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Thread: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    what was I thinking... I forgot since GHill is from Indy he is above any deragoratory comments regarding his game. now I would nvr have made this statement about dj Augustine prior to this season.. but would anyone be upset if we cloned cj Watson , paid him 1.5 to start and saved 6.5 million to add another shooter/scorer ie jj Reddick, korver, jamal Crawford for the difference.
    I've lived in New York State my entire life. It would be pretty odd for me to have local Indy bias. Now Syracuse players on the other hand...

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    I can't help but feel part of the reason we're in the slump we are has something to do with Evan Turner. He's always had a reputation of being a 'net-negative' player in the league. I couldn't care less about how many points he scores, he looks like he neglects running an offense whenever he gets the ball and instead dribbles around randomly and takes a stupid shot. He probably frustrates his teammates and it could be creating tension in the locker room.

    I know Lance does the same thing sometimes, but I think he has the green light from Vogel to do so. I don't mind when Lance does it because he can take it to the rim with energy and create offense out of nothing. He is also the best finisher on the team IMO and shoots 50%. Turner on the other hand...is basically a half@ssed version of Lance.

    I know we were in a bit of a slump before he came over, but it went from bad to much worse when he got here. We narrowly beat a couple of garbage teams, but have lost all of our games against .500+ teams since he joined and the team just doesn't look good overall right now. At least compared to how we used to look.

    I hate to say it, but I really do think he's created some chemistry issues. Whether or not we can fix it is a different issue, but I'm not a fan of this guy so far. I know you might disagree, but that's my opinion. I don't really see how anyone can see him as an "insurance policy" for Lance ... I'd almost rather just cut the guy TBH. He lacks fundamental basketball IQ.
    Bring Danny off the bench

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    This team would be superiorly more efficient with PG`s like Chambers, Andre Miller, or any guard with point guard abilities under frank`s system for that matter.


    Point guards characteristics

    A point guard, like other player positions in basketball, specializes in certain skills. A point guard's job is to create scoring opportunities for his/her team, or sometimes attack the basket.Lee Rose has described a point guard as a coach on the floor, who can handle and distribute the ball to teammates. This involves setting up plays on the court, getting the ball to the teammate in the best position to score, and controlling the tempo of the game. A point guard should know when and how to instigate a fast break and when and how to initiate the more deliberate sets. Point guards are expected to be vocal floor leaders. A point guard needs always to have in mind the times on the shot clock and the game clock, the score, the numbers of remaining timeouts for both teams, etc.

    After an opponent scores, it is typically the point guard who brings the ball down court to begin an offensive play. Passing skills, ball handling, and court vision are crucial. Speed is important; a speedy point guard is better able to create separation and space off the dribble, giving him/herself room to work. Point guards are often valued more for their assist totals than for their scoring. Another major evaluation factor is Assist-to-Turnover ratio, which reflects the decision-making skills of the player. Still, a first-rate point guard should also have a reasonably effective jump shot.

    Having above average size (height, muscle) is considered advantageous, although size is secondary to situational awareness, speed, quickness, and ball handling skills. Shorter players tend to be better dribblers since they are closer to the floor, and thus have better control of the ball while dribbling. So point guards tend to be short since dribbling the ball is an essential skill for the position. Among the taller players who have enjoyed success at the position is Magic Johnson, who was 6'9" (2.06 m) and won the National Basketball Association Most Valuable Player Award three times in his career. Other point guards who have been named NBA MVP include Derrick Rose, Bob Cousy, Oscar Robertson (who somewhat foreshadowed Johnson in that he was 6'5" [1.96 m], the height of many forwards in his era), and two-time winner Steve Nash.

    Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_guard


    Biased George Hill fans please stop arguing that Hill should play PG over SG or I will have to go into GREAT detail.
    Is that wikipedia?

    The fact that you would think Andre Miller would fit into our offensive pretty much sums it up. But to think our offense would be better with Mario Chalmers (thus claiming that he is more of a PG than Hill) is pretty out there as well.

    Our PG doesnt initiate the offense the majority of the time. They also need to be a major 3pt threat to spread the floor. Guys that need the ball in their hands in order to create, are horrible fits for this system. (Look at DJ Augustin)

    Hill is about as perfect a fit as you're gonna get for the system Vogel runs. Thats just a fact. Anyone that says different is most likely bias and not looking at facts.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Is that wikipedia?

    The fact that you would think Andre Miller would fit into our offensive pretty much sums it up. But to think our offense would be better with Mario Chalmers (thus claiming that he is more of a PG than Hill) is pretty out there as well.

