does no wrong, well let me assure you he does. He was out of position several times tonight on defense and again I am just sick to death of this guy missing layups. His lack of mobility also distresses me at times. Did attempt to rebound but overall I just did not like his game.

    Roy Hibbert: d

    Why do we only talk about good Lance and bad Lance? There certainly is good Roy & bad Roy. We got a dose of bad Roy tonight. Yes he blocked some shots and did a decent job of protecting the rim, but that was it. That is all he gave you tonight. He could not guard Gortat (when he dunked that ball on Roy & got the and 1 I had to slap my fist in my hand like Dwight Howard for the Polish Hammer) and God know he could not stay in position to get a rebound if his soul depended on it. Also please don’t give him the excuse that Lance was stealing his boards, he had several opportunities to grab boards and he stood there flat footed like a cow. He wasn’t boxing out anyone, he just was immobile and never went to get the board and waited for it to come to him which it never did.

    Lance Stephenson: d

    Do not shoot 5 three point shots Lance. There is a reason they were leaving you open to try and hit that. Also not sure that he made Beal suffer on the offensive end the way he should have but he did rebound. However going 0-9 to start the game was brutal beyond words.

    George Hill: C

    I realize when Paul George is getting up 22 shots that shots are at a premium. But again to me it is vitally important when George is playing against one of the uber guards of the NBA (I consider Wall one of them) that he make them work on the defensive end and not just by free lancing the passing lanes. He hit 50% of his shots, we really need to work on a way to get him more involved in the offense when the wings are not on.

    I just don’t care enough tonight to talk about the bench.

    BTW, is Watson going to be sporting a prosthetic leg when he returns? My God this is taking forever.

    When 4 of your 5 starters shoot 30% from the field for a game you are not going to beat many (any) NBA teams.

    Considering we played the Wizards I feel this is the most fitting music for this team tonight.

    Last edited by Peck; 03-29-2014, 12:47 AM.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

    Thanks for taking the time Peck. Your description of having given up on the regular season was somehow comforting compared to the 'what the hell did i just witness' feeling that I was left with after watching that.
    ! Free Rick Sanchez !

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

      I disagree with the notion that they've given up on the regular season. Everyone on here wants to use the q word after every loss. It's asinine. You can't quit and then unquit and then quit and then unquit again etc... No one said this looked like a team that had given up after the Miami game. This is Occham's Razor in it's purest form. The explanation is obvious. We're a different team at home and away. You said we've only had a few good moments since the all star break, but that's simply untrue. We've continued to be absolutely dominant at home. We've only played like garbage on the road. Which is the way this team had been all year. We just didn't have a lot of tough road games early. Hell, I pointed out in another thread that we've only had a few good road wins all year. They haven't quit, they haven't forgotten how to play, they just aren't a good road team. The only question to discuss is why do they struggle so much on the road. Not enough experience? Immaturity? Coaching?...

      I wanna add this quote that I posted last week, just to underscore my point.

      Originally posted by LongTimePacerFan View Post
      Can't wait to hear everyone proclaim that our season is about to turn around when we beat Miami on Wednesday. Only to have everyone immediately go back into panic mode when we lose in Washington. I said it after we beat the Bulls at home and everyone jumped down my throat, but I'll say it again. This team is mediocre on the road, and awesome at home. That isn't going to change. We're still making it to the ECF. Whether we have a chance to go to the finals depends on us holding on to that one seed.
      Last edited by LongTimePacerFan; 03-29-2014, 01:48 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

        I hope the "bored" theory is right. Part of me wonders if this team just isn't too obsessed with beating Miami, and if that's the case we could get beat long before we get to play them. I wish we could move the ball like the Spurs do, I wouldn't mind the turnovers so much if we were effective when we didn't turn it over. It just seems like nothing ever comes easy at the offensive end, I feel lucky every time we score.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

          This isn't how teams that are headed for a championship play...even in the regular season. There are really 2 problems. First, we may not get home court the way this team is playing. That will come back to bite hard in a league where superstars win rings and going through Lebron James is extremely difficult. Second, we are likely to meet a "for real" or very hot team in the playoffs before Miami. We all got to see that when the mighty Pacers lost to a rag tag Boston Celtics team...I think the last time this team had a strong regular season.

          It's really a shame, but immaturity may be this team's undoing. Combine that with the fact DWest isn't getting any younger and, if true, that is pretty much criminal. If you doubt it's maturity you might check out Paul George's selfie or Lance Stephenson's "Ron Artest" tirade from Wednesday night. Honestly, I have no reason to think this is going to turn out well.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

            Originally posted by LongTimePacerFan View Post
            I disagree with the notion that they've given up on the regular season. Everyone on here wants to use the q word after every loss. It's asinine. You can't quit and then unquit and then quit and then unquit again etc... No one said this looked like a team that had given up after the Miami game. This is Occham's Razor in it's purest form. The explanation is obvious. We're a different team at home and away. You said we've only had a few good moments since the all star break, but that's simply untrue. We've continued to be absolutely dominant at home. We've only played like garbage on the road. Which is the way this team had been all year. We just didn't have a lot of tough road games early. Hell, I pointed out in another thread that we've only had a few good road wins all year. They haven't quit, they haven't forgotten how to play, they just aren't a good road team. The only question to discuss is why do they struggle so much on the road. Not enough experience? Immaturity? Coaching?...

