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Thread: Uncle Buck speaks....

  1. #176
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    My thing with Hill is, he is not 23 and still improving, he's 28 and pretty much topped out. And he's just not the player Lance is, even with the experience gap. Look at Lances numbers man, he's a damn good all around player. Hill is a combo guard who isn't great at either position. But Stephenson is probably the 2nd best young (under 25) SG in basketball, behind James Harden. He has potential to be great. I think people severely underestimate his talent level.

    He's 23 and leading a possible 60 win team in 3 pretty important statistical categories and he's been their most consistent player along the way. That's damn impressive regardless of our current play.

    Don't get me wrong, Hill has been good for us. But I just don't see him making us better. I can see Lance taking us to the next level.
    The flaw here is that you're using stats to back up your argument but their stats are very similar (Hill last year to Lance this year).

    You may think that I underrate Lance but I think many overrate him and think hes a superstar in the making. He's not going to be leading any team to an high winning level as the number one offensive option. Hes not a James Harden or anything close IMO.

    As far as young 2guards, he's not better than Klay Thompson, Demar Derozean, and is prob about on par with Wes Matthews (not a knock on either guy, I like them both)

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  3. #177
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Yes, and same can be said for Paul, IMO. And really they all need to ask what they need to do for the team to succeed.
    I agree wholeheartedly.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Jesus, all five of them need to wake the hell up and realize that they aren't going to have as good of an opportunity as they have *right now*, ever again in their NBA career.

    They need to suck it up, and work it out with each other. This is their shot.

    I agree with UB. I think the cohesiveness issue is mostly related to Lance, and I've felt that way for quite a long time. I still think it's correctable, but it's going to require some real leadership and some tough love.

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  7. #179

    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
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    Guys started believing the early season success and media hype and you see the result.
    I couldn't agree more, and I feel Paul and Lance are the major players who got a big head from the media hype.

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  9. #180
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK. then honestly, and I am being one hundred percent honest here, this is what I truly believe. If we in effect turn the team over to Lance then we are going to have to trade, West, Roy, PG and George Hill. Yes all 4 of them. Seriously I think that is where we are. Maybe it isn't Lance's fault at all, but you have to deal with the situation as it is. And I think those 4 don't want Lance on the team anymore
    to state PG, Hill, and Hibbs got issues with Lance doesn't faze me the least. But when DWEST is included that speaks volumes. DWEST aint going nowhere. if lance has truly become that much of an issue that DWEST would not want him around Vogel needs to put Turner in the starting lineup ASAP.

    not like he has to do all that much except stand in the corner anyways. I kinda believe the maturity facet would benefit the starting unit. as long as lance could handle running the 2nd unit. with that said Turners defense gives me shivvers.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I tell ya, that's a truly brilliant idea. Let's get rid of our most consistent player with no way to replace him. I'm sure that will improve the team.

    Let's do it so the guys that have been playing like crap can have more shots! Brilliant!

    Lance has been the scapegoat for this team from day 1. If I was him I'd just leave and find a team that doesn't blame him for everything.
    Lance is my favorite individual player on the team. He's an amazing talent, with one big ole heart. But if he can't play effectively with the other members of the starting team, he's got to go. Period.

    That's what team basketball is all about.

    I don't scapegoat him in any way, personally.. b/c I think this can still turn around, and he's been a consistent contributor throughout the year.

    But if he can't be cohesive with the rest of the players we're already committed to, then he's got to go.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    The flaw here is that you're using stats to back up your argument but their stats are very similar (Hill last year to Lance this year).

    You may think that I underrate Lance but I think many overrate him and think hes a superstar in the making. He's not going to be leading any team to an high winning level as the number one offensive option. Hes not a James Harden or anything close IMO.

    As far as young 2guards, he's not better than Klay Thompson, Demar Derozean, and is prob about on par with Wes Matthews (not a knock on either guy, I like them both)
    Their stats aren't similar. Lances are better across the board. And he's going to get better, Hill isn't.

    I wouldn't trade Lance for Derozen or Thompson. You think Lance shoots too much, you wouldn't like Derozen or Thompson. Derozen shoots 43% on 15 shots a game and Thompson shoots 43.5 on 15 shots a game. Lance is a year younger than both and just a better all around player.

    Wes Mathews is 5 years older than Lance. That's a joke.

    How many young PGs would you take over Hill? 10? 15? 20 maybe?

    Lillard
    Walker
    Rubio
    Lawson
    Curry
    Lowry
    Conley
    Irving
    Wall
    Rose
    Dragic
    Bledsoe
    Oladipo
    Paul
    Jackson
    Williams
    Rondo
    Westbrook
    "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Lance is my favorite individual player on the team. He's an amazing talent, with one big ole heart. But if he can't play effectively with the other members of the starting team, he's got to go. Period.

