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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    We just honestly need the regular season to be over. Hope that the week off till the first round opener refreshes the team and they can figure out some form of offense.

    This ending has been an absolute train wreck.

    Regular season games are really never must wins unless somehow if you win or lose determines if you make the playoffs or not, but this home game vs. the Heat Wednesday is as close to a must win game as you can get. If we lose then there is one game separating us and Miami and we have to go there to play the following week. Anyone feel confident that we can go there and get a win? Me neither.

    In reading the post game thread I am at least happy to see that most people are not making excuses for the team. The last thing I wanted to see tonight is how we were tired or any other form of excuse. We are playing a team that has been decimated by injuries and a lopsided trade that sent away their best player not to mention that most nights they go 7 or 8 deep so their starters play more min a game than ours for the most part.

    No, we just got beat.

    As normal we will salute the Bulls, they were ready for us and they just flat out beat us. They hustled more, they were mentally prepared and what has been a common theme here recently they were just plain tougher than we were. Tom Thibodeau is the coach of the year IMO.

    Let’s talk about us and this won’t take long.

    What has been my one overall theme since I’ve returned? We have no one who will/can night in and night out hit an open jump shot from outside the paint. What happened once again in this game? We have no one who can hit a shot from outside the paint and once again we allowed a great interior defensive team to pack the paint and just dare us to score, which of course we couldn’t.

    Our team shot 37% from the field however if you just go with George, West, Hibbert & Stephenson they combined to go 31% from the field. You are not going to beat any NBA team if 4 of your 5 starters shoot 31% from the field.

    I can’t put it any more plainly than this, if we can’t get someone to hit a face up jumper or to hit a curl screen jumper we are just dead in the water.

    Sure we would all agree with Roy that we need to look inside first however the problem is that team are just doubling the ball in the paint because the do not fear anyone on our team on a consistent basis to burn them.

    I don’t know how to fix this btw, I am beginning to think we are cursed and have offended some form of ancient deity because whoever comes to our team loses the ability over time to shoot. David West missed what, the first 50 shots he took tonight before he finally got one to drop and this guy was known as the 17’ assassin before he got here.

    Paul George is as consistent as an epileptic chicken, Roy Hibbert is Roy Hibbert, Lance is steady but obviously there is chemistry issues with him and the other players and George Hill actually decided to show up tonight but he can’t be counted on every night.

    Missing C.J. Watson hurts (not nearly as much as missing Derrick Rose does for the Bulls so this is zero excuse for this game) as he is a guard who can moderately be counted on to hit a shot.

    Scola obviously used his entire payload on Friday and that’s about it.

    Look guys our defense for the most part is fine. Our offense is beyond a joke.

    So to wrap up this portion of our program let me just reiterate. Luis Scola hits outside shots on Friday vs. the Bulls and it opens up the floor and we win. Nobody can hit any form of outside shot with consistency tonight and we basically lost this game in the first 2 min. of the 3rd quarter.

    BTW, Taj Gibson for the most part, owns us. He had a horrible night Friday (thanks mostly to Luis making him move on defense) but he ruled with an iron fist tonight.

    Also whatever happened to us being a tough physical team? Those days are so long gone that I don’t even remember them.

    While I’m pondering let me ponder this, and this really goes into Uncle Bucks thoughts and I know you are still reading this (you know who you are) but I wonder if trading Danny Granger didn’t disrupt team chemistry more than it helped the on court production? Don’t get me wrong on the floor there have been times where Turner has far outplayed what Danny brought & by no means am I na´ve enough to believe that he would have been a game changer because our struggles started when he was still here. But I wonder if he wasn’t more of a glue guy in the locker room who could get along with anyone?

    What this team could use now more than his outside shot (if it ever falls again) is an injection of the old Danny Granger fire and passion where he wanted to fight whoever was on the opposite side of the court. These guys are all now friendly and soft.

