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Thread: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    He's a great coach.......one of the best in franchise history. But he's not above criticism....very few people in basketball are. He's not Red Auerbach yet. There are a few head scratching things that he does. You get a brand new player in Lavoy Allen who in his very first game with the team goes for 13 points on 6-6 and 4 rebounds. He hasn't got another minute since then, while we continue to play a guy in Scola who has looked like crap for a while. That is just stubborn rigidness. I would think that a coach would want to see what he had in a player like Allen.
    Ehh, Scola has started to turn it around lately imo. Either way, it's not like the only information we have on Lavoy Allen is his one game in the rotation here. He played quite a few minutes for Philly before the trade, and he wasn't a world beater. His one real game for us he played great in his hometown against his former team, who is awful. He played well enough to warrant some spot minutes, especially with Bynum's knee being fluidy and Ian nursing sore ribs, but I don't think he deserves PT over Scola (or Copeland, for that matter).

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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    He's a great coach.......one of the best in franchise history. But he's not above criticism....very few people in basketball are. He's not Red Auerbach yet. There are a few head scratching things that he does. You get a brand new player in Lavoy Allen who in his very first game with the team goes for 13 points on 6-6 and 4 rebounds. He hasn't got another minute since then, while we continue to play a guy in Scola who has looked like crap for a while. That is just stubborn rigidness. I would think that a coach would want to see what he had in a player like Allen.
    I understand. But he's calling for LaVoy because he went 6-6 during one game. The guy is a career 45% shooter.
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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I understand. But he's calling for LaVoy because he went 6-6 during one game. The guy is a career 45% shooter.

    I agree, I'm not saying that he's going to be some stud or anything. But not getting a single minute since then is a bit bizarre.

    As someone who still has a lot of faith in Scola, I think a little bit of rest really could help. Delicate situation, but he's no spring chicken anymore. In the playoffs, I want the November/December Scola who was one of the better bench players in the league.

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  5. #104

    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I understand. But he's calling for LaVoy because he went 6-6 during one game. The guy is a career 45% shooter.
    His young legs are good too. Scola has 34 year old guy legs. LaVoy would help greatly against a team like the Knicks. Also playing Copeland instead of Scola would stretch the floor. A bench of.......



    Copeland
    Solo/Butler
    LaVoy
    Turner
    CJ



    has more firepower than....



    Scola
    Turner
    Ian
    Lance
    CJ




    And please, stop playing Lance with the bench. So annoying.

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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    His young legs are good too. Scola has 34 year old guy legs. LaVoy would help greatly against a team like the Knicks. Also playing Copeland instead of Scola would stretch the floor. A bench of.......



    Copeland
    Solo/Butler
    LaVoy
    Turner
    CJ



    has more firepower than....



    Scola
    Turner
    Ian
    Lance
    CJ




    And please, stop playing Lance with the bench. So annoying.
    And I think that's the problem many people see with your suggestions - "more firepower" does not always mean "better unit".

    Especially since the downfall last year was platooning the starters and bench separately - much of our success this year has been, I believe, due to very very seldom having no starters on the floor (a HUGE change from last year).
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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Ehh, Scola has started to turn it around lately imo. Either way, it's not like the only information we have on Lavoy Allen is his one game in the rotation here. He played quite a few minutes for Philly before the trade, and he wasn't a world beater. His one real game for us he played great in his hometown against his former team, who is awful. He played well enough to warrant some spot minutes, especially with Bynum's knee being fluidy and Ian nursing sore ribs, but I don't think he deserves PT over Scola (or Copeland, for that matter).
    The only reason to play Lavoy is the same reason to play Copeland......either to rest Scola ( due to injury or what not ) or ( IMHO...more importantly ) to see if he is a good fit as a backup Frontcourt Player ( and therefore....in Lavoy's case.....worth re-signing in the offseason ). My guess is that Bird is going to strongly consider waiving Scola in the offseason ( in an effort to re-sign Lance or Turner ) and I think that it will be important to figure out if Lavoy and/or ( more importantly ) Copeland can play the backup PF spot.
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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    And I think that's the problem many people see with your suggestions - "more firepower" does not always mean "better unit".

    Especially since the downfall last year was platooning the starters and bench separately - much of our success this year has been, I believe, due to very very seldom having no starters on the floor (a HUGE change from last year).


    Our problem last year was our bench sucked. Sam Young, Augustin, Green? Just a lack of talent. We have far more talent this season.

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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    Our problem last year was our bench sucked. Sam Young, Augustin, Green? Just a lack of talent. We have far more talent this season.
    Augustin and Green have been terrific this season. Maybe Vogel didn't know how to use them
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  12. #109

    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Augustin and Green have been terrific this season. Maybe Vogel didn't know how to use them
    Augustin had to be great in Chicago. It was his fourth team. Green flourishes in Phoenix because maybe he's finally found his shot. He had some good games in Indy but his dribble and shot was so bad couldn't get consistent minutes. You could make the same case for Jerryd Bayless. Remember when we traded him to Portland on draft day? He sucked there royally. He had a bit of flow with the Raptors but didn't last long there either. Then his stint with the Grizzlies, and now he's with Boston. Bayless was projected/supposed to be a franchise type PG for some team. Still hasn't fulfilled that promise. He was supposed to be the next Monta Ellis. Didn't happen. Lower than that, Louis Williams. I'd say Louis is better right now than Bayless.

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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Augustin and Green have been terrific this season. Maybe Vogel didn't know how to use them
    I guess the question is whether Vogel is the type of Coach that changes the System to fit the Player or he tries to get the Player to fit the system.