    That's what team basketball is all about.

    I don't scapegoat him in any way, personally.. b/c I think this can still turn around, and he's been a consistent contributor throughout the year.

    But if he can't be cohesive with the rest of the players we're already committed to, then he's got to go.
    I agree, I said if the whole team doesn't like him he has to go. All I'm saying is letting him walk is D-U-M-B.

    The team CAN play effectively with Lance, they have. Lance can play effectively with them too, he has. I don't see the argument here. I think he's just being scapegoated. He has no bearing on Paul George's poor play offensively, he's just taking bad shots. He has no bearing on Hibberts play either, he's just not getting position where he needs it to be effective. Why Lance is being blamed for that I have no idea. He isn't taking any more shots, and he is shooting a good percentage. I just don't see it from a basketball standpoint.

    If it's a personality thing I could see that. Maybe the guys just don't like him. But saying the team can't play effectively because of him is just not true. JMO
    "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    Their stats aren't similar. Lances are better across the board. And he's going to get better, Hill isn't.

    I wouldn't trade Lance for Derozen or Thompson. You think Lance shoots too much, you wouldn't like Derozen or Thompson. Derozen shoots 43% on 15 shots a game and Thompson shoots 43.5 on 15 shots a game. Lance is a year younger than both and just a better all around player.

    Wes Mathews is 5 years older than Lance. That's a joke.

    How many young PGs would you take over Hill? 10? 15? 20 maybe?

    Lillard
    Walker
    Rubio
    Lawson
    Curry
    Lowry
    Conley
    Irving
    Wall
    Rose
    Dragic
    Bledsoe
    Oladipo
    Paul
    Jackson
    Williams
    Rondo
    Westbrook
    I appreciate your enthusiasm. trust me im pro lance and want to see him succeed.

    at this time I ask tho is he born ready to win a BANNER or born ready to get PAID.


    the BANNER will bring both.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    I appreciate your enthusiasm. trust me im pro lance and want to see him succeed.

    at this time I ask tho is he born ready to win a BANNER or born ready to get PAID.


    the BANNER will bring both.
    I don't see that either.

    Of course he wants to get paid, just like Roy, West, Hill and PG did.

    Lance and West are clearly the two most competitive guys we have. I'm 100% convinced Lance wants to win.

    He certainly ain't dressed in all leather taking pics after the games smilin, lol.
    "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I don't see that either.

    Of course he wants to get paid, just like Roy, West, Hill and PG did.

    Lance and West are clearly the two most competitive guys we have. I'm 100% convinced Lance wants to win.

    He certainly ain't dressed in all leather taking pics after the games smilin, lol.
    then he needs to MAN up and do wat the team wants of him then earn his paycheck in the postseason like PG HIBB did. stop thrown the ball outta bounds on key possessions.

  21. #187

    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    I think this is a monster overreaction thread. I'm not too concerned here. I think they'll figure it out.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    I think this is a monster overreaction thread. I'm not too concerned here. I think they'll figure it out.
    I'll just say this.....if UB.....one of the most pragmatic posters on PD.....says that something is wrong.....then I think that something is wrong. He's not the definitive "end all be all" on any matter like this.....but when he's come over to the "dark side".....then his original post IMHO only solidifies what many ( who have been saying that something has been off-kilter since the ASB ) have been saying since the ASB.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I agree, I said if the whole team doesn't like him he has to go. All I'm saying is letting him walk is D-U-M-B.

    The team CAN play effectively with Lance, they have. Lance can play effectively with them too, he has. I don't see the argument here. I think he's just being scapegoated. He has no bearing on Paul George's poor play offensively, he's just taking bad shots. He has no bearing on Hibberts play either, he's just not getting position where he needs it to be effective. Why Lance is being blamed for that I have no idea. He isn't taking any more shots, and he is shooting a good percentage. I just don't see it from a basketball standpoint.

    If it's a personality thing I could see that. Maybe the guys just don't like him. But saying the team can't play effectively because of him is just not true. JMO
    So, do you think that he shares any blame for how the Team has been playing since the ASB?

    I'm not saying that he should take ALL of the blame....but I think that he has contributed to it.

    How much of the blame? I can see that it's arguable where some may think that he doesn't share any of it at all to being a big part of the problem.

    IMHO....I place a larger blame on Vogel, PG24 and Lance ( mainly because the offense flows through the both of them more than the rest of the Team and they both have a tendency to make mistakes ). But I do not absolve the rest of the Starting lineup from any part of the blame for where we are right now.....especially Hibbert's underwhelming offense as of late.
    Last edited by CableKC; 03-26-2014 at 01:37 AM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I don't see that either.

