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Thread: Uncle Buck speaks....

  1. #201
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Not talking about the Danny trade. Talking about Lance pounding nails while his teammates watch, and then ***** in the press, while Tater tries to argue Lance doesn't do it.
    I was quoting a Sookie post that blamed chemistry after the DG trade.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    Their stats aren't similar. Lances are better across the board. And he's going to get better, Hill isn't.
    Actually GH last year and Lance this year stats are not all that different.

    PPG
    GH - 14.2
    LS - 14.2

    FGA
    GH - 11.5
    LS - 11.4

    AST - AST%
    GH - 4.7 - 23.4
    LS - 4.8 - 22.3

    TO - TO%
    GH - 1.5 - 10.7
    LS - 2.7 - 17.9
    I bet this will blow some minds, to the point most will be in denial.

    USG%
    GH - 18.8
    LS - 19.5

    Ortg
    GH - 117
    LS - 107

    WS/48
    GH - .177
    LS - .141

    OWS (this season only)
    GH - 3.6
    LS - 2.7


    Outside of rebounds their stats tend to be similar or in favor of Hill. Hill has his faults too, but he is just as capable of producing the same numbers Lance does just in a smarter, more efficient, team oriented way.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I was quoting a Sookie post that blamed chemistry after the DG trade.
    I guess I never got passed the S in the name. Carry on.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Impossible.

    I was rode out on a rail for suggesting that this group could in any way be distracted, let alone lose chemistry, in both the Bynum joins the team thread and my own "2003 comparison thread".

    [/bitterness]

    There's just no evidence to suggest that Bynum disrupted the chemistry. We went 11-3 after adding Bynum, including a 4 game winning streak which started the day we added him. We also won the two games Bynum played (albeit against lousy competition, but a W is a W). After the Celtics game, multiple teammates were in awe after witnessing the grace he brought to the center position. George Hill was practically calling him one of the greatest centers of all time, as if he was Wilt the Stilt. The "Bynum disrupted chemistry" thing has never been backed up by facts. You had some slightly irritable quotes from the Pacers the day he was signed, but it pretty much stopped there. Everyone was cool with him once he got to Indy and showed he was committed to working.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    There's just no evidence to suggest that Bynum disrupted the chemistry. We went 11-3 after adding Bynum, including a 4 game winning streak which started the day we added him. We also won the two games Bynum played (albeit against lousy competition, but a W is a W). After the Celtics game, multiple teammates were in awe after witnessing the grace he brought to the center position. George Hill was practically calling him one of the greatest centers of all time, as if he was Wilt the Stilt. The "Bynum disrupted chemistry" thing has never been backed up by facts. You had some slightly irritable quotes from the Pacers the day he was signed, but it pretty much stopped there. Everyone was cool with him once he got to Indy and showed he was committed to working.
    Yup, but apparently losing Granger's leadership may be having a huge affect.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    One difference between the trade situations being discussed is that I think there was a major locker room subtraction - no matter how good the incoming player is, he would not replace the hole left behind. IF (and we don't know this any more than we know anything else, really) Danny was the "big brother" who kept everyone's focus, then losing that would have a huge effect that has nothing to do with emotions - it only has to do with a vital resource who is no longer there.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Yup, but apparently losing Granger's leadership may be having a huge affect.