    From what I have seen of the way he runs the Offense and Defense.....he changes for no one. Given the # of Teams that they have played for.....both DJ and Green appear to be Players that excel in certain "Systems".....clearly Green didn't fit in the slow-paced offense and the same for DJ where he was asked to be more "off the ball". This doesn't mean that the Players weren't good or anything....it means that they simply didn't fit a system that the Coach wasn't willing to change. I can see how it could suggest that Vogel is inflexible at times ( as witnessed by his unwillingness to swap out Scola for Copeland ), but I don't see changing the offense to fit 2 Backup Players.

    This is just one of those times where we see that the Players do not fit the Offense while not faulting either the Players or the Coach/System. Both simply appeared to be Square Pegs that couldn't fit into Vogel's puzzle.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I guess the question is whether Vogel is the type of Coach that changes the System to fit the Player or he tries to get the Player to fit the system.

    From what I have seen of the way he runs the Offense and Defense.....he changes for no one. Given the # of Teams that they have played for.....both DJ and Green appear to be Players that excel in certain "Systems".....clearly Green didn't fit in the slow-paced offense and the same for DJ where he was asked to be more "off the ball". This doesn't mean that the Players weren't good or anything....it means that they simply didn't fit a system that the Coach wasn't willing to change. I can see how it could suggest that Vogel is inflexible at times ( as witnessed by his unwillingness to swap out Scola for Copeland ), but I don't see changing the offense to fit 2 Backup Players.

    This is just one of those times where we see that the Players do not fit the Offense while not faulting either the Players or the Coach/System. Both simply appeared to be Square Pegs that couldn't fit into Vogel's puzzle.
    It's not quite that simple.

    Coaches very seldom have two completely different offenses for the "starters" and the "bench". If nothing else, this is because if an injury occurs, the bench has to move up into the starting lineup and getting in sync with an entirely new offense would be ridiculous for a short-term substitution.

    There's a big difference between a coach who doesn't adjust the offense to the starters (such as He Whom We Do Not Name) and a coach who only wants to make minor changes to the starters' offense when the bench is on the floor.

    I really feel like the job of a bench player is to adapt to a system. Only if you are good enough to start should the system adapt to you.
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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I guess the question is whether Vogel is the type of Coach that changes the System to fit the Player or he tries to get the Player to fit the system.

    From what I have seen of the way he runs the Offense and Defense.....he changes for no one. Given the # of Teams that they have played for.....both DJ and Green appear to be Players that excel in certain "Systems".....clearly Green didn't fit in the slow-paced offense and the same for DJ where he was asked to be more "off the ball". This doesn't mean that the Players weren't good or anything....it means that they simply didn't fit a system that the Coach wasn't willing to change. I can see how it could suggest that Vogel is inflexible at times ( as witnessed by his unwillingness to swap out Scola for Copeland ), but I don't see changing the offense to fit 2 Backup Players.

    This is just one of those times where we see that the Players do not fit the Offense while not faulting either the Players or the Coach/System. Both simply appeared to be Square Pegs that couldn't fit into Vogel's puzzle.
    Vogel has crafted his system to fit his players, the starters that is. You won't find many coaches that radically shift their system to accommodate bench players, you craft the system around the most important personnel. You then find peripheral pieces that fit, not the other way around imo.
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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Its not like there needs to be a complete 180 in the game plan when the reserves are in... Rather, find away to incorporate the player strengths into it... How do you not look to get Scola the ball just outside of the block?? Same when Granger was here... Both those guys excel from there offensively and are able to get a good look or make a good pass... It is not dissimilar to what the starters do (did during the first portion of the year)... But there was no attempt to go inside when any of the reserves bigs are in...(until Bynum played)

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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Ehh, Scola has started to turn it around lately imo. Either way, it's not like the only information we have on Lavoy Allen is his one game in the rotation here. He played quite a few minutes for Philly before the trade, and he wasn't a world beater. His one real game for us he played great in his hometown against his former team, who is awful. He played well enough to warrant some spot minutes, especially with Bynum's knee being fluidy and Ian nursing sore ribs, but I don't think he deserves PT over Scola (or Copeland, for that matter).
    He has just earned some more PT, imo. The same applies to Copeland. I don't have an issue with Vogel but I'd like to see him giving some PT to Allen and Cope.
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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    His young legs are good too. Scola has 34 year old guy legs. LaVoy would help greatly against a team like the Knicks. Also playing Copeland instead of Scola would stretch the floor. A bench of......
    Maybe a larger sample size than a single game before we declare the guy a savior? Or maybe his career numbers are closer to reality to what he is than that one game?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Pacers Sixers Post Game Thread Even the Crowd Was Asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by bballpacen View Post
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    Its not like there needs to be a complete 180 in the game plan when the reserves are in... Rather, find away to incorporate the player strengths into it... How do you not look to get Scola the ball just outside of the block?? Same when Granger was here... Both those guys excel from there offensively and are able to get a good look or make a good pass... It is not dissimilar to what the starters do (did during the first portion of the year)... But there was no attempt to go inside when any of the reserves bigs are in...(until Bynum played)
    Scola cannot dribble and he isn't good with his back to the basket so I don't see how that would help. He used to be automatic when he was wide open but now his shot is flat almost all of his shots are hitting the back of the iron. I'd love for Scola to break out of his slump but I get the feeling that his legs are really tired or his elbow is hurting him. I'm down with sitting him 4-5 games to get him some rest before the playoffs and giving Copeland and Lavoy Allen some run.
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