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Thread: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

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    Default Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/famil...undrum-hibbert

    by Mark Montieth

    Roy Hibbert grabbed the rebound of Paul George's missed jumper, went up strong in traffic, scored, and drew a foul with 1:23 left in the game.

    It was a big play. His subsequent free throw and three-point play would put the Pacers up nine points over Philadelphia, all but clinching their 50th victory. But Hibbert didn't celebrate. Didn't even seem happy. He walked away from the basket stone-faced, ignoring George Hill's outstretched hand, a man lost in his thoughts.

    Hibbert offered the same demeanor in the locker room afterward. While his teammates enjoyed the 99-90 win with smiles and laughter, he sat in front of his locker in the corner of the room, leaning back in his chair, still stone-faced, his chin propped in his hand, staring into space.

    What's up, Roy?

    “I just haven't been playing the best,” he said after scored eight points and grabbing five rebounds. “I have to do better. But we're winning and I'm happy for that. It was just good to see one of those baskets go in.”

    Seems there's a clue there: “... good to see one of those baskets go in.” Hibbert would like to see more of his baskets going in, but that would require more shot attempts than the eight he got on Monday. So, when he got that rebound basket his thought process appeared to be something along the lines of, “Sure, I can shoot if I grab an offensive rebound, but what about all the other times?”

    This is a familiar dilemma for Hibbert. He averages 9.3 shots per game, less than all the starters except George Hill. He'd like more, yet he doesn't want to disrupt a winning flow. So, he'll try to keep his focus on defending and rebounding. But even the rebounding hasn't gone all that well lately. The five he got in 27 minutes on Monday are pretty much the norm for him lately.

    Pacers coach Frank Vogel came to Hibbert's defense before the game, praising him for blocking out opposing centers and creating rebound opportunities for his teammates, but Hibbert wasn't finding solace in that, either. He'd like to touch the ball then, too. Get some stats there as well.

    “I'm not seeing the ball for rebounds, either,” he said. “That's still frustrating (for me), to be clearing my man out and still not getting boards.

    “But I'm OK. I'm not scoring, but .. I just have to be good at what I'm supposed to be good at, defense and closing out games.”

    Hibbert said he's talked with Vogel about changing the substitution pattern so that he can play more with the second unit, and therefore have a larger role in the offense. But then again, he doesn't want to demand a change when the team still has the best record in the Eastern Conference, clinging to the top seed for the playoffs. But then again he's an All-Star center with a near-max contract, and feels he should be contributing more statistically. But then again, he probably has no choice in the matter.

    “I can't be selfish,” he said. “Somebody has to sacrifice. I have to sacrifice for this team. Would anybody like to get 15 shots a game? Yeah. You're a human being and you have feelings, but you have to play through it and do what's best for the team.”

    Hibbert's mild beef can be viewed as either a chicken or an egg because of the either-or conundrum it poses. Would he play better, in all areas, if he had a greater part in the offense? Or does he need to become more of an offensive threat before getting that role?

    Fact is, Hibbert has been outplayed by his backup in the past four games, whether it was Ian Mahinmi, who had 10 points and five rebounds in 19 active minutes on Monday in his return from a two-game asbsence due to a rib injury, or Andrew Bynum in the two games he's played, or even emergency center Lavoy Allen. Those three reserves have combined to average 11.5 points and 7 rebounds in 18 minutes over the last four games, while Hibbert has averaged 7.5 points and 5.5 rebounds in 30 minutes.

    “I think he's just got to play his way through it,” Vogel said. “He hasn't been terrible, but he hasn't been dominant either. He just has to play through it.”

    The Pacers usually make a point of getting Hibbert shots early in games, and then tend to go away from him. Getting more shots for him as games progress will have to be a collective effort, one that includes his ability to get open for shots, and hit more of the ones that he gets.

    “He's got to get himself in a better rhythm,” West said. “And we have to do a better job of getting the ball to him where he's comfortable.”

    It figures to be an ongoing story line for the Pacers. But one they can win with.
    Last edited by BillS; 03-18-2014 at 08:15 PM. Reason: add author
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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    The way some people act around here they would be ok if we traded Roy in the offseason.

