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Thread: Uncle Buck speaks....

  1. #51
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Following our playoff series loss to Chicago, Larry Bird's idea was to create a team with 5 solid starters that could combat the "super teams" that have been created throughout the league. He signed D.West, and traded for G.Hill, and ever since then we were a team in every sense of the word. We HAD to play together and with great chemistry both offensively and defensively in order to compete with the Miami Heat's of the world. We created a team environment where no single player was above the team, and everyone had a vital role within that team concept. We took pride in being the more aggressive, more physical, and more active team on the floor.

    Fast forward a few years, a few all star berths, an all NBA berth, and a bunch of attention love and praise, from the press, and things are a little different. Now we are (viewed) as a team with a legitimate superstar (PG), and we have another player who has the talent and mind-set that promotes individuality on the court (Lance). I'm not pointing blame specifically at those two, but I feel that the status of both players is the biggest change we have seen in the team the past two years. When roles change so drastically, it can cause ripples in chemistry--which is what I think we've seen with this team recently.

    The biggest question is, can we get that chemistry back? Can we get that togetherness back? It seems the longer the season goes on, the more we see a break within the team. It wouldn't shock me to see some changes made this off season.

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Danny Granger gave up his prime years on a crap team (with Jim O'brien..I mean seriously..) because of the promise Larry Bird made to him. That they were going to build a great team around him.

    When the time came, we traded him because it benefited the organization.

    You can play the "it's business" card. And as a Pacer's fan, not a players fan, it's completely understandable. And the decision was a logical one on Larry's part. Doesn't make it right.

    But that's not how the guys are going to see it. What was Roy's comment "I don't want to talk about it.."

    Our young guys are going to play inconsistently, no matter how good they are. The vets are going to get annoyed with them, because vets get annoyed at young guys making mistakes. I think that's a normal part of the growth of the team. And I'm not even saying trading Danny is the issue. I'm just saying, that if there is a larger issue that isn't simply a valley in a long season..it's not PG or Lance having a big head. It's not Vogel suddenly being unable to coach. It's what happened to Danny. Do not mess with the chemistry on a championship level team. Period.

    Although I agree with most of your post , I do beg to differ on the bolded part. I dont think Danny "gave up" his prime years. Danny was under contract and really had no other choice but to play with the team he had. Also I believe that there were some questions Bird alluded to about Danny's off season work ethic. I will be the first one to admit that I didn't want Danny traded, and felt he wasn't given enough help or time (he seems to be doing pretty well with LA Clippers)
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Our chemistry is off, and you don't think there's any possibility of it being because the team lost an integral part of their personality?

    It's much more likely to be because of PG's huge ego that he's never before had? I don't buy it.
    nah, they were playing like this before Granger was ever traded. George has been shooting like crap since January. He's been averaging more turnovers since then as well. PG has been taking worse shots more than anything. He was shooting 47% in 2013. Come 2014, he's shooting 39.6%. Y'all wanna call Granger a chucker? PG is worse.

    Lance went downhill with the start of the whole ASG snub. His last double digit assist game was the last game of January. Since then he has averaged 3.5apg. George Hill is averaging over 4apg in that time. Everyone on this board agrees that Lance is a better creator than Hill, yet he's not creating as well over the last two months. Lance had at least 1 assist in every game he played until the last 2 games against Chicago. Even in that 27 assist outburst from the Pacers, Lance didn't have a single one. Chris Copeland even had an assist in that game.

    Roy has been bad too. But here's the thing, offensively we weren't looking at Roy to be a staple. So while Roy's shooting percentage has went from 50% to 43.8%, he's literally only hitting one shot less a game. He's also taking one shot less per game. He hasn't been rebounding as well, Lance, PG and West are all rebounding at a higher rate. So yes, Roy's numbers are down, but West's numbers skyrocketed offensively and both PG and Lance started taking down 2+ more boards a game.

    I see a lot of, stop featuring Roy in the post and go to West more. In general I agree. West is the better offensive player. But he still needs his touches. While PG and Lance need less. Yeah, when PG shoots 48% again, I'm ok with him taking 17-18 shots a game. But when he's hitting 40%? Nope. Pass the ball.

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    Child Of Scorn MnvrChvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I just have next to no sympathy for a guy like Hibbert pouting about losing Granger. Funny how Hibbert didn't seem too big on nostalgia, loyalty, and friendship when he was ready to board a plane to Portland so he could make all of that jack. Hey, I don't begrudge him for wanting to take the money and I would have done the exact same thing, but I'm not going to have any sympathy for him when he acts all mopey about losing Granger. Playing with Granger wasn't very high on his priority list when he was about to be a highly paid Trail Blazer. Guys like Hibbert, PG, West, and Hill need to understand that their obscenely high salaries are why the Pacers got into a position where they had to make some difficult choices.