    And the Granger thing is at least a plausible theory, though I'm not sure I think it's anywhere near the top of reasons why we aren't playing well. He was here for 9 years and a lot of guys looked up to him. It's understandable that guys could get in a funk after losing a role model. However, it never made any sense to me that guys would get so offended by the addition of a backup center that they'd start to play bad, as if looking at Bynum on the bench made them see red and miss shots. Guys were definitely skeptical about Bynum in the beginning, but I think they quickly saw that he was going to work hard and not be a douche. The only tangible result of signing Bynum was that it lit a fire under Mahinmi.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    And the Granger thing is at least a plausible theory, though I'm not sure I think it's anywhere near the top of reasons why we aren't playing well. He was here for 9 years and a lot of guys looked up to him. It's understandable that guys could get in a funk after losing a role model. However, it never made any sense to me that guys would get so offended by the addition of a backup center that they'd start to play bad, as if looking at Bynum on the bench made them see red and miss shots. Guys were definitely skeptical about Bynum in the beginning, but I think they quickly saw that he was going to work hard and not be a douche.
    Everybody talks about these things as individual events. I don't think any individual thing necessarily would've caused an issue, but there has been so much stuff in the last month and 3/4. Just a lot of little cracks that the pressure of chasing the number one seed has expanded (I think the analogy I want to use is potholes). Hopefully tonight they can play well and start filling in those potholes.....
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Yeah, my only real worry about Bynum was, well what has actually happened. Out indefinitely with an injury. I had a slight worry that his motivation might not be up to par, but I also thought he knows this is most likely his last chance to prove capable of being worth a sizable contract.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    The only thing that needs to be said or changed about the Lance issue....
    He is taking about the same amount of shots all year long. At the beginning of the year, Lance probably took half his shots in transition. Running his one man fast break. Getting out on the break like this masks the Pacers offensive woes. Now Lance takes those same shots in the half court after pounding the rock in ISO situations. Now granted he is shooting 49%? That's great, but the shots are taking away from the rest of the teams already limited offensive flow. Look its hard to have great offensive flow when you have guys like David West and Hibbert taking their time in the post. Much of our offense is just about out executing the other team at what we do, they moved the ball, but only to the extent where the match up was favorable. So the real adjustment is to keep Lance hitting that glass and jumping out in transition to get his easy points. That was easy at the beginning of the year because he wasn't a starter. They brought him off the bench as the 6th man. So the starters had a chance to get their opportunities before Lance came in like a hell on wheels. Remember they were starting a rookie or Butler before Lance got in there. I'm not sure exactly sure why Vogel went away from this other than Lance was just ballin'.

    Vogel doesn't have the guts to make this change though.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 03-26-2014 at 10:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I do, just not sure how much.

    My biggest complaint with Lance is that he's not running as much as he was earlier in the year. We are a team that doesn't get out in transition often enough, and that is what we need from him most. He needs to be more careful with the ball, make the smart play. He's also got to defend better. He's done well most of the year but he has stretches in just about every game he seems to lack focus on that end.

    I also think that we are putting a tremendous amount of pressure on PG and Lance to succeed at a very young age. We are title contenders and Lance is only in his 2nd year as a starter. These guys are 23. That's a lot of pressure on a young ball player. To win the title and beat Miami, those two got to go head to head with two of the best players to ever play, and hold their own. And sometimes I just don't think they are quite ready for that.
    I tend to think more of the problem lies on Lance's shoulders than you do in general, but I also think that many problems would be alleviated if he were to run often. Lance used to try to get out and run every single time he caught the ball. Now, he doesn't even bother unless he's leaking out. When he pushes the ball up the floor, even if the other team pays attention and gets into good defensive position, at worst it forces the rest of his teammates to get up the floor faster so we can get into our offense earlier. I think our coaching staff has been telling our guys to "play smashmouth" and our guards are incorrectly interpreting it as moving the ball up slower.

    I'm much happier with Lance going 1 on 2 or even 1 on 3 in a semibreak situation than I am with him calling his own number in the half court. It makes us unpredictable and much more difficult to guard. The problem is, it doesn't seem to make much difference to Lance.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    The only thing that needs to be said or changed about the Lance issue....
    He is taking about the same amount of shots all year long. At the beginning of the year, Lance probably took half his shots in transition. Running his one man fast break. Getting out on the break like this masks the Pacers offensive woes. Now Lance takes those same shots in the half court after pounding the rock in ISO situations. Now granted he is shooting 49%? That's great, but the shots are taking away from the rest of the teams already limited offensive flow. Look its hard to have great offensive flow when you have guys like David West and Hibbert taking their time in the post. Much of our offense is just about out executing the other team at what we do, they moved the ball, but only to the extent where the match up was favorable. So the real adjustment is to keep Lance hitting that glass and jumping out in transition to get his easy points. That was easy at the beginning of the year because he wasn't a starter. They brought him off the bench as the 6th man. So the starters had a chance to get their opportunities before Lance came in like a hell on wheels. Remember they were starting a rookie or Butler before Lance got in there. I'm not sure exactly sure why Vogel went away from this other than Lance was just ballin'.