    Roy's primary job is to protect the paint, which he does an outstanding job at. Roy's job is not to make shots, or get 10 rebounds a game, it is to contest shots. Would I like Roy to hit more of his attempts, sure. Would I like George Hill to get more dunks? Sure. The fact is though, as long as Roy is protecting the rim I will be content with his play.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    The way some people act around here they would be ok if we traded Roy in the offseason.

    Roy's primary job is to protect the paint, which he does an outstanding job at. Roy's job is not to make shots, or get 10 rebounds a game, it is to contest shots. Would I like Roy to hit more of his attempts, sure. Would I like George Hill to get more dunks? Sure. The fact is though, as long as Roy is protecting the rim I will be content with his play.
    I think you're painting the wrong picture.

    To start, no one here wants Roy traded(except for maybe that one dude who I typically ignore). I think its more the fact that we recognize IF we are going to beat Miami, Roy Hibbert is going to have to play a HUGE role on offense as well as defense. Roy Hibbert has not been a good offensive player all season and its gotten to the point where he is a liability on the floor. I love Roy, but its frustrating when he is capable of so much more. He talks about doing whats best for the team, but whats best for the team is him being a huge focal point of the offense. Thats what this team needs. Roy Hibbert. As of now, Hibbert protects the rim and offers very little else to this team on the court. Thats not me knocking Roy, I love the dude and his defense is remarkable. BUT, he doesn't score, he doesn't rebound, he doesn't pass. He defends, thats it. We need more from him for this team to find the level of success we all expect.

    Now, I know Roy Hibbert not getting touches is more on Vogel than anyone, maybe Stephenson and George a little? However, Hibbert needs to demand the ball. He needs to make himself a force to be reckoned with. He is capable of it, we've all seen it. If his goal is to do what is best for the team as he claims, he will get back to the player we had last year in the playoffs - not this 8 point, 5 rebound player that we have grown accustomed to seeing.
    Last edited by Dr. Awesome; 03-18-2014 at 08:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Hibbert's biggest issue is when he gets down on himself. He's capable of playing better and IMO this is all mental.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Last year Roy really picked it up with less then 15 games remaining and kept that level of play throughout the playoffs. PG seemed to have a lot of bad games during that same period so Roy really carried the team in most of those games. I'm hoping he'll get pumped up thinking of the playoffs very soon but it's hard to tell what makes Roy tick. I still feel confident that he'll be the same force in the playoffs that he was last year.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    He talks a good story, but anybody who watches the games can tell that he doesn't fight hard enough for position on the offensive end, nor does he go all out for rebounds. Not only that, but on offense he catches that ball just outside the elbow and chucks that jumper if he is just a little bit open. That or he actually tries to drive it in and picks up an offensive foul every time. So if he wants to get better on offense he can stop flaring out to the Elbow to make himself available for that pass. Because what happens afterward is terrible.
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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Last year Roy really picked it up with less then 15 games remaining and kept that level of play throughout the playoffs. PG seemed to have a lot of bad games during that same period so Roy really carried the team in most of those games. I'm hoping he'll get pumped up thinking of the playoffs very soon but it's hard to tell what makes Roy tick. I still feel confident that he'll be the same force in the playoffs that he was last year.
    The GSW game and the fight with David Lee was what ticked him off last season.
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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    There is a reason Roy does not get more touches...The number one reason is he does not come up with offensive rebounds besides being the tallest player on the court at all times.. Roy is also not getting touches by design... At the beginning of the year Hibbert was being feed in the post.. He show horrible for a Center slowed the offense down and rarely got good post position.. Vogel has wised up and decided not to feed Roy as much in the post, and who can blame him..Roy is not an effective post player!!!!! There has never been a player in NBA history who is considered good because the only thing they did was protect the paint.. At least grab a couple of offensive rebounds get some put backs... do something.... He is being outplayed by backups who play half of the minutes he does...4 out the last 6 games he has had the least rebounds of any of the starters...G HILL included...I know most of you are area 55ers and feel obligated to defend a grown man who makes more than anyone on the team...No team tells a player here is 15 million dollars, all I want you to do is protect the paint, dont rebound, dont score, get push to the floor all games by guards,, and ow yea never dunk the basketball... Good Players play good...Bad ones play bad,,,Roy is just not good...