    Bah, let’s just do grades and be done with this.

    Paul George: C

    That’s being generous in my opinion. Look even the great ones have bad games but the truly great ones do not go on 1-2 month slumps. Honestly I just want to see him get angry at something (well besides the referee’s) and then do something about it. Reggie Miller played at a whole other level when he got mad, Danny Granger played at another level when he got mad. Paul George on the other hand just flows like a twig on the shoulders of a mighty stream. Nothing ever bothering him, other than a referee

    David West: C

    Finally started hitting but by that time it was to late. Left several good looks on the floor at the beginning of the game and it cost us several chances to build on an early lead. Just got worked by Gibson all night long. To his credit he did at least try and battle inside and got no help from anyone.

    Roy Hibbert: F

    Soft as a baby’s @ss.

    Lance Stephenson: D

    Was not effective on offense tonight and had a horrible defensive game. When you get worked by Mike Dunleavy you need to re-evaluate your game.

    George Hill: B

    Well at least he showed up tonight, however I’m not feeling generous or the need to dispense needless compliments so I’ll just say he managed to defend DJ Augustine very well.

    I can’t go on

    The bench as a whole is just going to get a collective D.

    I know things look bleak, and they are don’t kid yourself. But if for some reason we can just manage to hold onto the # 1 spot we can at least assure ourselves to face the Hawks and have home court throughout, which may not be beyond the second round if things don’t change.

    It’s not time to throw in the towel but if you aren’t at least concerned with the play then you need to go into motivational speaking.

    This team doesn’t deserve any form of manly music so I’m just giving you the only thing I think that fits both Paul & Roy's game right now. In fact that opening dance sequence with the resulting laughter made me think of Roy's game tonight with both Noah & Gibson reaction to him.

    Last edited by Peck; 03-25-2014 at 12:36 AM.


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Our defense has shown up the past few games. That's at least one positive
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    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Pacers losing their edge in the final stretches is concerning. Hope they can fix this before heading into the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    I put part of this on Bird. All the great teams have a guy who is practically automatic if left open. We need shooters on this team and Scola wasn't even close to the answer. Isn't it ironic that one of the best shooters in history can't find a consistent shooter for his team.
    Last edited by presto123; 03-25-2014 at 12:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    I put part of this on Bird. All the great teams have a guy who is practically automatic if left open. We need shooters on this team and Scola wasn't even close to the answer.
    See that's what's odd. For the first few months of the season he was. He was almost automatic from that elbow jumper and he made it so that our bench didn't lose any form of lead. Now however the starters never have a lead and we have to hope Luis can come in and do something. But since the beginning of the year he has not been able to do it.

    When we start looking at next season, hopefully at the end of June, we are going to have to address getting some form of sharp shooter.


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Doesn't Copeland fill that role?
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    While I’m pondering let me ponder this, and this really goes into Uncle Bucks thoughts and I know you are still reading this (you know who you are) but I wonder if trading Danny Granger didn’t disrupt team chemistry more than it helped the on court production? Don’t get me wrong on the floor there have been times where Turner has far outplayed what Danny brought & by no means am I na´ve enough to believe that he would have been a game changer because our struggles started when he was still here. But I wonder if he wasn’t more of a glue guy in the locker room who could get along with anyone?

    What this team could use now more than his outside shot (if it ever falls again) is an injection of the old Danny Granger fire and passion where he wanted to fight whoever was on the opposite side of the court. These guys are all now friendly and soft.

    I've been beating this drum since day one. I truly hoped and wished that I was wrong, and that it would not turn out the way it has.

    But as yourself Peck and others are and have been noting lately... It seems my gut instinct on this might have been correct.

    One time I really, really hate being right about a 'feeling'.

    Hope we find a way to overcome it... It's happened, and there's nothing we can do but go forward.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    I've been beating this drum since day one. I truly hoped and wished that I was wrong, and that it would not turn out the way it has.

