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Thread: Uncle Buck speaks....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Uncle Buck speaks....

    This post has to much to say to be buried in the post game thread. Also who is saying it is important as well.

    I've seen enough.

    Most of you know me I am slow to make any rash judgments. Never get too high or too low. Always think things tend to even out and a team is never as good as they seem after a win or as bad as it seems after a loss.

    But there is something wrong with this team. The effort is still generally good, but something is really missing, this is not the same team we saw through the first half of the season or in the playoffs last year.


    The fire is gone, the chemistry is gone, the togetherness is gone, the fight is gone, the sense that if I don't get the job done my teammate will be there to back me up - is completely gone. Put simply I see the trust that is needed to be a winning team has vanished. As we all know in any relationship once the trust is gone, it is almost impossible to get it back.

    And let me be 100% clear. 100% clear about this. This has nothing, zero, nada to do with the bench players. No this is the starters, plain and simple. The chemistry has fallen apart amongst the 5 starters. They are not playing like a team, they are not together.

    Two simple plays I say tonight that had to do with body language. (and believe me it is not just tonight, it has been through the past probably 20 games). There was a 2 on 1 fast-break PG had the ball on the left side of the floor, lance was on the right side of the floor. Lance wanted a lob (not really sure It was there - that isn't really the point - PG ends up missing the shot, Lance looks at PG after the play with hands out, as if saying why didn't you pass the ball. PG never looked at Lance at all - on purpose, (there was a timeout right after that play) they didn't walk to the bench together. It was an obvious situation. A yelling or screaming argument would have been more encouraging to me. Sort of like a relationship when things are really bad you actually stop fighting - you just don't care anymore.

    The other one Lance pulls up and takes an early three, and if you look at the reaction of PG, Roy and Hill (West wasn't visible, he was off camera) each of those three players had a disgusted reaction, none tried to even attempt a rebound. I've watched enough basketball, played enough basketball back in my day to know the look and reaction. I've been on teams where a player or two doesn't play team ball, and it tears the team apart. That is what I saw tonight and what has been evident over the past few weeks.

    Sort of like at work, when a co-worker isn't being a team player and you decide you are going to just do your job, keep your head down, not care about your co-workers, every person for themselves. If they aren't going to be team players, then I certainly am not, and I have to look out for myself anyway. Not that you quit doing your job, but your sense of caring for your c-worker and the company, organization, team is gone. You care about yourself only.

    That is what has happened (past tense)

    Let me make something else very clear, I am not blaming anyone in particular. I'll blame all 5 starters - each and every one of them. It is their fault. To me they look sick of each other. If this team fails in the playoffs, however you want to define that, the starting 5 has to be changed in a significant way. Probably 2 of the 5 starters have to be moved. And I am not suggesting who it should be, it might not matter, but these 5 might not be able to play well together again for extended periods of time. Some relationships start hot and fizzle quickly, maybe that is what we are seeing.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Bring Back Bender bballpacen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    I dont know what has caused this relationship to fizzle out, but something has got to be done to get things changed around for this season... Or this season too will fizzle out before it should...

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    A little bit of a fight might be good for this whole team honestly. They're a little too nice to each other, and I don't mean one in the media either. Needs to be done in practice.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    I think it has to do with PG having a lot of **** on his plate any no one on the team stepping up to help him as a human being.


    Carmel HS Class of 2011

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Uncle Buck needs to get that giant pancake turner and knock some sense back into this team.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by neosmndrew View Post
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    I think it has to do with PG having a lot of **** on his plate any no one on the team stepping up to help him as a human being.
    So, everyone is to blame except for PG24?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    I think this really started to boil over after that loss to Orlando before the All star break, we just have looked even worse since then.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    I agree, this off season major changes need to be made including the possibility of moving George and/or Hibbert.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    This could be rather simple: PG is chucking with no consequences from the coach. After a while, Lance says, "Heck, I'll do the same."
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Everyone already knows that the problem is. Vogel turned this team over to the 23 year old wings who want the ball in their hands on every possession. One is trying to cement his superstar status. The other is trying to blow up for his next contract. Both of them are putting their own needs ahead of the team. So the ball sticks every other possession. I seen David West last night against the Bulls just stand in place after giving a good ballscreen for PG, who came off the screen and just dribbled at the 3pt line. Didn't try to make a decisive move off the screen. Just started pounding it. West just stood there and starred at him until he took the shot. I couldn't tell if West was just day-dreaming or if he was purposely not giving him space to operate, or if West thought PG should come back and take advantage of another pick. Either way he did not want PG taking that shot there.