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    We need to get him more involved offensively. One of our team's biggest strengths is that we have both him and West in the frontcourt with both guys able to go inside or hit a midrange jumper if left open. Some of it is that our guys still aren't all that great at making crisp low post entry feeds, but the other part is that Roy could do a better job of establishing inside position and commanding for the ball. Either way, I think it's a mistake to have a 7'2" center with a soft touch and limit his shot attempts. If we can get Roy going a bit more, I think it would open up shots for everyone else.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    ...

    Get out of here dude... There are indeed reasons that Roy does not get touches, and not because he does not get enough ORebs... First we dont have anyone who can feed the post which causes ball reversals putting Roy on the opposite side of the floor... Sure he does not demand the ball and that is a legitimate gripe, but you didn't list that... Roy is not a bad, he is simply OK offensively... but I would also say that we did MUCH better as a team earlier in the year when we fed Roy to begin games... No that we have gotten away from that, we have gotten away from being a dominant team... We did much better at the end of last year when we fed Roy... I contend that we will again be a much better team when they make the consious effort the feed the post...
    Last edited by bballpacen; 03-19-2014 at 12:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    I know most of you are area 55ers
    That's not even close to the truth. Well, your whole post is pretty far from the truth in general (in my opinion) but this part stands out a lot.
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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Even though we all would like to see Roy get a few more touches down low I am very happy with the way he has played so far this season. When we play good team defense Roy is a huge difference maker around the rim. and makes other teams rely on jump shots for most of their possessions.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    I've been focusing on Roy the last couple games on offense. Anyone notice there's times he gets good position in the paint calls for it and by the time a wing actually notices and tries to get him the ball (if they ever do notice) he has to leave the position or get three seconds called on him (Once Lance was dancing looked like he was trying to decide to either pass to Roy or shoot, and did neither and Roy actually did get the 3 sec.)? Also, Roy tends to get better position when the play isn't obvious and in your face that we are going to him...

    Quinn even pointed out in some cases the play is there for the Pacers, but it takes them 2 seconds too long to make the play, and by then the flow is off and the play isn't there. It affects everyone and probably why our offense as a whole has been a bit off lately.

    I really think there is a couple of simple things that could help our offense as a whole.
    -Bird's theory of no over dribbling. After a couple dribbles you need to pass or shoot the ball.
    -Better off the ball movement. At times the ball gets to the post and there is no movement and there is no pass out options available. As well when PG and Lance are handling the ball, sometimes they may make better choices if they have more options b/c teammates are actually moving/cutting and not jut watching them. Better options = less forcing.
    - Last but not least. KISS! Stop going for the fancy play and jut get the job done. A fancy pass is useless if your accuracy is off and throws off the rhythm of your teammate (or off the lower leg of your teammate).

    These aren't crazy demands either. We have done them all before... and each has been a focus. We just need to get back to doing our basics and being consistent at it. Do that as a team, and then individual performances will get better.
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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffg-body View Post
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    Even though we all would like to see Roy get a few more touches down low I am very happy with the way he has played so far this season. When we play good team defense Roy is a huge difference maker around the rim. and makes other teams rely on jump shots for most of their possessions.
    Yes, Roy is such a game changer for us on defense.

    Is there somewhere that keeps track of challenged shots leading to misses? If so, I'd have to think Roy has the runaway lead of that stat in the NBA. I lose count of how many times players try to shoot over him and they miss throughout the course of a game.
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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    This thread is already way off base. nobody wants to deal Hibbs, but at the same time no one wants to really state the obvious. I agreed with MillerTime in many of his remarks. Hibbs does slow the offense down, and for a big man I do believe he is average at offensive rebounding. maybe my standards are higher than most and consider Jeff Foster one of the best darn offensive rebounders ever.

    to get this back on track. I think its on Hibbs to become more effective. He stated himself below, and his demeanor was clear vs Philly that he was frustrated. I remember the exact play Montieth is referring to. Hibbs didn't celebrate because he struggled, and has been against the JV eastern conference srrubs. (not only him but overall BnG have been coasting or less effective.. )

    I just haven't been playing the best, he said after scored eight points and grabbing five rebounds. I have to do better. But we're winning and I'm happy for that. It was just good to see one of those baskets go in.