    But as yourself Peck and others are and have been noting lately... It seems my gut instinct on this might have been correct.

    One time I really, really hate being right about a 'feeling'.

    Hope we find a way to overcome it... It's happened, and there's nothing we can do but go forward.
    I did feel the same way because I always thought Danny, whether he's playing or not, has been that glue guy that helps handle the young guys. He's doing really great BTW in LAC so I'm happy for him.

    But I think the problem lies more with the losing cohesion between the starters. It's just not as strong as before. Are there some internal conflicts or tension that we don't know about?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    I agree with most of your post, Peck, but Jo Noah is clearly better than Deng. Noah is first team All NBA this year.


    I do think perhaps the most under-the-radar story of this season is Bird's first real negative stretch as President. There has been so much talk about him going all out, even I called him a cold mother****er. But that near every move he has made has turned out either negative or ineffectual was not something I could have predicted or even conceived. You can talk about the chemistry falling apart. But so many of us believed and continue to believe completely in Larry, who has failed this season (playoffs pending of course).

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    While I’m pondering let me ponder this, and this really goes into Uncle Bucks thoughts and I know you are still reading this (you know who you are) but I wonder if trading Danny Granger didn’t disrupt team chemistry more than it helped the on court production? Don’t get me wrong on the floor there have been times where Turner has far outplayed what Danny brought & by no means am I na´ve enough to believe that he would have been a game changer because our struggles started when he was still here. But I wonder if he wasn’t more of a glue guy in the locker room who could get along with anyone?

    What this team could use now more than his outside shot (if it ever falls again) is an injection of the old Danny Granger fire and passion where he wanted to fight whoever was on the opposite side of the court. These guys are all now friendly and soft.
    Danny went 2-3, hit his only 3, and went 4-4 from the line in 13 minutes tonight. His last game he went 5-9, hit all three of his 3's, hit his only foul shot in 15 min. NOW, he seems just what the Pacers need.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    In reading the post game thread I am at least happy to see that most people are not making excuses for the team. The last thing I wanted to see tonight is how we were tired or any other form of excuse. We are playing a team that has been decimated by injuries and a lopsided trade that sent away their best player not to mention that most nights they go 7 or 8 deep so their starters play more min a game than ours for the most part.

    No, we just got beat.
    Peck, no one made excuses for the Memphis lost either. We just got beat by Memphis in the same manner that we did to the Bulls. Saying that the Memphis game was a back-to-back isn't an excuse. It's a fact. Saying that this game was an away game isn't an excuse either. It's a fact as well.

    Just because the game is a b2b or an away game that doesn't mean that we should lose. That's absolutely clear and I'm quite sure that most of the people that said it was a b2b didn't say that just because they think that we shouldn't win in b2bs. They just clarified that there's always a big chance that this particular team is going to lose the game on the back end of a b2b. That's all. That doesn't mean that it's a good thing. It's obviously a bad thing but it is also expected. That's why people mention that it's a b2b, imo.

    The team doesn't need any excuses. We are playing bad basketball in March. Same applies to the Heat. It's as simple as that.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    I also agree with your point that we need someone to hit an outside shot. We should run some PnP with Copeland as the screener. He can hit outside shots. If Scola is not hitting try him out. Or try Butler. In general, let's try several different looks. We have the weapons. One of them has got to work. It may not be the same one night in and night out but something must work eventually.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Panopticon

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Peck, no one made excuses for the Memphis lost either. We just got beat by Memphis in the same manner that we did to the Bulls. Saying that the Memphis game was a back-to-back isn't an excuse. It's a fact. Saying that this game was an away game isn't an excuse either. It's a fact as well.

    Just because the game is a b2b or an away game that doesn't mean that we should lose. That's absolutely clear and I'm quite sure that most of the people that said it was a b2b didn't say that just because they think that we shouldn't win in b2bs. They just clarified that there's always a big chance that this particular team is going to lose the game on the back end of a b2b. That's all. That doesn't mean that it's a good thing. It's obviously a bad thing but it is also expected. That's why people mention that it's a b2b, imo.

