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Thread: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Tough interior defense, aggressive rebounding that led to fast break opportunities, shots in the paint, dominating your opponent with smash mouth basketball. I’d love to say that this was the Pacers game however the harsh brutal reality is that this was Grizzly basketball and we were the recipients of a beat down of Biblical proportions.

    Spare me the back to back and on their home court nonsense. They played the night before just like we did, their game went longer than ours did and our flight time was shorter than theirs. Other than sleeping in their own beds for a few hours there was no advantage one way or the other. Anything else is just an excuse and a complete and total lack of respect for an opponent that just beat the crap out of us.

    Let’s call it like it is, this was just brutal. Between Roy Hibbert’s inept play and Paul George doing his best imitation of George the Iceman Gervin (if he were blind and afflicted with debilitating arthritis) our night was pretty much shot.

    But before we opine about our wounded hero’s and fret about the upcoming schedule let us take our hats off to the Memphis Grizzlies team. I recognize them; we used to look like that. We dominated the interior, had aggressive rebounding that would lead to fast breaks, shooting inside out and dominating our opponents with smash mouth basketball.

    I’m just glad they are out west and we are done with them.

    Alright now let’s look at our side. Sigh; there just really isn’t a whole lot to point out from our club that is worth saying. Lance Stephenson was once again the only reliable offensive threat we have. I know its en vogue to kick on Lance around here and yes he does hold the ball to long but I’ll be damned if we have anyone else on our team that night in and night out can just score when he needs to.

    I guess for a positive I’ll say that Ian Mahinmi didn’t miss a single shot tonight and Chris Copeland didn’t suck. That’s about it.

    In all honesty this game just came a day later than I expected. This is what I thought the Chicago game would be.

    Psssssssssssssssssssssssssstttttttttttttttttttttt… .I’ll let you in on a secret. Had Scola not shot out of his mind in that Chicago game we might very well have been on the wrong side of the score last night as well. But he did so there’s no need to rehash a win.

    I once again though will state what I said in my first odd thoughts back. We have got to have someone, anyone, hit some outside shots to open up the floor. Scola destroyed the Bulls with it, Mike Miller destroyed us with it and our lack of anyone hitting anything tonight would be comical if it wasn’t so tragic. For the record our team shot 36.5% from the floor. However if you just look to your starting unit between Hill, Hibbert, George & West they shot 29% from the field. Only Lance had a respectable night.

    I don’t care how good our defense is, how well we move without the ball or set screens or any other thing. You are not going to beat an NBA team if 4 of your 5 starters are hitting 29% of their shots.

    Not that we should bother with it but let’s throw some kind of grades out there although I’m tempted to just give a blanket F, but I’ll try and be fair.

    Paul George: D

    Maybe the coaching staff needs to convince him that by hitting a high % of his shots that Herb will kick in and pay for his call girls for the rest of his contract. I wonder if he could score then? Look it’s as simple as this, if he truly is just run out of gas then after this stretch we need to sit him for a few games and let him rest. However its one of those questions I feel compelled to ask though. As young as he is and in as good a shape as he is in why is he being so affected compared to other players in the upper status of the league? Mello, Durrant, DeRozan, Harden & Butler, all play a similar style and all play more min. a game than he does and none of them are going through this prolonged of a slump. Now Paul does play more defense than each of them but he has less offensive responsibility than any of them but Butler as well. Not sure exactly what is wrong here.

    David West: D+

    “Not so bad”, said Zach Randolph. Absolutely pedestrian game on offense and abysmal on defense. Missed rotations on defense a lot and just got worked by Zach all night long.

    Roy Hibbert: F

    The only social media thing I want to hear or better yet see about Roy Hibbert tonight is a picture of him apologizing the Lance Stephenson. After all of Roy’s bluster after the Knicks game how has he handled the offensive load? By going 5-15 from the floor and missing a wide open hook shot that Lance Stephenson had passed him. Also any guess as to what the similarities tonight were between Roy Hibbert and Tyrion Lannister? Neither of them grabbed a rebound for the Indiana Pacers. Since our team seems to be keen about sending photos on instagram and such if I were Lance I’d send Roy a photo of my junk.

    Lance Stephenson: B+

    Came to play, he was the only one other than Mahinmi that did not stink up the joint.