    I truly believe Hibbs watching Bynum be so effective in the post has got him striving for more offensively. just like it did with Mahnimi, Hibbs realizes he has to raise his game as well.

    I don't know how to state this w/o coming across as detrimental to Hibbs,, and honestly its not truly relevant because Hibbs is who he is at this point. I don't see him ever becoming a Patrick Ewing down low, and that's alright for now. Hibbs is more Dikembe Mutumbo than Ewing/Alonzo.

    However, Hibbs does have nice touch, and he is more effective shooting those 10fts with his feet set than he is posting up alas a Bynum. I see Hibbs more as a Rik Smits in that regard, because Rik was deadly on the face up from 10ft. Roy definitely has a nice touch which elevates his offense.

    I don't know if Bill Walton is the right choice but I do wish we had a bigs coach for Roy, been thinking that since the Walton apprenticeship.

    I just think ive accepted that again, Roy is more Dikembe than he ever will be Ewing.

    I would like to see two things Roy develop at some pt in his career.

    a power dribble so that he can balance himself, because when he tries to score of offensive boards or on a direct entry pass , he has difficult time with footwork and balance. its the reason he gets a board and cannot go back up immediately. if he could power dribble one time and balance himself he would be so much more effective.

    secondly, pump fakes, he has gotten better recently.. but still does not effectively pump fake.


    I love big Roy as much as any pacer fan, but he will likely never develop a true post up game. I still believe he is a helluva good center though. Joakim Noah is a guy I never thought would be good offensively but considering where he was his rook season to now, he really has improved... so maybe Roy can figure it out sooner than later on the offensive end of the court.

    another factor is he does not pass well out of double teams,,, which creates turnovers.


    its strange Hibbert turns into RoyOlajuwon vs the Heat but against anyone else its more Dikembe Mutumbo.


    Roy can shoot, he just cant get effective low post position on the block. One gripe I got is I don't believe Roy has effective body control. ie,, doenst know how to take advantage of his 7'2 frame.

    I say this only because ive seen guys who are 6'4 play like they are 6'10. by that I mean post dudes up that are much taller and still be able to score. which is why perhaps its so frustrating seeing Roy struggle in the post when he is 7'2 and just can hook shot over everybody if he just getting deeper penetration or power dribble/pump fake more at times.

    anyone that doesn't understand what I mean watch Bynum. dude will collect the ball with two hands, then take a power dribble and base/root himself down either for a dunk or effective hook.

    I just hope Hibbs doesn't opt out of his contract for more money because @ 18 M or whatever the number is we cannot afford a guy with limited offensive game.

    I just don't care about the boo hoooing,, a guy doesn't have to be effective in the pts column to affect the game in a variety of ways. Roy obviously figured that out defensively,,, and irrelevant of shot attempts he could defintilely try to become a more dominant offensive rebounder. alas a joakim noah who knows his role is not to shoot, so he goes and gets on the boards hard,, like a jeff foster would do.

    Bynum killed it the other nite and there is no doubt this team offensively struggles at times so when Roy knows he is not getting a shot, he should be dominating the offensive glass esp against these weak Eastern Conference teams. maybe that's a little harsh but I think the excuse of lance stealing rebounds or roy not pounding the offensive boards is a weak excuse when Bynum comes in here in limited minutes and hits double figures in boards.

    its on Roy to up his offensive IQ cause he has got all the tools necessary to dominate in the post and has a great touch for a big man.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    -Roy has bad balance so his shot is easy to throw off for a strong defender with height.

    -He doesn't have great hands so you can't throw it to him consistently on a roll to the rim.

    Not really sure how you could fix either of those, which means he has to work way too hard to get buckets. He doesn't have the body type or athleticism to be a great, consistent post player. He's got a nice enough touch to score against smaller centers like Chris Anderson, and when he slows down and takes his time in the post he's actually pretty agile.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Its all about matchups in the NBA. Roy is a great match up against alot of teams. His time will come, he just has to understand its not going to be consistent offensive production for him. Great thing about defense is that it doesn't have an off night. Everything this team does on that end is predicated on him. That's a pretty big deal. I hope he re realizes that.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    The way some people act around here they would be ok if we traded Roy in the offseason.