    The team doesn't need any excuses. We are playing bad basketball in March. Same applies to the Heat. It's as simple as that.
    Its an excuse if it does not acknowledge that Memphis was also on the back end of a back to back and had to play later, fly longer and arrive after we did.

    Yes of course teams lose on back to backs. But I will adamantly disagree that the Memphis game was lost because we were on a back to back. Now if you want to say they had homecourt advantage then sure, but I'm not buying the back to back thing at all.


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    Doesn't Copeland fill that role?
    He does but he doesn't get enough PT to perform this role.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Totally agree with Uncle Buck's assessment of recent events: the starting five has bad chemistry. The body language is despicable; the lack of fight is abundant; and the selfishness is self-evident.

    I'm not sure which personalities are to blame, but I'd be least worried about Hill and West. Hibbert is pissing me off more than anyone not named Paul George. And because George is 23 and has unquestionably *shown* top-five talent in the early season, I think Hibbert incites more disgust because he does this every year at some point (although I don't think he's ever been this soft). But George is plenty to blame, and I hate his selfishness and stupid, lazy streaks. If being proclaimed a superstar has gone to his head, then he is in for some unpleasant news -- in addition to the events of his personal life.

    What is disappointing is that the ideal backup center gives way more than the starting one, and he is out indefinitely. I never, ever thought I'd want Bynum more than Hibbert, but alas that is how I feel now. Naptown Seth perhaps wasn't jumping the gun when he compared this year to 2002-2003.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Its an excuse if it does not acknowledge that Memphis was also on the back end of a back to back and had to play later, fly longer and arrive after we did.

    Yes of course teams lose on back to backs. But I will adamantly disagree that the Memphis game was lost because we were on a back to back. Now if you want to say they had homecourt advantage then sure, but I'm not buying the back to back thing at all.
    Ah, I see the disconnect now. When I mention that a game is a b2b I never say that we lost this game solely because it's a b2b. No, 99% of the time you lose the game because the other team played better than you. Now, that's just me but I think that most people that mention the fact that a game was a b2b have a similar approach. A b2b certainly is a factor in how a team plays in a given game but it is never the sole reason that a team lost.

    When I say that a game was a b2b I don't want to take anything away from the other team either. Every single one of our losses this season have been because the other team outplayed us. The opponent certainly deserves full credit for that and I'd never take that away from them.

    The only reason that I mention this is to indicate that we, as fans, shouldn't freak out about that loss (not talking about this particular one, of course). For whatever reason this particular team is not good at b2bs and thus the fans shouldn't consider a b2b loss as unexpected. That's all.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    He does but he doesn't get enough PT to perform this role.
    He gives up just as much on the defensive end. Wouldnt matter if he played 30 minutes.
    Spoiler Spoiler:

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    When is the last time PG scored on one of those dribble-dribble-between-the-legs-dribble-shoot-a-contested-shot at the end of a quarter ??

    Yeah - I can't remember one either.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Danny went 2-3, hit his only 3, and went 4-4 from the line in 13 minutes tonight. His last game he went 5-9, hit all three of his 3's, hit his only foul shot in 15 min. NOW, he seems just what the Pacers need.
    The same Danny who was "done" and completely brokendown according to some...? I wasn't enthousiastic about the trade, because I really liked Danny a LOT, but I thought Turner would give us a plan B this summer with regards to Lance staying or not and I was hopefull he would drive a LOT to the basket and draw a ton of fouls. I was weary of his decision-making though. I'm dissappointed at how it seems to have worked out so far, though there's enough time in the postseason to make it all right again .