    George Hill: F—

    At the conclusion of the game the only real thing that would have been appropriate would have been for George to stand at mid court bent over holding his ankles as Mike Conley used a giant wooden paddle on his butt and George would have been required to yell “thank you sir may I have another”. This would be akin to how he played defense all game long. Look I have learned to live with the fact that some nights his shots aren’t going to drop, why should he be any different from any other Pacer in that regard and I can accept that he is never going to be confused with Chris Paul as a creator & I even understand when he gets blitzed by having to defend John Wall, Russell Westbrook and other super athletic quick guards. But to be abused my Mike F’n Conley? No disrespect intended to Mike as he has made himself into a very solid point guard, but there is just now way he should be able to get wherever he wants on the floor when George is guarding him. If he hadn’t dished out 5 assist in the 4th quarter he would have had zero for the game to go along with the 4 points he had. Putrid pathetic performance from George and he is better than this.

    Evan Turner: C

    Meh, not bad but certainly not good enough to make any form of difference tonight. Sadly the players he was passing to could not hit the shots he was giving them so unlike vs. the Bulls he didn’t look as good. On nights like this we really need him to be a scorer and 8 points isn’t going to get the job done. He needs to double that, in fact truly we need a solid night in and night out double figure scorer off of the bench.

    Ian Mahinmi: B

    Best big man the Pacers had on the floor all night. That’s not really a compliment btw. However in all fairness to him he hit the one shot he took and hit all of his free throws. However just like every other pacer big he was abused and pushed from stem to stern by the Grizzlies tough interior play.

    Luis Scola: D+

    Not every night can be a night like he had vs. the bulls but honestly we really need him to get back to giving us 9-12 points a night on solid 45% or above shooting. Our team is entirely different when he is hitting that elbow jumper and honestly when he is on we are going to win far more than we lose. He just didn’t have it tonight but it would have been hard to expect that from him.

    Chris Copeland: D+

    He is energetic I’ll give him that. Look our offense is so bad that in the immortal words of General Beringer “I’d **** on a spark plug if I thought it would do any good” so if Frank wants to give him a run at the 3 spot for awhile then really what can it hurt. I’m not sure why him over Butler but whatever, neither is dynamic enough on a nightly basis to make me care. He is a more aggressive defender than you might think he is btw.

    Donald Sloan: D

    Impressed Frank so much that he went with Evan Turner as the backup point in the second half. Did not do much of anything when he was on the floor which in tonight’s game was probably a good thing considering anyone else doing anything went bad on us.

    I’m not even going to bother with the garbage players.

    The only good thing about this game, other than it being over, is that the Heat for whatever reason are just trying to copy us in the W-L column.

    This game in Chicago should be interesting as we all know they will be lying in wait for us.

    Sorry there really isn’t a lot of joy in this post but overall it was just that kind of a game. As long as we maintain the # 1 seed in the East till the end it doesn’t matter but before we get to the playoffs it is vitally important that we work on our offense and our outside shooting.

    Since we decided we'd play like a bunch of emo kids I think its only appropriate we play music befitting their game

    Last edited by Peck; 03-23-2014 at 03:51 AM.


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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    I'm probably alone in this, but I've always felt that Lance would wind up being a better player than PG and I think it's coming very soon. The kid is so consistent and just has a competitive fire that is so rare, I can't help but feel he is gonna be a superstar sooner or later.

    Paul is a great player in his own right, but something is missing with him. The one attribute every superstar has is remarkable consistency. And I think that comes from having an unusual competitive drive. And when I watch the two of them, Lance is the guy who has that, not PG.

    I feel like if Lance was given the same trust and opportunity as Paul, he would produce better results. Maybe not last year, as that was his first real experience. But right now I think he would, hell he practically has been over the last few months as a 2nd option, and next year I feel like he will take over as our offensive focal point.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I know its en vogue to kick on Lance around here and yes he does hold the ball to long but I’ll be damned if we have anyone else on our team that night in and night out can just score when he needs to.
    Prejudice much? Yeah, there's some that like to hit on Lance, so what? But, it not like it's even near the whole board or anything that has that approach...

    For the record I REALLY do like Lance and want Larry to go to great lengths in order to keep him, but I also want him held accountable/somewhat under control and that's the most important area he still has some growing to do, which really is only normal as he's still so young.
    Last edited by Mourning; 03-23-2014 at 03:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Prejudice much? Yeah, there's some that like to hit on Lance, so what? But, it not like it's even near the whole board or anything that has that approach...

    For the record I REALLY do like Lance and want Larry to go to great lengths in order to keep him, but I also want him held accountable/somewhat under control and that's the most important area he still has some growing to do, which really is only normal as he's still so young.
    Not really, I have no more connection to Lance than I do to Roy or Paul or George Hill. In fact the guy in your avatar was the last Pacer that I would say I had a real connection with.

