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Thread: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

  1. #26
    Member Downtown Bang!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Roy needs to own his part in this as well. Part of the issue with the ball stopping has been the perimeter guys waiting on him to establish position and present himself for the catch. Roy is not good at competing for post position and I'd get frustrated with him too. Couple that with the fact he can also be weak with the ball after the catch and it becomes tough to justify making him a big part of the offense as a traditional low box threat. Rik Smits circa 1994 was fricken Robert Parish compared to what Roy is bringing to the table in that area right now.

    Disclaimer for the ones that need it: Roy is a top 3 defensive center and an underated rebounder. I love having Roy as a Pacer.

    I also think a lot of this is on the coaches. They need to see Roy's limitations offensively and get him his low post looks off of motion and after setting screens for players moving through the lane. Make the guy defending Roy worry about other assignments during the play rather than just being able to focus on pushing him out of position. Would also help the fact that moving the ball in general is a huge issue for this team.

    Lot's of people keep saying we need to play inside out. I agree but if that means moving three guys to one side of the floor and trying to let Hill, Lance or PG play catch with Hibbert like Magic & Kareem used to do then I'm out on that deal. 3/4 of those posessions will end up in a bad shot or a turnover.
    Last edited by Downtown Bang!; 03-20-2014 at 10:07 AM.

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  3. #27
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Lance was our best player last night and has had many good games for us this year. I think that its slowly becoming obvious that Lance's game rubs some of the other players the wrong way. I could be wrong but does anyone else get the idea that maybe Lance doesn't exactly fit in with the rest of the team. Im obviously not in the locker room, but between these comments and the body language of some of the other starters, maybe they are a bit tired of Lance's act at the moment.

    For those trying to compare Lance and Paul, Paul has earned a pass right now. Idk if that's okay or not, but the guy who was All NBA last year, and will probably be All NBA this year, he has proven himself a bit more than Lance has right now.

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  5. #28
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Lance needs to be our primary ball handler. Lance needs to run the offense. When he does, our offense does well. (Sure, he makes a mistake now and then, but the over is better than the under.) When Hill runs the offense, nothing happens. When PG runs it, it's either a nice shot, a bad percentage shot, or a turnover (more of the the last two than the first).

    If the players had more practice with Lance running the offense, they wouldn't be so unfamiliar with what's going to happen. (For instance, when Roy get's the ball from Lance in his hands, he would learn to squeeze--just kidding, couldn't resist.)

    This is a problem that will go from bad to worse unless Vogel steps in and does the obvious in terms of what's best for the offense. I have a feeling I know Bird's opinion.

    Another twist: If Lance isn't allowed to run the offense—the obvious best choice for this team—I don't see him wanting to come back next year. Some of you might like that idea, but it would be a disaster for the Pacers, imo.

    Idk if im in the minority or not, but our offense seems to be most stagnant when Lance initiates the offense. He pounds the air out of the rock, doing crossovers but not going anywhere. We normally end up being up against the shot clock as well.

    Again maybe I'm in the minority but thats what I see. I feel this is why Lance isn't getting the ball nearly as much as earlier in the year.

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  7. #29
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Idk if im in the minority or not, but our offense seems to be most stagnant when Lance initiates the offense. He pounds the air out of the rock, doing crossovers but not going anywhere. We normally end up being up against the shot clock as well.

    Again maybe I'm in the minority but thats what I see. I feel this is why Lance isn't getting the ball nearly as much as earlier in the year.
    Lance has argued that the Knicks removed his passing lanes last night, so it's at least encouraging that he recognizes that he fell short in getting the ball to others.

    I still think he's too quick to jump into iso mode vs. a focus on facilitation.
    Last edited by docpaul; 03-20-2014 at 10:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Romsey31 View Post
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    No he's not. He just takes too much threes Imo. And bad shots. I'm sure he takes more threes a game than reggae did.
    Seems to me teams are giving him the three point shot, and cutting off his drives

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  10. #31
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    I'm thinking some of the other starters are wanting to play one way, and Lance is a player that tends to play better (individually speaking) when he can do his own thing without much organization.

    I've said this in the past but our team became elite by playing a specific style or play. "Smashmouth" meant dominating defensively and on the boards while pounding the ball inside and sharing the ball offensively. It was an ugly, but a very disciplined approach to the game.

    Lance's game is more about creativity, free flowing, and individuality. I just wonder if there's some growing disconnect between the clash in two styles.