    Vogel doesn't have the guts to make this change though.
    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I tend to think more of the problem lies on Lance's shoulders than you do in general, but I also think that many problems would be alleviated if he were to run often. Lance used to try to get out and run every single time he caught the ball. Now, he doesn't even bother unless he's leaking out. When he pushes the ball up the floor, even if the other team pays attention and gets into good defensive position, at worst it forces the rest of his teammates to get up the floor faster so we can get into our offense earlier. I think our coaching staff has been telling our guys to "play smashmouth" and our guards are incorrectly interpreting it as moving the ball up slower.

    I'm much happier with Lance going 1 on 2 or even 1 on 3 in a semibreak situation than I am with him calling his own number in the half court. It makes us unpredictable and much more difficult to guard. The problem is, it doesn't seem to make much difference to Lance.
    Exactly. Although, Lance has actually been starting since the start of the regular season. I think using Lance as the main option with the bench is part of what made him go away from that opportunistic scoring that made him so useful to this team in the beginning. He saw what he could do against bench plays, and thought he should be doing that against starters too. Except there are much better options with the starters.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    One difference between the trade situations being discussed is that I think there was a major locker room subtraction - no matter how good the incoming player is, he would not replace the hole left behind. IF (and we don't know this any more than we know anything else, really) Danny was the "big brother" who kept everyone's focus, then losing that would have a huge effect that has nothing to do with emotions - it only has to do with a vital resource who is no longer there.
    I think Granger provided instant feedback, and helped them to be constantly aware of what they could do differently. However capable of scoring he is/was anymore, Granger was probably our 2nd smartest offensive player. After plays where Lance and Paul would take bad shots, there were lots of times where they cameras showed Granger talking in their ear. Now Rasual Butler's there and does the same thing at times, but I doubt he had the effect Granger did.

    Granger was consistently beating his man and getting an open look. If Paul George got the same shots Danny was getting for himself, I think he could be averaged 26-28 ppg right now.

    So instead of Granger helping them see what they should have done, they have a coach telling them not to take that kind of shot and then moving on to team based strategy.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No, it's actually not. I'll ask you, again, who you think Roy was talking about the other day.

    It's cool that you think Lance hasn't been playing one-on-one ball to the detriment of the team, I respect that you'll defend your guy til the bitter end, but when his teammates/coaches/GM are all talking about it, well yeah..... At some point in time, the opinion of people actually in the trenches has to enter the picture.
    It wasn't Roy that was the stretch, I'll give you that one. iIt was the rest of the names on your list. I haven't seen any of those other guys call Lance out.

    And idc what Roy says personally, Anybody can say anything, doesn't make it true.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I think Granger provided instant feedback, and helped them to be constantly aware of what they could do differently. However capable of scoring he is/was anymore, Granger was probably our 2nd smartest offensive player.
    Heresy!!!

    Don't you remember Granger had supposedly almost no bball IQ according to a lot of posters?
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    It wasn't Roy that was the stretch, I'll give you that one. iIt was the rest of the names on your list. I haven't seen any of those other guys call Lance out.

    And idc what Roy says personally, Anybody can say anything, doesn't make it true.
    So Roy is just off on some tangent that no one else in the lockerroom believes?


    So when Roy talks about Lance not playing as a team, and other guys say the exact same thing but leave out the description of who they're exactly referencing, they're not talking about Lance? Come on...
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Actually GH last year and Lance this year stats are not all that different.

    PPG
    GH - 14.2
    LS - 14.2

    FGA
    GH - 11.5
    LS - 11.4

    AST - AST%
    GH - 4.7 - 23.4
    LS - 4.8 - 22.3

    TO - TO%
    GH - 1.5 - 10.7
    LS - 2.7 - 17.9
    I bet this will blow some minds, to the point most will be in denial.

    USG%
    GH - 18.8
    LS - 19.5

    Ortg
    GH - 117
    LS - 107

    WS/48
    GH - .177
    LS - .141

    OWS (this season only)
    GH - 3.6
    LS - 2.7


    Outside of rebounds their stats tend to be similar or in favor of Hill. Hill has his faults too, but he is just as capable of producing the same numbers Lance does just in a smarter, more efficient, team oriented way.
    I strongly disagree.