    Of course he wants to get paid, just like Roy, West, Hill and PG did.

    Lance and West are clearly the two most competitive guys we have. I'm 100% convinced Lance wants to win.

    He certainly ain't dressed in all leather taking pics after the games smilin, lol.
    Yeah but he also isn't playing the kind of ball that this team needs to win. We were dominating when he was a pass first guy who took over sometimes, now he is trying to become a ballhog, dribble and shoot if he can find a shot and if not throw a last second pass which puts us in panic position. Not saying he is all the problem but he isn't immune to criticism either.
    2013-2014
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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    And let me be 100% clear. 100% clear about this. This has nothing, zero, nada to do with the bench players. No this is the starters, plain and simple. The chemistry has fallen apart amongst the 5 starters. They are not playing like a team, they are not together.
    Impossible.

    I was rode out on a rail for suggesting that this group could in any way be distracted, let alone lose chemistry, in both the Bynum joins the team thread and my own "2003 comparison thread".

    [/bitterness]

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  28. #192
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....p

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    Their stats aren't similar. Lances are better across the board. And he's going to get better, Hill isn't.

    I wouldn't trade Lance for Derozen or Thompson. You think Lance shoots too much, you wouldn't like Derozen or Thompson. Derozen shoots 43% on 15 shots a game and Thompson shoots 43.5 on 15 shots a game. Lance is a year younger than both and just a better all around player.

    Wes Mathews is 5 years older than Lance. That's a joke.

    How many young PGs would you take over Hill? 10? 15? 20 maybe?

    Lillard
    Walker
    Rubio
    Lawson
    Curry
    Lowry
    Conley
    Irving
    Wall
    Rose
    Dragic
    Bledsoe
    Oladipo
    Paul
    Jackson
    Williams
    Rondo
    Westbrook
    I'm not debating that Lance is a more talented player than Hill, just that Hill has shown he can produce at the same level that Lance has this year. I also never said Lance shoots too much, just that he needs to blend his individual game in with the rest of the team like he did earlier in the season. I don't judge players solely on statistics and "potential". Yes he is a younger dude, but he's also been in the league for 4 years now. He didn't even get off the bench until last year, and didn't average double figures until this year..his contract season. We have seen plenty of young players blow up during their contract season, nothing new there. He also plays with three other AS caliber players

    Our differing personal opinions of Lance don't really matter in the grand scheme of thins. It's the opinion of his teammates that does matter, and for whatever reason they seemed to be annoyed with the dude and his play recently. I'm basing it off of on-court demeanor, Roy's comments after the NY game, and the lack of togetherness we have seen from the team during it's recent slump. ESPN picked up on this vibe as well.

    To the naked eye Lance's stats look similar to what he was doing earlier in the season, but his game has been pretty different since his AS snub, and it's a detriment to the team right now. (You could say the same thing about Paul as well) So while you boast about his fg% and other stats, his teammates seem to want him to slow his role and play more within himself and the team.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    So, do you think that he shares any blame for how the Team has been playing since the ASB?

    I'm not saying that he should take ALL of the blame....but I think that he has contributed to it.

    How much of the blame? I can see that it's arguable where some may think that he doesn't share any of it at all to being a big part of the problem.

    IMHO....I place a larger blame on Vogel, PG24 and Lance ( mainly because the offense flows through the both of them more than the rest of the Team and they both have a tendency to make mistakes ). But I do not absolve the rest of the Starting lineup from any part of the blame for where we are right now.....especially Hibbert's underwhelming offense as of late.
    I do, just not sure how much.

    My biggest complaint with Lance is that he's not running as much as he was earlier in the year. We are a team that doesn't get out in transition often enough, and that is what we need from him most. He needs to be more careful with the ball, make the smart play. He's also got to defend better. He's done well most of the year but he has stretches in just about every game he seems to lack focus on that end.

    I also think that we are putting a tremendous amount of pressure on PG and Lance to succeed at a very young age. We are title contenders and Lance is only in his 2nd year as a starter. These guys are 23. That's a lot of pressure on a young ball player. To win the title and beat Miami, those two got to go head to head with two of the best players to ever play, and hold their own. And sometimes I just don't think they are quite ready for that.
    "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    4 months ago Lance was a very key piece for a team DOMINATING the entire league. Now they can't play together because of 1 month of .500 ball? Because Lance isn't passing the ball as well as he was earlier in the year? Because he's taking a few more outside shots, and HITTING them? It ain't like they've dropped 10 in a row. It ain't like Lance is jacking up 20 shots and completely taking over the team. He is sharing the ball and at least TRYING to play team ball. And they are still very competitive. These guys are only 23 years old, it is away too early to throw in the towel.
    Bird, Frank, Roy, West, Scola, PG...... They've all said the exact opposite.
    Last edited by Since86; 03-26-2014 at 08:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Bird, Frank, Roy, West, Scola, PG...... They've all said the exact opposite.
    C'mon man that's a huge stretch.
    "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    No, it's actually not. I'll ask you, again, who you think Roy was talking about the other day.

