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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Zach Lowe ‏@ZachLowe_NBA 1m

    Since 2/1 (semi-arbitrary, I know), Indiana has the 3rd-worst offense in the league -- ahead of PHI and (barely) ORL. So, yeah. Ugly.

    Pacers offense is a joke, my team i amateur basketball league has better offensive schemes than Pacers

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by BQQ View Post
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    Pacers offense is a joke, my team i amateur basketball league has better offensive schemes than Pacers
    Not the schemes. you can have the best schemes ever, but if the players don't play together the schemes mean nothing

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Not the schemes. you can have the best schemes ever, but if the players don't play together the schemes mean nothing
    Our schemes are pretty poor though. Such little off the ball movement.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    I wish I had time to do a complete video breakdown, because there's something I've noticed.

    Passes are being made for the sake of passing, not to make the receiver successful.

    I'm going to take an example that some might not like, because of his ability to score, but in particular Lance's no-look behind-the-back pass to the guy behind him, who has no idea if the ball is going left, right, or low, requires the receiver to have to get the ball, re-set for a shot, and - oh, there's the defender, wait a second...

    Lance isn't the only one - we see it from Hill from time to time - but the fancy pass with no regard for where the ball will end up is a huge part of why we can't shoot in rhythm.

    Add to that the idea that we have guys who are not confident enough to shoot when they get the ball open for fear of missing. I like the idea of the extra pass, but passing to a guy who has a worse shot - or, just as bad, hesitating on a wide open shot to SEE if there is someone else who needs the ball - is not successful. It's like trying to share but having no idea what sharing really is - like the two year old told to share who throws a tantrum because his playmate won't take the truck he's trying to force on him.

    None of this is a skill problem, except perhaps Roy constantly forgetting to just jam the ball down. It's timing, it's confidence, and it's real cooperation. These CAN be fixed. The question is, will they?

    Whether the fault is Frank's for the offensive scheme, at this point it is the greatest test of his ability to get a team focused and working together.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quite a surprise that you chose Blind Melon's No Rain Peck. I was singing that song on my way to work this morning and back to home because I was feeling the blues. Back to topic, I think losing Danny may have affected team chemistry pretty badly. We were having problems before he was traded but those times the team was going through normal slumps. Dog days is what they called it. I thought Danny getting traded escalated whatever problems they were having. It's like they lost that leader, that one person who they all respect collectively in this team which is an effect probably of Danny being the only long tenured Pacer back then. Now they lost all sorts of direction because that one guy that holds them together is gone.

    I'm a big Danny Granger supporter as well and I felt really bad that Larry has to trade him for Evan Turner and Lavoy Allen. Talent-wise it was a good trade but those two can not in anyway duplicate the intangibles that Danny contributes to this team. LB could have waited because it was only a matter of time before Danny got back to nearly his old self.

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  9. #31

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Our schemes are pretty poor though. Such little off the ball movement.
    But, is that by design of their 'scheme' or a lack of involvement by the players ??

    Kind of like the chicken & the egg.

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  11. #32
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I just think discussing how we don't have enough shooting or discussing the X's and O's is a waste of time if you want to correctly diagnosis what ia ailing the Pacers. It has nothing to do with rotations, or who is healthy, sick or tired. That is sort of like suggesting a marriage failed because the husband had the flu for a week. What?

    No, there are serious chemistry issues here. I fear we need group therapy more than we need to practice our offensive execution.
    Oh, I have no doubt that the chemistry issues you are alluding to are the primary problem, but like Sollozzo mentioned those issues came from somewhere and most likely from what has been happenning on the floor. The chemistry is the most important, but those secondary things which I mentioned in the postgame thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    secondary
    PG: less of a triggerfinger and hero modus operandi, more carefull with the ball and less *****ing to the officials
    Lance: trying to stay atleast somewhat in the offense, while becoming competent on D again
    Roy: making his shots and regaining the confidence in himself
    Luis: getting a bit of rest
    Hill: to the contrary of Paul beying more assertive and aggressive on both offensive and defensive (he was pretty decent last night btw), Even trying to play within the offense, take care of the ball better and take some honest lessons on basic defensive principles from some of his teammates
    Vogel: beying a little more flexible with his rotations, holding players more accountable and draw up atleast two alternative plays to end quarters.
    David: help Vogel in getting the team back into the right composure and taking the lead
    Help build the trust between players that has obviously been lost as the squad looks anything but cohesive. Put differently: those secondary things are what helps to solve those chemistry issues, but they are by no means the major things that has to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    primary
    Team: share the ball more, work FOR and WITH each other if you want to accomplish something major in the postseason, get back to the team identity that we had and have an us against the world attitude again.
    And bring back that group/corpsspirit that we had since David came onboard and has gradually left us in january and february.