    I also stated that people shouldn't count a player, Danny in this case, who has been out as long as he has with a hefty injury. It takes a lot more time for most players to get back to a decent form then just 2 months. And usually the progress in such a situation isn't lineair, but goes with ups and downs.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    When is the last time PG scored on one of those dribble-dribble-between-the-legs-dribble-shoot-a-contested-shot at the end of a quarter ??

    Yeah - I can't remember one either.
    Yet does the coach ever try anything else? Not really. The other four Pacers just stand still because they know there is zero chance of getting the ball. What's the point of wasting energy moving around without the ball when you know that there's a zero chance that PG will pass it?

    For his first three seasons here, Vogel's roll was to be the likable "rah rah" guy who fired the players up after the hated O'Brien. But he was inevitably going to face a challenge where he had to be the "bad guy", and now is that time. He needs to show some spine and reign in Paul George. This isn't some two week long slump that we're talking about here. This is three months worth of hideous selfish offense, and it's created a snowball effect that has killed us on that end. Vogel needs to have some guts by sitting PG down and telling him that he cannot continue to be so selfish on offense if he's going to keep shooting so poorly. Every great coach faces that moment where they have to be the "bad guy", and now is that time for Vogel. The fact that all we do on the last play of a quarter is run crappy PG isos tells me that the coach is doing nothing to stop it. It's not a good sign.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 03-25-2014 at 06:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post
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    He gives up just as much on the defensive end. Wouldnt matter if he played 30 minutes.
    There's a vast difference between playing Cope 4 minutes and 30 minutes. Playing him say 10-15 minutes could very well make things work out for the Pacers. It's worth a shot, especially this close to the postseason. Vogel should have given Luis a couple of games off or just very limited minutes mainly in february. I think his poor shotmaking the past couple of months is atleast partially due to Frank who keeps calling his number, pretty much no matter what.

    Give Scola a few late 1st quarter or middle 2nd quarter minutes or don't play him at all for a week or a week and a half. Then bring him back. I would expect him to be a lot better, while in the meantime Copeland can get more integrated in the bench squad and maybe play a little with some of the starters too when PG for example gets double teamed.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    I put part of this on Bird. All the great teams have a guy who is practically automatic if left open. We need shooters on this team and Scola wasn't even close to the answer. Isn't it ironic that one of the best shooters in history can't find a consistent shooter for his team.

    I'd give anything to have Kyle Korver on this team right now. Of course, he'd probably start shooting 30% from 3 point land if he came here.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    I just think discussing how we don't have enough shooting or discussing the X's and O's is a waste of time if you want to correctly diagnosis what ia ailing the Pacers. It has nothing to do with rotations, or who is healthy, sick or tired. That is sort of like suggesting a marriage failed because the husband had the flu for a week. What?

    No, there are serious chemistry issues here. I fear we need group therapy more than we need to practice our offensive execution.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I just think discussing how we don't have enough shooting or discussing the X's and O's is a waste of time if you want to correctly diagnosis what ia ailing the Pacers. It has nothing to do with rotations, or who is healthy, sick or tired. That is sort of like suggesting a marriage failed because the husband had the flu for a week. What?

    No, there are serious chemistry issues here. I fear we need group therapy more than we need to practice our offensive execution.
    I don't think that these things are mutually exclusive. Teammates watching PG have such poor X's and O's is bound to spill over into the chemistry department. What causes chemistry disruptions? It's usually when guys get frustrated by what's happening in the X's and O's department. Both things are a problem right now for the Pacers.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Being gored by the Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I don't think that these things are mutually exclusive. Teammates watching PG have such poor X's and O's is bound to spill over into the chemistry department. What causes chemistry disruptions? It's usually when guys get frustrated by what's happening in the X's and O's department. Both things are a problem right now for the Pacers.

    Good point. And maybe 6 weeks ago when things first started to change all those things likely led to the chemistry issues we are now seeing. I guess my point is we are where we are now, and I doubt we can get out of the bad chemistry with X's and O's

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