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  12. #32

    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    I think our offense is most stagnant when George Hill pounds the ball and doesn't initiate the offense until there's around 11 seconds on the shot clock. That happens far more frequently than Lance's overdribbling and usually results in us fighting the shot clock and getting off a bad shot.

    Count which of these happens more in the next game.

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  14. #33
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by fwpacerfan View Post
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    "I usually don't run the court like that but I said, if I have to be the first big guy down the court to get the ball, I'll start (running) to try and change it," Hibbert said. "Usually I'm not a sprinting type but tonight, I tried to do it."

    So basically Roy said that he doesn't usually hustle but since they were losing he decided to try that to spur the team? That speaks volumes imho. Hibbert has been a huge part of the problem lately, as has Lance and PG. Lance and PG try to do it themselves but they have had to at times because Hibbert is getting shoved out of the paint. Last night in the 2nd half Roy decided to put forth some effort and it got the team back in the game. The 1st half? Chandler was killing Hibbert, out rebounding him, keeping out of the paint.
    One of the hardest things for a team to guard is a center who runs the court to get early position. Remember Alonzo, he made a living doing that. Roy needs to do that all the time

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Idk if im in the minority or not, but our offense seems to be most stagnant when Lance initiates the offense. He pounds the air out of the rock, doing crossovers but not going anywhere. We normally end up being up against the shot clock as well.

    Again maybe I'm in the minority but thats what I see. I feel this is why Lance isn't getting the ball nearly as much as earlier in the year.
    I appreciate the civil and reasoned response. (Not that it's not characteristic of you, but it's not always characteristic on PD with this subject.)

    Heck, I see it the other way. And it seems to be Lance has been running the offense more and more as the season has progressed. Two eyeballs seeing opposite things. I hate to call in the stats guys, but maybe I have to.
    .

    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  17. #35

    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Lance had a good game last night but so it doesn't' seem fair to call him out for this one game. However, Lance has been close to a net negative since his name started coming up for a possible all star selection. He needs to take a lesser scoring role and become more of a distributor while Roy needs to take a bigger role. We just can't afford to have 2 wing players shooting 30+ jump shots per game. Paul has also fallen in love with the 3 way too much. The bottom line is our offense needs to go back to what worked for us at the beginning of the season. When we play the inside out game and focus on defense, we are by far the best team in the NBA.
    Lance Stephenson isn't the one shooting a ton of jumpshots.

  18. #36

    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    So Roy has one good game and now he calls out his teammates on offense
    More like 1 good quarter, he's been terrible for a month.

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  20. #37
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    So Roy has one good game and now he calls out his teammates on offense.....that's great.

    Lance really has problems gaining respect. Look at the numbers. Lance leads the team in FG%, shooting 6% higher than Paul, but Paul has the green light and Hibbert's respect because he earned it.

    All of the numbers point to Lance doing as well on offense as any Pacer, and he's leading the team in assists. And from the eye test, our starting offense runs better as soon as it's initiated through Lance. But his teammates complain more about him than any other player. Why?
    Our offense has never been about assists. When you run a power post attack, assists are minimal. Assists can be a misleading stat if not properly analyzed.

    Lance averages more assists than Hill, but nobody would believe he is a more willing passer thanHill.

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  22. #38
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    I agree with someone's who posted about the hesitations from other guys when Lance brings up the ball and starts hop scotching with the ball in ONE PLACE for what seems to feel like 5 minutes. He hesitate dribbles so much with his stagnant crossover that whenever the big man seems to come up they hesitate to set the pick because Lance sometimes goes the other way. Yeah he puts up decent stats, BUT HE DID THAT BEFORE TOO. Before the showing off and cross-overs became overkill he was doing just fine in the scheme of things. I miss watching the Pacers style of smash mouth basketball. Playing inside out was our thing. I feel like George Hill is hardly ever involved at all, I mean, doesn't it just feel that way? I don't remember the last time George Hill passed the ball inside to Roy or David and their double team allowed the simple pass out to George Hill for the 3 pointer. I know people knock GH, but the team functioned better when it stuck with the game plan. Now it's Lance pushing the ball up I'd say 85% of the time and he makes passes after way too much dribbling. PG has to create his own shot which he mostly sucks at. I feel like the wings are guarded so much easier now with the simple fact that we don't play from the inside. Our big guys can command double teams to open things up, but it doesn't seem to settle in with the team.

    Specifically last night I remember Lance and David West getting the switch. David West commanded position over JR Smith and Lance looked at him and then jacked up a pointless 3 pointer early into the shot clock. When the f*** did our basketball IQ get so low or maybe they're right....our wings have become way to selfish (not including GH).