    I do believe we can work this way around, but it's not going to be easy and Vogel (and David) have to play starring roles in it IMHO.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post
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    He gives up just as much on the defensive end. Wouldnt matter if he played 30 minutes.
    I disagree. His defense has been quite good in his last few outtings.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    But, is that by design of their 'scheme' or a lack of involvement by the players ??

    Kind of like the chicken & the egg.
    No heart. No motivation. No fire. Zilch! Those explain the half-*** passing efforts, defensive lapses and so on. I've been noticing that for a number of games already. Hell, I'm not blind.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    But, is that by design of their 'scheme' or a lack of involvement by the players ??

    Kind of like the chicken & the egg.
    scheme - we are easy to defend - very predictable + Turner Scola Copeland good offensive palyers but in our system they look like sh.t

  15. #36

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    JMO, there are players(co-workers) whose numbers and success does not add up to their impact on the work force around them. David West is an example of this. Danny Granger is another. This team lost it's feeling of "Us against Them' when Danny was summarily S+++ canned in the blink of an eye. The message to the other members, especially the youth like Lance and PG and probably Roy, is you better look out for yourself because this organization considers you very expendable at any time. Grownups should understand that, but the first time you face it is still a little disconcerting. Who knew that the cohesion and 'family' attitude of the Pacers was attached to Granger? Bird should have. He was the "man" in Boston long after his body had failed him. I believed then and I believe now that the spur of the moment trade of DG hurt the chemistry of the Pacers. I also believe the Pacers should be over that shock by now and be back to playing for and trusting each other during games. Something does not smell right with this squad. I hope it's just temporary, but it's time to put it to bed and concentrate on the goal.

  16. #37

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    a minor nit to pick: The Bulls didn't trade away their best player. Their best player, and easily the best center in the conference (by a long way) is Noah, no matter how annoying he seems to be. Even that super-ugly push shot of his has become somewhat automatic. Plus the rebounding, hustle, passing, defense in the paint or even coming out of the lane.

    As annoying as he can be, I have to give him credit. He just keeps getting better, and he makes his teammates better too.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 03-25-2014 at 09:06 AM.
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    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by BQQ View Post
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    Zach Lowe ‏@ZachLowe_NBA 1m

    Since 2/1 (semi-arbitrary, I know), Indiana has the 3rd-worst offense in the league -- ahead of PHI and (barely) ORL. So, yeah. Ugly.
    Not really semi-arbitrary. It's the day Bynum signed.

    That started an s-storm of potential chemistry breakers.

    Bynum signed. Paul baby. All Star game. Danny traded. Bynum plays. Paul declares "We call Roy the Big Dawg, but Bynum's bigger." Bynum hurt. Lance baby. Fishes.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Our schemes are pretty poor though. Such little off the ball movement.
    The scheme got bad when they went away from smashmouth and tried being a perimeter team. Simply put, our wings aren't anywhere near good enough to carry an offense.

    I had flashbacks to 2012 preseason last night.
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    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    Not really semi-arbitrary. It's the day Bynum signed.

    That started an s-storm of potential chemistry breakers.

    Bynum signed. Paul baby. All Star game. Danny traded. Bynum plays. Paul declares "We call Roy the Big Dawg, but Bynum's bigger." Bynum hurt. Lance baby. Fishes.
    That's a cop-out though. I agree with UB in the Uncle Buck speaks thread, 100%. It's all 5 starters - each and every one of them. It is their fault. Not any additions to, or subtractions from, the bench or locker room.

    IMO it is their own weak-minded softness and/or lack of focus that is holding us back.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  23. #41
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Our schemes are pretty poor though. Such little off the ball movement.
    Once again is that the schemes or the players not running the schemes. Seems like there are times we have off the ball movement.

    Bill, I agree with you on the passing. It seems to me the passer is making a pass to "look good" without regard who they are passing to. And the frustration level when the pass gets fumbled or doesn't score is getting higher and higher each game. I sense the passer is saying to himself, my pass was great, to bad the receiver is unable to do anything with it. I'm good he's bad.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    Not really semi-arbitrary. It's the day Bynum signed.

    That started an s-storm of potential chemistry breakers.

    Bynum signed. Paul baby. All Star game. Danny traded. Bynum plays. Paul declares "We call Roy the Big Dawg, but Bynum's bigger." Bynum hurt. Lance baby. Fishes.

    I stated at the time of the Granger trade and the Bynum signing that if I were in charge I don't do either. Not because it isn't a talent upgrade, but because of chemistry.