            I wanna add this quote that I posted last week, just to underscore my point.
            you can't quit and then unquit?
            oh yes you can.... i have seen it and done it myself multiple times in various ways and on various levels. i remember playing some pickup ball with some friends and the friend i was playing with was giving a half-assed performance that night on defense and we were getting beat decisively because he wasn't playing much defense. i gave him a mini bob knight pep talk because we agreed beforehand to play in the 2 on 2 matchup for 10 bucks to the winning team and told him that if he didn't start applying himself on defense that he would be paying for both of us if we lost. guess what? he unquit.
            we won the game because of his effort on defense too.
            i agree with peck that the team has given up (at least collectively for the most part) on the regular season.
            hell, i have seen it multiple times at the nba level too. mostly from pf and c types. coleman, olowokandi, dampier and such. they coasted through seasons until a contract year came up and then it was time to give a spit again.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

              I think there are a couple of things going on and if they can't flip a switch and bring it in the playoffs then this will be Vogel's last year. I could be wrong because there are a lot of positives but I think Bird is going to see how the team has lost focus over the course of the long NBA season as well as how the team hasn't adjusted (effectively) to the defense teams use against us, and think the easiest fix for all of that is to replace the coach.

              I don't think a deadeye shooter is the answer because I think with a better offense, and better shots, our own players would suddenly 'improve'... and without it that hired gun deadeye shooter we'd bring in would have us scratching our heads and asking what happened to his shot. A deadeye shooter AND an improved offense? Now that would be good!



              Some of the selfish play could be argued to be due to our offense just not being thorough enough or flexible enough to deal with adversity. It doesn't need to be complicated but it does need to find a way to be more efficient and gets defenses off balance. When the early offense isn't there we seem to too often go into hero mode if not panic mode. So the selfish play we see could just be a symptom of the offensive system being... well... offensive. And if it's not and it's more a matter of players not sticking with the offense then it's still going to reflect back on the coach.

              I don't know... Would Bird go half way and dictate Frank put an offensive guru of Bird's choosing on the bench beside him?
              Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

              ------

              "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

              -John Wooden

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

                Try and put it on Frank all you want, but most of our players take bad shots and make bad decisions on a routine basis. Low basketball IQ is a real problem here. Especially when nobody can seem to hit an open jumper, much less a contested jumper.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

                  Originally posted by Bball View Post
                  I don't know... Would Bird go half way and dictate Frank put an offensive guru of Bird's choosing on the bench beside him?
                  I hope so, I think no matter what happens this year this probably needs to happen.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

                    The Team did so poorly that I'm not even going to bother commenting beyond this:

                    I'd like to believe what Peck is saying and that this Team just needs to move beyond this game and loss. The problem is that this has been said, time and time again ( over the last 2 months ) after losing unexpectedly to a Team that they should beat. Like all of you...I'm tired of the excuses.....they sucked and don't deserve to be considered the best Team in the East. I could care less about their record.....until they can prove otherwise, they aren't playing like a #1 or #2 seed.
                    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

                      Originally posted by CableKC View Post
                      The Team did so poorly that I'm not even going to bother commenting beyond this:

                      I'd like to believe what Peck is saying and that this Team just needs to move beyond this game and loss. The problem is that this has been said, time and time again ( over the last 2 months ) after losing unexpectedly to a Team that they should beat. Like all of you...I'm tired of the excuses.....they sucked and don't deserve to be considered the best Team in the East. I could care less about their record.....until they can prove otherwise, they aren't playing like a #1 or #2 seed.

                      And I get questioned for being unrealistic when I say they probably won't reach the ECF this year? These "flip a switch" people are in for a rude awakening come playoff time I think.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

                        I think it's safe to say that they will be up and down throughout the rest of these regular season games. I'm still hoping for them to "turn it on" come playoff time.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

                          Originally posted by presto123 View Post
                          Try and put it on Frank all you want, but most of our players take bad shots and make bad decisions on a routine basis. Low basketball IQ is a real problem here. Especially when nobody can seem to hit an open jumper, much less a contested jumper.
                          But at a certain point, doesn't that reflect on coaching? Especially when it's multiple players?
                          Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                          ------

                          "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                          -John Wooden

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

                            If I never see Paul put his hand up and scowl at the officials after a "missed call" again it will still be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too soon.

                            As if the recent play wasn't enough, the b*tching and complaining after every shot is really starting to sour my enjoyment of this team. At one point last night while running back on defense Paul thought it prudent take his eye off of the ball handler and his man to glare at the official and smack his elbow repeatedly. I can't recall any Pacer team that spent so much time whining to the officials than this one has begun to do. Its no wonder Paul doesn't get half the calls he complains about. The word is out in the referee circles that Paul is a whiner and the last thing an official wants to do is reward a bemoaning baby.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Sorcerer's Apprentices

                              Like i said in Memphis topic - we are EASY to defend- Hill West pnp at top/ George Iso/ + that set with few screens for PG (Hibbet screening is horrible)
                              Our offense is stagnant
                              How many open looks we got yesterday?? How many Wizzards had??
                              Great ofensive player like Evan - 7 ppg as Pacer last 5 games 5 ppg - 0 yesterday - Vogel has no clue how to use him.
                              I have to get up at 2 am to watch the game .. and i have ****.d up next day ....Its really depressing ... but GO PACERS!!!!

                              (sorry for my english )

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