    ...
    This! I'm STILL mad about Bird trading away Granger. I'm personally loyal to Granger for the time he's stuck it out with us. (And yes, he was getting paid well, but he could have requested a trade and just about any team would have taken him at that salary if he wanted to give up on Indiana.) But the rest of the team has no room to complain about it. Because of the salaries that they are not currently living up to, the Pacers had no feasible way to bring Danny back unless Danny was willing to take the vet minimum to stay. And I don't think that would be doing Danny any favors. If Danny was really that important, then the starters should have renegotiated their salaries to be able to keep him. If not, then he can't be the excuse.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Although I agree with most of your post , I do beg to differ on the bolded part. I dont think Danny "gave up" his prime years. Danny was under contract and really had no other choice but to play with the team he had. Also I believe that there were some questions Bird alluded to about Danny's off season work ethic. I will be the first one to admit that I didn't want Danny traded, and felt he wasn't given enough help or time (he seems to be doing pretty well with LA Clippers)
    He could have asked for a trade and gotten the hell out of here.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    People keep talking about Hibbert being ready to sign with Portland but I think all of you who are complaining about that are completely missing the boat.

    Keep in mind that Donny was in charge when this happened, Donny has a history of telling players to go out and see what the market will bear, with him being a restricted free agent I think Donny told him to take the highest offer and he would match it. I don't think that Hibbert was trying to leave, The Pacers could have offered him more so this actually saves the Pacers money while Hibbert knows this was the market value.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    He could have asked for a trade and gotten the hell out of here.
    Or have been a locker room disruption to force a trade. Or have gone to the media. Or have faked injuries. The list goes on

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    The wheels were already coming off with Granger here, you'd had to have been under a rock to not see that. Bird made a move to attempt to jumpstart the team again. It hasn't worked out, but it was one of the few moves at his disposal.
    Bird clearly did not understand the problem. If he did he would have traded Lance. You would have to be blind to think the main problem isn't Lance. It was prior to the All-Star break, and still is. Yeah Paul hasn't been great, but the guys have bought into him being a great player. They like him and respect him. Lance they don't. I also think Paul has respect for the other players on the team as well, where Lance clearly does not. Paul's play clearly isn't helping, but it starts and ends with Lance.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    People keep talking about Hibbert being ready to sign with Portland but I think all of you who are complaining about that are completely missing the boat.

    Keep in mind that Donny was in charge when this happened, Donny has a history of telling players to go out and see what the market will bear, with him being a restricted free agent I think Donny told him to take the highest offer and he would match it. I don't think that Hibbert was trying to leave, The Pacers could have offered him more so this actually saves the Pacers money while Hibbert knows this was the market value.
    Yeah, people are focusing on the wrong thing, and completely ignoring that Hibbert never even signed Portland's offer sheet. It was just the typical let him test the market so we don't pay him $14 million when he would have only gotten $12 on the free market.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    The more we talk about the shift of the offense to Lance and Paul the more I realize..it's HARD for wing tandems to lead an offense efficiently. Obviously you have the exceptions to the rule in Jordan/Pippen, Wade/James, and maybe a Durant/Westbrook, but even the last two tandems have struggled at different times. Obviously Lance and Paul do not match these other tandems in terms of talent and skill, so maybe the emergence of both players has thrown off the entire starting 5.

    What makes it worse is that one sees the other jack up a horrible shot attempt without consequence, so they feel that they should be able to do the same thing. Earlier in the season we were able to get away with this because we were hot, but also because we had the talent to make concerted comebacks every other game. Well now, we aren't nearly as hot, and the long season has caused teammates to be disgruntled with these tough, contested shot attempts.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Bird clearly did not understand the problem. If he did he would have traded Lance. You would have to be blind to think the main problem isn't Lance. It was prior to the All-Star break, and still is. Yeah Paul hasn't been great, but the guys have bought into him being a great player. They like him and respect him. Lance they don't. I also think Paul has respect for the other players on the team as well, where Lance clearly does not. Paul's play clearly isn't helping, but it starts and ends with Lance.
    Very hard for me to accept that the team's troubles stem solely from the fact that one guy got way better this year from last year, and not playing the right way. If that was the case then the other 4 guys would have reigned him in. I mean seriously. If Lance was that big a problem, you don't think some combination of that 15 man roster wouldn't have stepped in? I mean if it were that simple, Vogel would have stepped up and quashed this problem by limiting Lance's opportunities. Though i'm not saying Lance isn't a problem, I just think there is a combination of big problems that stem from PG and Lance and Roy.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 03-25-2014 at 01:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Yeah, people are focusing on the wrong thing, and completely ignoring that Hibbert never even signed Portland's offer sheet. It was just the typical let him test the market so we don't pay him $14 million when he would have only gotten $12 on the free market.