    But I think it is a stretch to think the trade of Danny and signing of Bynum has caused the chemistry problems. Maybe it has, but my best guess is it maybe has had some small marginal effect, but not any real effect

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  27. #43
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    Not really semi-arbitrary. It's the day Bynum signed.

    That started an s-storm of potential chemistry breakers.

    Bynum signed. Paul baby. All Star game. Danny traded. Bynum plays. Paul declares "We call Roy the Big Dawg, but Bynum's bigger." Bynum hurt. Lance baby. Fishes.

    To the day I die, I'll maintain that the "Bynum disrupted chemistry" thing is a complete myth. We went 11-3 immediately after signing Bynum, which started when we won our first 4 games immediately after signing him (including the thriller against Portland). All Bynum did was motivate the guy he was allegedly going to replace, Mahinmi, to play some of the best ball of his career. Bynum said all the right things, stayed in Indy to work, and was yucking it up on the sideline with his teammates every time they showed the bench. When he touched the court, he was everything that you wanted from a center, and I think his teammates appreciated that.

    If Bynum could ever consistently play (which I sadly doubt), it would be one of the best things to ever happen to this team.

    Bynum has nothing to do with PG thinking that he is Durant/LBJ and consistently jacking up such pathetic garbage shots night in and night out, which is by far the biggest problem with this team right now.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    That's a cop-out though. I agree with UB in the Uncle Buck speaks thread, 100%. It's all 5 starters - each and every one of them. It is their fault. Not any additions to, or subtractions from, the bench or locker room.

    IMO it is their own weak-minded softness and/or lack of focus that is holding us back.
    That's why I said "potential chemistry breakers." Not saying any of it should've broken chemistry, but it seems they have not been mentally tough enough to shake it all off.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Nobody gets a pass in this team meeting...

    Here the next thing to look for. How does the "Legend" react? First, in the interest of full disclosure, I have never been a member of the cult. Bird is highly competitive and pretty much calls it the way he sees it, but he is not infallible. Putting it all together at this level has elements of crapshoot, but folks attribute Wizard like powers to French Lick.

    As such, this club is all his. Frank? Scola? Turner? Lance? Max contracts? His.

    The fact he spoke in code thru the Star shows he is concerned. So what does do? Come out, call them out before the playoffs? Let it ride, have it go off the rails and retool in the off season?

    The problem with Superstars putting teams together is that they expect everyone to play as hard as they did. MJ, Magic, Zeke, McHale...and unfortunately, I don't see that kind of steely resolve on this club.

    In my mind, I wouldn't be shocked if this thing tanked in the first round he wouldn't take a powder again. And I'm sure it will be someone else's fault.

    Bad, really bad. And here some real impact. Been working to turn a mini, balcony season tix to a lower level season tix. Working with my brother to take our current seats while we move on. The difference is thousands of dollars.

    I think I'm gonna wait a little longer before we pull the trigger. Not sure I could stomach watching this every night in person.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    The schemes are way slow to develop. Which isn't all that big of a deal, if you can run it. Last night the Bulls just bodied everyone else up, grabbed and got in front of cutters. They simply slowed an already slow offense down to a grinding halt. Passers had no one to throw it too. They had to wait, and then wait some more.

    Gotta get back to running the offense through David West.


    PG just can't run this team. He's struggled his entire basketball life with being "the guy." Guys that have always been the main cog at every level of basketball struggle to do it in the NBA, let alone a guy that's trying to learn how for really the first time on the fly. Not a situation for contenders.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  33. #47
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Our schemes are pretty poor though. Such little off the ball movement.
    Yeah, but how much of that is coaching and how much of that is the players giving less and less of a **** every time they step on the court right now.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    We need CJ back. Also Copeland playing 5 minutes really? Lastly, our bench didn't take enough shots last night.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    We need CJ back. Also Copeland playing 5 minutes really? Lastly, our bench didn't take enough shots last night.
    Evan Turner took them all.

    For all the crap I gave Lance this past week, Evan came into the game and looked like he just became the President of the Lance Fan Club, and it was his duty to do the best impersonation that he could.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Evan Turner took them all.

    For all the crap I gave Lance this past week, Evan came into the game and looked like he just became the President of the Lance Fan Club, and it was his duty to do the best impersonation that he could.

    Evan only took 4 shots dude! That's the problem. Scola took only 4 too. Copeland played 5 mins and got up no shots. Our bench guys should each have no less than 9 attempts (except Ian). Also it's time to play LaVoy Allen at backup center. I just hope CJ comes back soon.

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