    If he can do it, then why doesn't he put on his nikes and just do it? He handles the ball more than anyone on the team. He has been encouraged over and over to be more aggressive. So what's the problem? He gets the offense into their sets most of the time.

    With Hill playing a significant role last year we were not good enough to win a title. And we are trying to win a title. Lance has a different skill set, that we lacked in the playoffs last year, and that is why he has a larger role. His assist numbers may have dropped from early in the season but he is a much better player with the ball than George Hill is.

    Even last year in Lances first season starting he was the key to our success. One of Miamis adjustments in the playoffs was to put LBJ on Lance. That's a pretty big sign of respect, and shows who they were worried about. Would they do that for George Hill? Never.

    Hill is a role player, Lance is a cornerstone type of guy.
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  28. #218

    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Honestly I don't know what in the world those last 4 statistics mean.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by ReginaldWayne View Post
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    Honestly I don't know what in the world those last 4 statistics mean.
    Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.
    Ortg: "Individual offensive rating is the number of points produced by a player per hundred total individual possessions. In other words, 'How many points is a player likely to generate when he tries?'"
    Win Shares Per 48 Minutes (available since the 1951-52 season in the NBA); an estimate of the number of wins contributed by the player per 48 minutes (league average is approximately 0.100).
    Win Shares; an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So Roy is just off on some tangent that no one else in the lockerroom believes?


    So when Roy talks about Lance not playing as a team, and other guys say the exact same thing but leave out the description of who they're exactly referencing, they're not talking about Lance? Come on...
    What is this "description" you speak of?

    Without a description, what is left?

    I see 5 guys not playing as a team. Roy is the only one who has implied it's anything specific.

    And he has absolutely sucked. It sounded more to me like excuses than anything else.

    So no, I don't see the connection.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by ReginaldWayne View Post
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    Honestly I don't know what in the world those last 4 statistics mean.
    They don't mean much of anything.

    They don't factor in that the offense is totally different this year. PG is taking many more shots that he wasn't taking last year.

    If George Hill needs more shots, they should come from PG, who is taking the most and shooting the worst. Lance hasn't taken away from Hill, Paul George has.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    It's not difficult for one guy to bring the other 4 down. One guy starts going off on his own tangent and the other 4 just start saying WTF and it takes 'stuff' away from them. Energy, desire, hustle -- whatever. Tough to imagine the starting 5 falling into a funk all at the same time. Something/someone caused it. Could be that Roy is the only one with enough stones to call it like he sees it.

    I dunno. I'm not in the locker room.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    It's not difficult for one guy to bring the other 4 down. One guy starts going off on his own tangent and the other 4 just start saying WTF and it takes 'stuff' away from them. Energy, desire, hustle -- whatever. Tough to imagine the starting 5 falling into a funk all at the same time. Something/someone caused it. Could be that Roy is the only one with enough stones to call it like he sees it.

    I dunno. I'm not in the locker room.
    So it's not Paul George who is playing horrible while taking the most shots on the team?

    It's the guy who is taking 6 less per game and shooting a good percentages?

    Our record started to slip once PG stopped playing like a star player.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    What is this "description" you speak of?
    The same description I quoted to you just a few days ago. You remember, when you tried denying Roy was talking about Lance, so I posted it and asked who you thought he was talking about, if it wasn't Lance, with you eventually admitting it was Lance....


    EDIT: Here ya go. (Roy's quote is left out, but you can follow the post back to the orginal thread and the quote will be there with highlighted emphasis.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No, Lance isn't the only one who's not moving the ball. But that doesn't absolve Lance either.

    If you don't think Roy wasn't talking about Lance, then who was he talking about with this description?


    So that narrows down the list a bit of potential players he was talking about.

    So if you don't think his comments were directed at Lance, then who were they directed at?
    Last edited by Since86; 03-26-2014 at 11:51 AM.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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  38. #225

    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    Lance hasn't taken away from Hill, Paul George has.
    PG is taking about 2 more shots per game than he did last year.

    Lance - about 4 more.

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