    The point is that he would have bolted had we not ponied up. If Portland pays more, then he's a Blazer.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Very hard for me to accept that the team's troubles stem solely from the fact that one guy got way better this year from last year, and not playing the right way. If that was the case then the other 4 guys would have reigned him in. I mean seriously. If Lance was that big a problem, you don't think some combination of that 15 man roster wouldn't have stepped in? I mean if it were that simple, Vogel would have stepped up and quashed this problem by limiting Lance's opportunities. Though i'm not saying Lance isn't a problem, I just think there is a combination of big problems that stem from PG and Lance and Roy.
    I can only get so frustrated with a wing who is shooting 50% on the season. He's not perfect. He makes mistakes, holds the ball too long, and likes to focus on getting on the highlight reel. But he's also been our most consistent player this year and is a huge reason why we won so many games. He's been way better at his role than PG has at his lately.

    Our biggest problem is that we allow a guy who has been shooting about 40% for three months to hog such a disproportionate amount of our shots.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Very hard for me to accept that the team's troubles stem solely from the fact that one guy got way better this year from last year, and not playing the right way. If that was the case then the other 4 guys would have reigned him in. I mean seriously. If Lance was that big a problem, you don't think some combination of that 15 man roster wouldn't have stepped in? I mean if it were that simple, Vogel would have stepped up and quashed this problem by limiting Lance's opportunities. Though i'm not saying Lance isn't a problem, I just think there is a combination of big problems that stem from PG and Lance and Roy.
    Would he?

    It's the exact thing Bird said he should do about two weeks ago, without saying which player he was talking about, and we've not seen anything like it. When was the last time Vogel pulled a starter from his regular rotation? I can't think of a single example.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    If anyone is going to have a talk with Lance about anything on the court - it should be the guy that picked him and helped develop him into the player that he is (good & bad).

    Larry.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I can only get so frustrated with a wing who is shooting 50% on the season. He's not perfect. He makes mistakes, holds the ball too long, and likes to focus on getting on the highlight reel. But he's also been our most consistent player this year and is a huge reason why we won so many games. He's been way better at his role than PG has at his lately.

    Our biggest problem is that we allow a guy who has been shooting about 40% for three months to hog such a disproportionate amount of our shots.
    PG has scaled back the number of attempts he's taking. Earlier in the year when we were talking "Paulhog" his shot attempts were around 19 per game. I was arguing it was on par with what any leading scorer would be taking. By the time the ASG rolled around, FGA/game was down to about 17per game, post ASG it's 16 per game.

    I have a hard time believing it's the fault of the guy who's been scaling back his offense, as opposed to someone who's ramping up theirs, seeing as how the Pacers were at their best with PG in that role (with more shots) compared to their lack of success with the wings new roles.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Very hard for me to accept that the team's troubles stem solely from the fact that one guy got way better this year from last year, and not playing the right way. If that was the case then the other 4 guys would have reigned him in. I mean seriously. If Lance was that big a problem, you don't think some combination of that 15 man roster wouldn't have stepped in? I mean if it were that simple, Vogel would have stepped up and quashed this problem by limiting Lance's opportunities. Though i'm not saying Lance isn't a problem, I just think there is a combination of big problems that stem from PG and Lance and Roy.
    Just because something should happen doesn't mean something will happen. The players themselves can only do so much, but if the guy doesn't listen and the coach doesn't do anything there isn't much they can do. As pointed out by Bird himself, Vogel isn't doing what he should to reign Lance in. I have been very disappointed with how Vogel has handled Lance this season. I am not saying Paul's play isn't a problem, but when the players are clearly more focused on Lance his play is being ignored. I for one believe that if Paul's play was the main problem, and Roy, West, and Hill confronted him about it he would change the way he was playing to help the team. Paul is still learning, but he doesn't have the ego Lance does.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    PG has scaled back the number of attempts he's taking. Earlier in the year when we were talking "Paulhog" his shot attempts were around 19 per game. I was arguing it was on par with what any leading scorer would be taking. By the time the ASG rolled around, FGA/game was down to about 17per game, post ASG it's 16 per game.