    George Hill has seen his role on the team completely vanish this year so that Lance can have another handful of shots, and run plays for himself. Alot of you are saying that's Hill's fault for not playing better, but they are taking the ball out of his hands and making him the guy who stands in the corner.

    Hibbert had a slump and the 2 wings decided that he is no longer important on offense. So now he looks disengaged, soft. They dont' feed him the ball after he makes a great defensive play. Hibbert now makes sure he shoots a hook or something when the feed him in the post because he knows his shot opportunities are limited. It used to be that Hibbert would have no problem working the post, draw a double team and kick it out to the 3pt line for an easy shot.

    I just don't think West, Hibbert or Hill like playing with PG or Lance right now. Vogel has talked about how these guys have had to sacrifice this year, well thats great when the team is winning. But when they have been treading water for 2 months, guys take notice and they start to think why the **** he taking those shots for...resentment is a slow creep that that can build a large swell.

    THis team was not built on relying on PG or Lance to carry the team night in and night out. It was built on 5 talented guys playing together and having each others back.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 03-25-2014 at 08:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    I think all of the starters should share some of the blame,but to me It seems like Paul George's ego has out grown his level of talent. He's not LeBron or Kevin Durant, and he needs to understand that.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    I blame PG. He would rather be "the man" then sacrifice for a winning team. I have seen too many wasted possessions where PG chucks up horrible shots. When are we going to admit that PG cannot shoot. PG is no longer the young, humble, eager to learn player that Pacer fans connected with. Now he is a whiny, bratty, and selfish player. Why would anybody want to play with a star player that carries himself like PG?
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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Handoverfist View Post
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    I think all of the starters should share some of the blame,but to me It seems like Paul George's ego has out grown his level of talent. He's not LeBron or Kevin Durant, and he needs to understand that.
    Exactly!! I understand that PG wants to be as good as LeBron and KD, but honestly which NBA player doesn't want to be as good as those guys? Selfish of PG to force the issue at the detriment of his team. Basketball is a team game, and if you aren't as good as the elite players, you adjust your game to fit in.
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    I thought this was interesting

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.1730415

    Buried in an article about Phil Jackson and the Knicks:

    Regarding Indiana’s post-All-Star break mediocrity: We’ll chalk some of it up to the fact they weren't a great team to being with, even if they did go 39-10 in their first 49 games. More recently, Paul George is learning how to be a superstar. His recent subpar play tells you that it can be a struggle, especially if there are off-court issues involved. The Pacers are saying, privately, that George is going through the same maturity issues all young players go through and they’ll work themselves out.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    I blame PG. He would rather be "the man" then sacrifice for a winning team. I have seen too many wasted possessions where PG chucks up horrible shots. When are we going to admit that PG cannot shoot. PG is no longer the young, humble, eager to learn player that Pacer fans connected with. Now he is a whiny, bratty, and selfish player. Why would anybody want to play with a star player that carries himself like PG?
    I think PG has been incredibly selfish too. He took his early season success has a green light to take over the offense, when he was actually playing well because of the offense. Thats what is so perplexing about Hibbert saying the other day that PG has earn his trust and has the greenlight while Lance(process of elimination) should tone it down. Maybe he thinks only one player on a team should be calling his own number playing hero ball. But PG has been terrible at it.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    I'll throw in my .02 as to what I feel. I feel when Stephenson started getting his trip doubs is when this team started not playing together. To me, it looked like Lance started getting too big for "the team". He's now playing for Lance and a big contract. Personally, I don't feel he cares where that contract comes from either.

    I see him feeling he's the #1 player on this team, and he doesn't want to share his elevated status now. He's "the player" where he wants the recognition as such, and isn't interested in sharing with PG. This causes problems with the other players especially 2 time Allstar Paul George. PG has always been a sloppy careless passer, but he tries to force passes to others even more now. He seems to be of the mindset he should be the leader, and it's his position to take "the shot" even when he doesn't have a good shot. PG has gone away from playing team ball to the tune at times of playing hero ball.

    I feel these 2 players with their mindset and their play are effecting the play and chemistry of the other players. This isn't the "great big family" this team was earlier in the year. Other players aren't happy with the situation, so combining all this creates the poor play since the allstar break.