    That being said, yes there are quite a few people who tend to blame him for our offensive disruptions, which he is a part of. But he generally is also our only player who can get a shot out of nothing.


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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Spare me the back to back and on their home court nonsense. They played the night before just like we did, their game went longer than ours did and our flight time was shorter than theirs. Other than sleeping in their own beds for a few hours there was no advantage one way or the other. Anything else is just an excuse and a complete and total lack of respect for an opponent that just beat the crap out of us.
    How is explaining this loss nonsense? The fact is that teams on the second night of a back to back on the road lose very often, much more so than with rest or at home; like it or not, it's an uncontrollable factor. I would need to look up the number, but it is in the low-mid thirties for percentage. The loss can be attributable to multiple things that aren't categorized as solely "excuses" or "total lack of respect". I feel that this is an overreaction and not a very accurate representation of the game. Take away Miller's barrage, the game is even.

    Memphis outplayed Indiana, and the main reason should be that the Grizz are a very good basketball team that have actually been playing this style of basketball longer than us. The best defensive team in the NBA for 2014 does this to teams, especially ones with poor offenses. Neither a surprising or particularly excitable loss for me.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Not really, I have no more connection to Lance than I do to Roy or Paul or George Hill. In fact the guy in your avatar was the last Pacer that I would say I had a real connection with.

    That being said, yes there are quite a few people who tend to blame him for our offensive disruptions, which he is a part of. But he generally is also our only player who can get a shot out of nothing.
    I felt connected to Danny too and the only player I feel that with now is David. But, that started basically since he came here. Before that I was totally ignorant and prejudiced with regards to him.

    Yeah, like I wrote there's a number of people who like to hit or rag on Lance, but nothing out of the ordinary IMHO. It also is somewhat explainable due to that he has the ball in his hands a lot and he initiates a LOT especially for an offguard. Which is how we use him and I think thats good, but when the offense then stalls or there's confusion as to what will happen next when he has the ball... makes it much harder to anticipate for his teammates aswell, while OTOH it also makes him harder to guard and more unpredictable for the opposing defense aswell. So, I see it as a double edged sword.

    But, my point is that because he has the ball in his hands a lot and the offense won't run, except for Lance himself, I find it not illogical that he catches some flak for it. He's still very young and very much in his learning curve. I still don't feel like he's catching a huge amount of flak here, which is basically what you stated. I disagree with that part.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    How is explaining this loss nonsense? The fact is that teams on the second night of a back to back on the road lose very often, much more so than with rest or at home; like it or not, it's an uncontrollable factor. I would need to look up the number, but it is in the low-mid thirties for percentage. The loss can be attributable to multiple things that aren't categorized as solely "excuses" or "total lack of respect". I feel that this is an overreaction and not a very accurate representation of the game. Take away Miller's barrage, the game is even.

    Memphis outplayed Indiana, and the main reason should be that the Grizz are a very good basketball team that have actually been playing this style of basketball longer than us. The best defensive team in the NBA for 2014 does this to teams, especially ones with poor offenses. Neither a surprising or particularly excitable loss for me.
    Aggreed. Back to backs. You win some, but you more often then not lose some. Part of the schedule. I think that Frank should have reverted to a 10-man rotation a little earlier then he has, because some of our players seem more then just a little tired lately. Then when an opposing shooter gets hot the game can go away from you quick. Memphis is a great defensive team next to that, so yeah, it sucks but it's not the end of the world.

    To me the upcoming Chicago and Miami games will be more telling about the state of affairs of our team.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Why didn't Lance get any more looks after his hot start? 9 early points, Vogel subs him out, and didn't score again until the middle of the third. I don't understand why Vogel doesn't like to ride the hot hand.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    That was the worst game I've seen George Hill play. He made no attempt to guard Conley. I've seen better defensive effort at the all star game. I can't believe Frank didn't yank him after the second or third blowby.

    All I can think about is Frank clapping in Hill's face during the Knicks game, trying to wake him up on defense. He's playing like Danny did right before the trade, like he doesn't like the game of basketball and has no interest in playing it.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    I don't think this team should ever be out rebounded by 12 in such a low scoring game. #1 rebounding team and they have no pride in their game on back to backs. I can get not being able to shoot it well. I don't get the lack of effort to chase down these rebounds. All night long the Griz got the 50/50 balls and got out in transition. Thats what made the loss to bad in my opinion. We never gave ourselves a shot to get back in the game that was very winnable. It was never out of reach until the final 4 minutes.