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  24. #39
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I think our offense is most stagnant when George Hill pounds the ball and doesn't initiate the offense until there's around 11 seconds on the shot clock. That happens far more frequently than Lance's overdribbling and usually results in us fighting the shot clock and getting off a bad shot.

    Count which of these happens more in the next game.

    Maybe you're right, but we've yet to hear the Pacers coaching staff nor the players talk about that being an issue with GHill. We have heard them talk about it as an issue with Lance. I think their feelings towards the tendancies of their teammates carries a lot of weight.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  26. #40
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    I'll stick the lightning rod up in the air: I don't want the Pacers to pay Lance big money for multiple years.

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  28. #41
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gold View Post
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    Lance Stephenson isn't the one shooting a ton of jumpshots.
    He shot 7 threes last night. 10 out of his 16 shots were jumpshots.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  30. #42
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    He shot 7 threes last night. 10 out of his 16 shots were jumpshots.
    THIS SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN

  31. #43
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    THIS SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN
    Agreed. Sad thing is, Lance has shot 21 threes over the last 3 games. 32 over the last 6 games.

    He's only had 5 games over 5+ 3pts attempts all season, prior to this stretch.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  33. #44
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Hibbert needs to call out PG. This guy has reverted into a chucker. He calls an ISO set every time he gets the ball. Won't run the curl screen under the basket to get the ball in rhythm to make an instinctual play. Its the same thing that happened to Danny the year after he made the all-star team. Will not work to get open on offense.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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  35. #45
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I think our offense is most stagnant when George Hill pounds the ball and doesn't initiate the offense until there's around 11 seconds on the shot clock. That happens far more frequently than Lance's overdribbling and usually results in us fighting the shot clock and getting off a bad shot.

    Count which of these happens more in the next game.
    OK, or maybe George Hill is trying to run the play that is called waiting on the players to get open. Lance just goes and disregards the play.

    Most likely George Hills plays involve others, whereas Lance's plays involve him running a quick pick and roll. You would have to watch the tape of the game to determine for sure


    Regardless it seems the players have a problem with Lance to some degree. And whether the players should have a problem with PG or GH or DW or anyone is almost irrelevant, if his teammates have a problrem with lance that is what matters.

    Maybe all this came to a head after Granger was traded. Traded for another guy who likes to have the ball and shoot a lot. (Turner). Maybe a few of the players were hoping Granger would be there when it counted. Just a thought
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-20-2014 at 11:07 AM.

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  37. #46
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'll stick the lightning rod up in the air: I don't want the Pacers to pay Lance big money for multiple years.
    I won't disagree on this. I'm starting to think Vogel isn't the right coach for Lance. If Vogel can't get Lance to stop shooting so many perimeter shots and get him back to what makes him an asset to this team, then I think we have to choose between keeping Lance and getting a new coach that will give Lance direction or going another direction instead of Lance and that doesn't give us a lot of options.

  38. #47
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yeah, I'd prefer to throw him in the 4th row, just like his passes. Or maybe underneath his dribbling. That'll flatten him good.
    Lance had 3 turnovers last night. PG had 4. Lance was better in every way than Paul last night, yet Roy gives Paul a pass? How does this help the locker room at all?

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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  40. #48
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    He shot 7 threes last night. 10 out of his 16 shots were jumpshots.
    Paul took 9 3s. 14 of his 17 shots were jumpers.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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  42. #49
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    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Lance had 3 turnovers last night. PG had 4. Lance was better in every way than Paul last night, yet Roy gives Paul a pass? How does this help the locker room at all?
    1) It doesn't.
    2) This isn't about last night. This has clearly been festering.

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  44. #50

    Default Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    I think the reasons are his youth, not enough strength and he has a troubled personal life.
    Plus trying to be the teams best defender and offensively player will take a toll also.
    What's this about?


    As for Roy, if he wants to look at trends, he should be objective. March stats:

    Paul George - 40% FG, 29% 3P
    Lance Stephenson - 47% FG, 33% 3P
    Roy Hibbert - 48% FG, 4.5 REB


    Come on, son. He was outplayed by Bynum and Mahinmi in consecutive nights. I know he wants to make it all about the offense, but his defense has slipped and his rebounding speaks for itself. It's almost unthinkably bad. I would have lost a substantial amount of money if someone asked me to bet whether an uninjured Hibbert would average under 5 boards per game for 3 weeks.

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