    I'm also not so sure bringing in Turner hasn't caused some jealousy with Stephenson and George having to share with another player. JMOAA

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    I know I'm sort of the Pollyanna of the board.

    But the reality is, team's go through ups and downs. We go through this "The world is ending" every season..actually..around this time. And EVERY season, this team comes out of it. Peaks and valley's happen. That's the nature of a team.

    If..and I do mean..IF there is an actual irreversible problem. I blame Larry Bird. He screwed with the team that had great chemistry. And quite possibly made it clear to the players over how much loyalty the Pacers are actually going to show to them... People here wanted Granger gone, wanted a new toy. Danny wasn't a toy to the players. He was, at the very least, an important personality to the team..and sure looks like he could have helped on the court too.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    This could be rather simple: PG is chucking with no consequences from the coach. After a while, Lance says, "Heck, I'll do the same."
    To be fair, this issue IMO goes back to Lance missing the ASG. He totally changed his game, he hasn't been bad per say for him individually, but I do think it affected the MOJO of the whole team. Lance has been facilitating less and less, Paul has been too, but we relied on Lance's facilitation quite a bit more.

    That being said, PG being named a starter and getting the 3rd most votes and all the things that come with that, well that hasn't been great for him either. Both of them are 23 so I think they will both grow out of it, but it may very well torpedo this season.

    I am a little more concerned with Roy who is what, 27? He should be helping these guys work through these issues at this point, not jumping into the mental soup next to them by throwing one of them under the bus while building up the other one.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 03-25-2014 at 09:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    This is from the daily dime. The whole artiucle is good, but IMO this is what has changed with this team.

    If someone stuck a gun to my head and said tell me what caused the problems we now see. IMO this is the biggest reason for the problems. The part I highlighted is what I see on the court. You can say well it is Lance's teammates fault, well maybe it is, but we are where we are, and this is what is happening. Can it be corrected internally? Or do certain players need to go.


    http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/p...lenging-pacers

    It's also not hard to miss how annoyed some Pacers are with Lance Stephenson, the young sparkplug guard who was a huge key to their early season. Stephenson has four triple-doubles this season but at times he's been too focused on getting those stats, robbing rebounds from teammates and generating some frustration. Other times he flat-out hogs the ball. And while this happens with many players on every team, the tolerance for the younger and rougher Stephenson is much less than for the veterans elsewhere on the roster. On Monday, Stephenson had no assists and four turnovers in 30 minutes in the loss. When he drops his head and ignores open teammates, heads shake and shoulders slump visibly. After averaging nearly six assists a game in the season's first three months, Stephenson is averaging only three assists over the last two months.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-25-2014 at 09:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    If..and I do mean..IF there is an actual irreversible problem. I blame Larry Bird. He screwed with the team that had great chemistry. And quite possibly made it clear to the players over how much loyalty the Pacers are actually going to show to them... People here wanted Granger gone, wanted a new toy. Danny wasn't a toy to the players. He was, at the very least, an important personality to the team..and sure looks like he could have helped on the court too.

    Who does this franchise need to show loyalty to? The Roy Hibbert who was ready to bolt for Portland until we bent over to pay him an obscene amount? Yeah, he has a lot of clout when it comes to "loyalty". The PG who we're paying to be our Kevin Durant? The George Hill who we are overpaying? The David West who will be making 12.6 million as a 35 year old? The Lance Stephenson who likely will be paid handsomely by the Pacers this summer?

    These guys have ZERO room to question this organization's loyalty. Their pal got traded this year, a season that was going to be his last here no matter what. I get that they miss his presence, but we did go to Game 7 of the ECF's without him last year. Sure he was still on the bench and in the locker room, but the fact remains that we figured out how to thrive without him on the court. I get that the guys miss their friend, but the problems with this team are waaaaay beyond that. PG's "I'm the new LBJ" ego was starting to get out of control long before DG was traded. It's just unfortunately reached a boiling point right now.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Everyone already knows that the problem is. Vogel turned this team over to the 23 year old wings who want the ball in their hands on every possession. One is trying to cement his superstar status. The other is trying to blow up for his next contract. Both of them are putting their own needs ahead of the team. So the ball sticks every other possession. I seen David West last night against the Bulls just stand in place after giving a good ballscreen for PG, who came off the screen and just dribbled at the 3pt line. Didn't try to make a decisive move off the screen. Just started pounding it. West just stood there and starred at him until he took the shot. I couldn't tell if West was just day-dreaming or if he was purposely not giving him space to operate, or if West thought PG should come back and take advantage of another pick. Either way he did not want PG taking that shot there.