    No pride, where it the heart has the heart of this team gone?

    Peck's example of Memphis's smash mouth style of play is exactly what this team is missing. Hard to be smash mouth when you are *****ing about calls all night long all year long.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    PG shooting % in January (15 games): 41.0%
    PG shooting % in February (12 games: 40.1%
    PG shooting % in March (13 games): 37.5%

    This isn't some slump that's been going on for a few weeks. No, this is three months worth (40 games exactly) of awful shooting percentages. Half of the season. A season that started out with MVP hopes. I like the PG that we saw in the playoffs last year and at the beginning of the season. This was back when he was just playing like Paul George instead of playing like he had to live up to his new top 5 player status. I miss the Paul George who played as if he didn't have any pressure on him and was just letting the game come to him. Once he started this season out on a tear over the first two months, which came on the heels of his phenomenal playoff run last year, everyone obviously started labeling him as one of the top 5 or so players in the game. It was well deserved because he was indeed that good. But it had a devastating effect on his game. Instead of just playing like Paul George, he plays as if he has to constantly live up to being a top 5 player. He shoots too many jumpers, his drives are forced and ugly, and he constantly whines to the refs. He still gets to the free throw line, which is obviously valuable, but everything else with his offense sucks and has sucked for quite a while now.

    By no means do I want to turn this into a "PG vs. Lance" thing, but I often hear people say that Vogel handed the team over to the 23 year olds too quickly. Well IMO, one of the 23 year olds (Lance) has been by far our most consistent player all season and shoots a damn good shooting percentage (49.7%). Sure he holds the ball too long sometimes and without question focuses a bit too much on trying to make the highlight real, but the guy has by and large been a stud all year. There have been a ton of games where he's been the only starter who has showed up to play, like last night. The other 23 year old, PG, has been way more of a detriment over the last couple of months. The coach gives him the green light as if he's Kobe Bryant, but his offense has quite frankly sucked and he just doesn't deserve to hog so much of it when he doesn't produce at an acceptable level. Virtually every time we're in the last play of the quarter, we run some garbage ISO with PG that ends in a clanked jumper off the rim or garbage drive that goes off the backboard/rim. Someone needs to tell this kid that he's not Michael Jordan yet.

    Hibbert has not been that great this season and I'm tired of him playing like such a wuss all the time. This is why it rubbed me the wrong way when he took that veiled shot at Lance. If he again magically morphs into Roy Olajuwon against the Heat like last year, then all will be forgiven around these parts, but his game has by and large been pretty weak this year.

    I liked last year's team and their chip-on-the-shoulder-have-something-to-prove vibe they played with. I hate the vibe of this team right now, which is that of an entitled team who thinks that they should get constant respect from refs and that they can win just by showing up.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 03-23-2014 at 09:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Why didn't Lance get any more looks after his hot start? 9 early points, Vogel subs him out, and didn't score again until the middle of the third. I don't understand why Vogel doesn't like to ride the hot hand.
    That I agree with and there's been a lot of examples of that this year. Remember when Granger hit 3 3's in a row and he pulled him seconds after his third 3 and only played him 18 minutes that night. It's like Frank writes down exactly what time he's going to sub someone and sticks to it. I am a little encouraged in seeing Frank try to use Copeland a little in the last 2 games.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    With that max contract kicking in next year, this 40 game sample size for PG is starting to scare me a bit. He's obviously talented but we can't afford to have two max contract guys playing so inefficiently throughout the year. Roy's gotten a small pass due to his interior defense, but im not liking the idea of a 20% of our cap going to a guy shooting 40%.

    Dont take what I said to the extreme, as I am a PG fan. He just needs to grow a pair and get his head out of his ***. This is slowly becoming a trend.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    ....... PG ............ needs to grow a pair ..........
    Maybe that's what he's trying to prove on TUMBLR.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Roy Hibbert: F

    The only social media thing I want to hear or better yet see about Roy Hibbert tonight is a picture of him apologizing the Lance Stephenson. After all of Roy’s bluster after the Knicks game how has he handled the offensive load? By going 5-15 from the floor and missing a wide open hook shot that Lance Stephenson had passed him. Also any guess as to what the similarities tonight were between Roy Hibbert and Tyrion Lannister? Neither of them grabbed a rebound for the Indiana Pacers. Since our team seems to be keen about sending photos on instagram and such if I were Lance I’d send Roy a photo of my junk.
    So what has happened to Roy this year? Is it effort? Is it confidence? Is it coaching? Has anyone seen any positive signs that Popeye Jones is an effective big man's coach? Are the big men screening better? Rebounding better? Anything? Or are they regressing? Maybe that's a topic for a different thread.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    That was the worst game I've seen George Hill play. He made no attempt to guard Conley. I've seen better defensive effort at the all star game. I can't believe Frank didn't yank him after the second or third blowby.