    Roy's primary job is to protect the paint, which he does an outstanding job at. Roy's job is not to make shots, or get 10 rebounds a game, it is to contest shots. Would I like Roy to hit more of his attempts, sure. Would I like George Hill to get more dunks? Sure. The fact is though, as long as Roy is protecting the rim I will be content with his play.
    If he needs to score he will, but he knows he doesn't have to be the main guy
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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    If he needs to score he will, but he knows he doesn't have to be the main guy
    I'd buy into that if he was shooting > 46%.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by bballpacen View Post
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    Get out of here dude... There are indeed reasons that Roy does not get touches, and not because he does not get enough ORebs... First we dont have anyone who can feed the post which causes ball reversals putting Roy on the opposite side of the floor... Sure he does not demand the ball and that is a legitimate gripe, but you didn't list that... Roy is not a bad, he is simply OK offensively... but I would also say that we did MUCH better as a team earlier in the year when we fed Roy to begin games... No that we have gotten away from that, we have gotten away from being a dominant team... We did much better at the end of last year when we fed Roy... I contend that we will again be a much better team when they make the consious effort the feed the post...
    The fact that we don't feed him the ball is the #1 reason he's struggled on offense. I see plenty of times when he's open but either Lance or Paul chuck up a shot. Big men don't bring the ball up so if our guards don't try to get it to him he can't score. The difference in our offense now vs early in the year has been the way Vogel lets Paul and Lance dominate the ball. The Paul and Lance show isn't as good as the team ball we played earlier. Vogel has talked about making an effort to get Roy the ball in the paint but it usually last for 1 game then goes away. Most coaches would work their offense from the inside out if they had a player like Hibbert. I think Roy needs to be more aggressive in demanding the ball but that only goes so far if Lance thinks he controls the offense.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Hibbert's last game was disturbing no matter how you try to dress it up. Frank even yanked him for it. That about says it all. Hope he gets it together from here.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    PG is a TERRIBLE passer, we all know this so the whole PG/Hibbert inside out game that we should be watching every night is impossible because of that. Is that Roy's fault?

    If we had picked up Andre Miller or some other real PG Hibbert would be getting more touches.

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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by tadscout View Post
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    Quinn even pointed out in some cases the play is there for the Pacers, but it takes them 2 seconds too long to make the play, and by then the flow is off and the play isn't there. It affects everyone and probably why our offense as a whole has been a bit off lately.
    This is huge.

    The other thing that slows it down is that when Roy gets the ball he is usually not supposed to move until someone comes through on the baseline. That often also takes a long time to happen, further bogging down the offense. It is a play I really hate, but it is what is designed to happen.

    I won't say Roy is capable of making lightning-fast decisions on offense, but I think the combination of slow decision-making from the wing and the way playes are set up makes him look worse than he is.
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  42. #24
    PD Magician Magic P's Avatar
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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    PG is a TERRIBLE passer, we all know this so the whole PG/Hibbert inside out game that we should be watching every night is impossible because of that. Is that Roy's fault?

    If we had picked up Andre Miller or some other real PG Hibbert would be getting more touches.
    No it is not Roy's fault PG is a terrible passer. Is it PG's fault though that Roy misses point blank shots at the rim? Even when Roy does get position he's so soft any respectable defender can knock him off balance because Roy has terrible control of his lower body. You can blame PG and the front office if you want to but any one with eyes to see can see Ian and Bynum are playing better than Hibbert.

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  44. #25
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    Default Re: Familiar Conundrum For Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic P View Post
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    No it is not Roy's fault PG is a terrible passer. Is it PG's fault though that Roy misses point blank shots at the rim? Even when Roy does get position he's so soft any respectable defender can knock him off balance because Roy has terrible control of his lower body. You can blame PG and the front office if you want to but any one with eyes to see can see Ian and Bynum are playing better than Hibbert.
    This is what I've been screaming for awhile. I even advocated that Lance and PG does get into hero ball sometimes, but Roy still gets pushed out by any player with girth and/or strength. There are even times West is only about 6 feet away from Roy, with the ball above his head looking right at him ready to pass, but he doesn't trust that Roy will cleanly catch the ball, so he goes to the rim or passes out to someone else.

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