    George Hill has seen his role on the team completely vanish this year so that Lance can have another handful of shots, and run plays for himself. Alot of you are saying that's Hill's fault for not playing better, but they are taking the ball out of his hands and making him the guy who stands in the corner.

    Hibbert had a slump and the 2 wings decided that he is no longer important on offense. So now he looks disengaged, soft. They dont' feed him the ball after he makes a great defensive play. Hibbert now makes sure he shoots a hook or something when the feed him in the post because he knows his shot opportunities are limited. It used to be that Hibbert would have no problem working the post, draw a double team and kick it out to the 3pt line for an easy shot.

    I just don't think West, Hibbert or Hill like playing with PG or Lance right now. Vogel has talked about how these guys have had to sacrifice this year, well thats great when the team is winning. But when they have been treading water for 2 months, guys take notice and they start to think why the **** he taking those shots for...resentment is a slow creep that that can build a large swell.

    THis team was not built on relying on PG or Lance to carry the team night in and night out. It was built on 5 talented guys playing together and having each others back.
    You're dead on with this. I've brought up several times that our offense has turned into the Paul and Lance show. I would say that Vogel has lost the team but in truth it seems like he's just handed it over to Paul and Lance. Vogel needs to take control and start coaching instead of making excuses. This team is not playing even close to it's potential and I put a lot of that on the coach. It's not like he doesn't know what to do, he just isn't doing it. The formula for successes is there and we've seen it only a few months ago. It's not rocket science, just go back and look at some tape from earlier in the season and tell the guys this is how we're going to play again and make it happen. Play from the inside out and share the ball and if PG or Lance start ignoring the man in the paint or jacking up 3's you sit them down. We don't need one player taking more then 20 shots or 2 players taking 35+ shots but that's what we've turned into. I was encouraged by the prior Bulls game in the way we played and shared the ball. The players looked like they were having fun and on the verge of getting their swagger back. Vogel is capable of getting the team to play like that all the time, I just don't think he's trying.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    In Lance's defense, his skills may not fit with this team. He may be too good for his role.

    But when the best passer on the team slowly forces a bigger role, it's going to have a chain reaction.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    For the record, I still think Lance and Paul will grow out of this. They are both still so young. 23 is still very young, remember Roy Hibbert at 23? The guy could barely get out of his own way mentally and physically. We often forget how young these guys are, especially PG, since we have been seeing him now play huge minutes for us for four years already. I think Lance and Paul can play together, but you may have to change other core pieces of the team to better facilitate it. If our point guard is basically only going to be a 3 point shooter, which is what we've reduced G. Hill too, then we do need to consider dumping his salary there. He is too talented for what we are using him as and spot up shooter is not even best his offensive asset.

    Having two guys that need post touches in Roy and West may also not be the best strategy. A more athletic player who can run with Lance and Paul might be a better option going forward. It will be interesting to see.

    West said it best though, "We look like ****"

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Maybe move Lance to the bench. He can be the star there, if you can sell it as not a demotion. Too bad Danny's not here, you could just move him into that spot and the chemistry would be there. Try Evan Turner there maybe, but he's struggling big time, imo. How about putting a shooter Vet like Rasual Butler in the starting line up? He'd be a nice fit both mind and court wise. I hate to cater to these guys and the unresolved issues, but at this point you need to make this work for the playoff run.

    I think Larry would probably want to sit PG, Lance, and Roy for a couple of games, but when your Legend you have more leeway to do those things and not kill a season.

    This makes the offseason much more a predicament.

    Great job as always UB.

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    Default Re: Uncle Buck speaks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Maybe move Lance to the bench. He can be the star there, if you can sell it as not a demotion. Too bad Danny's not here, you could just move him into that spot and the chemistry would be there. Try Evan Turner there maybe, but he's struggling big time, imo. How about putting a shooter Vet like Rasual Butler in the starting line up? He'd be a nice fit both mind and court wise. I hate to cater to these guys and the unresolved issues, but at this point you need to make this work for the playoff run.

    Great job as always UB.
    That would be an extreme move but if it were 15 games earlier I think it would be a good idea. With 11 games to go I think it's too late to try that.

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