    All I can think about is Frank clapping in Hill's face during the Knicks game, trying to wake him up on defense. He's playing like Danny did right before the trade, like he doesn't like the game of basketball and has no interest in playing it.
    Well hey, at least he's in love. <3

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by tora tora View Post
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    Well hey, at least he's in love. <3
    Nobody's going to love him back if he keeps playing like this.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
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    So what has happened to Roy this year? Is it effort? Is it confidence? Is it coaching? Has anyone seen any positive signs that Popeye Jones is an effective big man's coach? Are the big men screening better? Rebounding better? Anything? Or are they regressing? Maybe that's a topic for a different thread.
    Remember last year when for 90% of the season at least half the board was complaining that we overpaid for Roy and he wasn't worth a "max" contract?

    Remember in the playoffs when the game slowed down and size became more of a factor, there was rest between every game and most of the board realized that Hibbert just has problems dealing with the regular season schedule? PD was filled with posters suddenly thinking he was worth his contract.

    I don't think anything happened to Roy, he just has the type of stamina you would expect from a 300 pound man with asthma.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Also would like to point out that we faced the two best defenses besides ours in the league the past two nights. The effort was there, we just couldn't score. If our defense had been better we could have won, but our offense was going to looked tired and ugly against the Grizzlies no matter what.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    WaPaul George might want to watch The Natural.
    Also I can not think the last time I saw a Wargames reference. Perhaps the Pacers need
    the W.O.P.R. to figure out what is wrong.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    That was the worst game I've seen George Hill play. He made no attempt to guard Conley. I've seen better defensive effort at the all star game. I can't believe Frank didn't yank him after the second or third blowby.

    All I can think about is Frank clapping in Hill's face during the Knicks game, trying to wake him up on defense. He's playing like Danny did right before the trade, like he doesn't like the game of basketball and has no interest in playing it.
    3 more years worth 8 mil each. but don't worry he will play 1 great game in every 10-20 games and people will be like "where are the hill haters?"

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    And I am not certain why Peck believes that Mike Conley should not be getting anywhere on the floor he wants to "when George Hill is guarding him." I don't mean to flame the situation, but the way George Hill defended last night, I believe even Sarunas would have feasted! As stated, Conley has made himself into a very respectable point guard. Hill should at least respect that and appear to give some effort. Very depressing when one player, or the team, thinks they can play on reputation.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by special ed View Post
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    And I am not certain why Peck believes that Mike Conley should not be getting anywhere on the floor he wants to "when George Hill is guarding him." I don't mean to flame the situation, but the way George Hill defended last night, I believe even Sarunas would have feasted! As stated, Conley has made himself into a very respectable point guard. Hill should at least respect that and appear to give some effort. Very depressing when one player, or the team, thinks they can play on reputation.
    Because when he wants to, George Hill can be a very effective defender. There are some players that I understand he just can't physically match, but Mike Conley is not one of them. Again that is not a shot at Conley, he has made himself into a far better player than I ever dreamed he'd be.

    But he is not athletically superior to George and skill wise they are similar. Watson not being able to play might be an issue here as George may just be tired, but I can't put my finger on why it was so bad during this game. I hate to say effort because I don't know that we can judge that all that well but I also wouldn't blame someone if they said it.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Thanks...I understand better.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts: Mauled by a bear

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Also would like to point out that we faced the two best defenses besides ours in the league the past two nights. The effort was there, we just couldn't score. If our defense had been better we could have won, but our offense was going to looked tired and ugly against the Grizzlies no matter what.
    We held the Grizzlies to 82 on a bad shooting night in their own gym, on a B2B whose first opponent was Chicago. Nothing to be ashamed about. We just need to shoot better, and that mostly comes from fatigue. We had one bad quarter, 2nd quarter where we gave up 24 pts. Otherwise, this is a win. At least we didn't lose to the Pelicans who were missing Eric Gordon, Ryan Anderson, Jrue Holiday, and their starting center Jason Smith.

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