    It's cool that you think Lance hasn't been playing one-on-one ball to the detriment of the team, I respect that you'll defend your guy til the bitter end, but when his teammates/coaches/GM are all talking about it, well yeah..... At some point in time, the opinion of people actually in the trenches has to enter the picture.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Missing the point entirely.

    You do not **** around with the chemistry on championship caliber teams. Period. Larry should have known that. They should be able to pull themselves out of it. But if they don't, my finger points here.
    Why would Larry believe that when his playing career told him the exact opposite? In 1985, the Celtics traded the beloved Cedric Maxwell for Bill Walton. Maxwell was a vital part of two Celtics championships, and even won the 1981 Finals MVP. The 85-86 Celtics didn't mope around about their lost teammate. Instead, they only went on to become one of the greatest teams in league history.

    Heck, Larry's coaching tenure told him the exact opposite too. We traded Antonio Davis in 1999 for a bust draft pick. Davis was a vital part of multiple Pacer ECF's and popular amongst teammates. Did guys like Reggie and Smits spend all season moping? No, all they did was make the NBA Finals that year.

    Of course, the Celtics had incredible mental strength, as did the 2000 Pacers. I'm sure Bird thinks that this Pacer team should have good mental strength by now. This is their third season together. West is an old vet, and guys like Hibbert and George Hill have been in the league for a while now. If the Pacers can't get over Granger by now, then they are not a mentally strong group. I still don't think that it's anywhere near the big problem though. These are basketball problems amongst the key starting players.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 03-26-2014 at 09:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Bird, Frank, Roy, West, Scola, PG...... They've all said the exact opposite.
    Not so sure about Bird. That article where he called out Vogel sounded to me like he was referencing PG, not Lance. For two reasons.

    1. The beginning of the article quotes Bird as saying, "A lot of times we don't take the fight to the opponent."
    That doesn't sound like Lance. Or West. Could be Roy or Hill (offensively) but I don't think they are important enough. PG has been pretty bad about relying on long range shots rather than pushing it to the opponents.

    2. Bird says at the end of the article: "Sometimes, I think, they're not 100 percent committed to their jobs.''
    This is in the context of Kravitz mentioning all this media attention and photo ops, etc, and while the other players get some of those, PG is by far getting the most.
    So, I think it's PG. And that makes sense. Our slump somewhat overlaps with his performances.
    .

    .

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    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Why would Larry believe that when his playing career told him the exact opposite? In 1985, the Celtics traded the beloved Cedric Maxwell for Bill Walton. Maxwell was a vital part of two Celtics championships, and even won the 1981 Finals MVP. The 85-86 Celtics didn't mope around about their lost teammate. Instead, they only went on to become one of the greatest teams in league history.

    Heck, Larry's coaching tenure told him the exact opposite too. We traded Antonio Davis in 1999 for a bust draft pick. Davis was a vital part of multiple Pacer ECF's and popular amongst teammates. Did guys like Reggie and Smits spend all season moping? No, all they did was make the NBA Finals that year.

    Of course, the Celtics had incredible mental strength, as did the 2000 Pacers. I'm sure Bird thinks that this Pacer team should have good mental strength by now. This is their third season together. West is an old vet, and guys like Hibbert and George Hill have been in the league for a while now. If the Pacers can't get over Granger by now, then they are not a mentally strong group. I still don't think that it's anywhere near the big problem though. These are basketball problems amongst the key starting players.
    Not talking about the Danny trade. Talking about Lance pounding nails while his teammates watch, and then ***** in the press, while Tater tries to argue Lance doesn't do it.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Not so sure about Bird. That article where he called out Vogel sounded to me like he was referencing PG, not Lance. For two reasons.

    1. The beginning of the article quotes Bird as saying, "A lot of times we don't take the fight to the opponent."
    That doesn't sound like Lance. Or West. Could be Roy or Hill (offensively) but I don't think they are important enough. PG has been pretty bad about relying on long range shots rather than pushing it to the opponents.

    2. Bird says at the end of the article: "Sometimes, I think, they're not 100 percent committed to their jobs.''
    This is in the context of Kravitz mentioning all this media attention and photo ops, etc, and while the other players get some of those, PG is by far getting the most.
    So, I think it's PG. And that makes sense. Our slump somewhat overlaps with his performances.
    I think it's both of them. I don't try and differentiate which one is playing that way, when both are.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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