    I have a hard time believing it's the fault of the guy who's been scaling back his offense, as opposed to someone who's ramping up theirs, seeing as how the Pacers were at their best with PG in that role (with more shots) compared to their lack of success with the wings new roles.
    PG shot attempts by month.....not the best way to break it down, but I'm short on time:

    (Throwing October out since it was just two games)

    November: 14 games, 246 FGA's (17.57 attempts per game)......47.2 FG%
    December: 14 games, 237 FGA's (16.92 attempts per game)......46.8 FG %
    January: 15 games, 268 FGA's (17.866 attempts per game)........41.0 FG%
    February: 12 games, 207 attempts (17.25 attempts per game)........40.1 FG%
    March: 14 games, 214 attempts (15.28 attempts per game).........37.4 FG%

    Not the best metric in the world since there are only 12 games in February while there are 15 in January, but it will have to do for now. I just don't see much of a difference when it's broken down that way. Let's compare December and March since as of now there were 14 games in each. In December, he attempted 16.92 shots per game. In March, he has attempted 15.28 per game. That's a pretty trivial difference when you're talking about a bunch of shots spread over 48 minutes. However, what's not trivial is the difference in shooting percentages. He was shooting 46.8% back in December, so it was all well and good that he was shooting so much. But he's only shooting 37.4% now, yet he is only taking about 1 and a half less attempts per game. That's just unacceptable when he's been shooting so poorly for three months. He needs to take less shots.

    But it's not just the quantity of the shots. I could accept the low shooting percentages if he was taking smart shots that just weren't falling. But many of these aren't smart shots. Instead, they are poorly forced rushed shots and crappy drives that too often with him whining to the refs after clanking it off the rim/backboard. Take last night for example. Multiple ill-advised forced ISO jumpers after some dribbling that didn't fool anyone. A couple of weak takes that were blocked (with the patented whining to the refs afterword). The worst sequence was with about 2 minutes left in the game when he took (and missed) THREE SHOTS in the same possession without passing once. It was just selfish basketball. This guy has been forcing junk for three months now and he's just not converting. This team is way too talented to put so much offensive emphasis on him when he's playing like this.

    Revolving around this guy just isn't working right now.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 03-25-2014 at 02:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    This guy has been forcing junk .............
    Could you have phrased this ANY other way ??

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Could you have phrased this ANY other way ??
    LMAO!!!!

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Bird clearly did not understand the problem. If he did he would have traded Lance. You would have to be blind to think the main problem isn't Lance.
    So Lance is the reason that Paul is chucking, George and David being inconsistant, and Roy getting punked by other centers? Lance has his flaws, but so does the other starters.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    The biggest trend amongst our dialogue seems to be blame either Paul or Lance, with a smattering of you have to look at both. I'm in this latter camp, and I suspect the truth is closer to this middle ground that at either extreme. It has to be their developing profiles, increased attention, and larger roles on the team, particularly offensively.

    Although I will freely admit that Hibbert is maddening and it may well be that "bad" Hibbert stretches are more the norm and "good" Hibbert stretches the exception. Not long ago many of use were touting this as our foundational core for years to come. Now they are all playing poorly and apparently they cant get along at all. Is this turning into a JO/Ron-Ron situation where two guys can't find a way to negotiate being "the man" with the best interest of the team and winning? Sounds like a bunch of unprofessional, immature behavior. Somebody has to step in and get those three straightened out or it is about to spiral out of control.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    PG has scaled back the number of attempts he's taking. Earlier in the year when we were talking "Paulhog" his shot attempts were around 19 per game. I was arguing it was on par with what any leading scorer would be taking. By the time the ASG rolled around, FGA/game was down to about 17per game, post ASG it's 16 per game.

    I have a hard time believing it's the fault of the guy who's been scaling back his offense, as opposed to someone who's ramping up theirs, seeing as how the Pacers were at their best with PG in that role (with more shots) compared to their lack of success with the wings new roles.
    But alot of it isn't just how many shots he's taking (sometimes), but what kind of shots he's taking. For instance, last night Chicago, especially Dunleavy, were getting alot of shots off of picks. And they were usually either wide open or had an open lane to take it to the rim. Alot of Paul's shots were him being stuck in hero-mode, and ending up with him taking 17+ footers with Butler draped all over him. Or getting a ball completely stripped out of his hands on a fast-break.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    But it's not just the quantity of the shots. I could accept the low shooting percentages if he was taking smart shots that just weren't falling. But many of these aren't smart shots.
    Then why are we giving Lance an out, brining up his FG%, when talking about his performances? His shot selection has been down right AWFUL.

    EDIT:
    I'm glad he's been hitting them, but there's nothing that will ever convince me that watching Lance pound nails for 5-6 seconds, only to throw up a fade away jumpshot, is a good shot. There's no rational explanation to talk about crappy shot selection, and leave Lance Stephenson out of the discussion.
    Last edited by Since86; 03-25-2014 at 03:13 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Then why are we giving Lance an out, brining up his FG%, when talking about his performances? His shot selection has been down right AWFUL.

    EDIT:
    I'm glad he's been hitting them, but there's nothing that will ever convince me that watching Lance pound nails for 5-6 seconds, only to throw up a fade away jumpshot, is a good shot.

    I know there's no way to measure it, but we've got to be one of the lowest IQ basketball teams in the league. I seriously think Larry needs to take this into consideration on future signings.

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