    Our PG doesnt initiate the offense the majority of the time. They also need to be a major 3pt threat to spread the floor. Guys that need the ball in their hands in order to create, are horrible fits for this system. (Look at DJ Augustin)

    Hill is about as perfect a fit as you're gonna get for the system Vogel runs. Thats just a fact. Anyone that says different is most likely bias and not looking at facts.

    The fact you neglected a point guard's characteristics sums it for for me.


    Frank lacks imagination and is a horrendus players coach.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    My thought on Hill is that he's caught in the middle between performing PG and SG duties, and he ends up not doing either fully, or effectively. He doesn't do enough to initiate the offense or create shots for his teammates in his PG role, and isn't aggressive enough in shooting the ball in his SG role.

    Too often he either doesn't have the ball in his hands to initiate something, or, when he does, he simply passes the ball off to someone else instead of creating something. I'd love to see him drive to the basket more and either dish or pull up and shoot. What's more frustrating is that I believe he CAN do these things. He CAN be more aggressive and create more. It just seems that he has games where he floats around on offense and defers to everyone else too much.

    I'd like to see him be our 2nd leading scorer.
    Last edited by A-Train; 03-15-2014 at 10:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Is it just me, or was anybody else impressed with Lavoy Allen? I said when we got him, I want to try to find a way to re-sign him for cheap, he could be a replacement for D-West, no not as good as D-West, but a serviceable PF

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    The fact you neglected a point guard's characteristics sums it for for me.


    Frank lacks imagination and is a horrendus players coach.
    Thats because that's not the end all be all of PG play in the modern NBA. Thats just one persons opinion

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    DeAndre Jordan for the Clippers averages just as many points & blocks as Roy Hibbert, but he also averages 14 Rebs a game. I contend that rebounding on both the offensive and defensive ends is a huge part of playing defense. When you rebound, you don't have to play defense for that possession. So I can accept that When Roy challenges and blocks the shot his rebounds are affected and thus our wings have to swoop in and get those boards for us. But I cannot accept watching Roy on the offensive end not fight for rebounds. He doesn't fight for position to rebound, and he is hanging out by the free throw line trying to take jumpers. If Roy is gonna abandon his post game, then he needs to muscle up and get into the paint for rebounds.
    You know the one thing that I noticed about Bynum the other night? He got his *** into the paint early in the possession and worked for his position all game. He never once let himself get pushed out of the paint and out of position to try and go for a rebound. Not only that, but like a true center once he got the rebound, he never brought the ball down low to have it slapped away.

    Sure the Pacers are the best rebouding team in the league, but we are also a poor shooting team because our 7-2 center can't give us easy buckets on putbacks around the rim. So we could definetly be alot better, and our offensive would be a **** load more efficient if that guy actually tried to get O-Rebounds.
    And DJ isn't going to win DPOY either. When he gets those rebounding totals, while sliding over and challenging everything at the rim, it will be a more apt comparison due to the defensive roles.


    Lance does steal rebounds, but he should a bit and it should be encouraged. Not to actually steal them, but rebound extremely aggressively. This is a team sport. Roy's rebounding numbers don't mean much in the grande scheme of things because his teammates make up for him being out of rebounding position.

    The only rebounding totals we should be worried about from Roy is his offensive ones. If the Pacers start getting worked on the boards, it will become an issue. But while the Pacers have remained an elite rebounding team, it's not all that big of a deal.




    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    Frank lacks imagination and is a horrendus players coach.
    Do you have one player that has ever said anything close to that?
    Last edited by Since86; 03-15-2014 at 11:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    It's almost like these guys have never played together sometimes. That West turnover to Roy is a total miscommunication, which shouldn't be happening.

    Thought they should have went to West sooner down the stretch though. Good to see they did, which I don't know why they've been going away from him lately. He's still the guy that gets you the best shot. More PnPs with PG at least.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Thats because that's not the end all be all of PG play in the modern NBA. Thats just one persons opinion
    It's the universal fundamentally accepted definition. I hate when people talk from their ***.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    What the hell is up with all these sky is falling posts? If you can't differentiate that we played much better last night than we have been, you need to watch closer. The only area we didn't do well in was turnovers. Had we reduced those it would have been a blowout win.

    The Vogel, Hill, "bad system" comments are completely untrue and indicative of unnecessary panic sentiments.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And DJ isn't going to win DPOY either. When he gets those rebounding totals, while sliding over and challenging everything at the rim, it will be a more apt comparison due to the defensive roles.


    Lance does steal rebounds, but he should a bit and it should be encouraged. Not to actually steal them, but rebound extremely aggressively. This is a team sport. Roy's rebounding numbers don't mean much in the grande scheme of things because his teammates make up for him being out of rebounding position.

    The only rebounding totals we should be worried about from Roy is his offensive ones. If the Pacers start getting worked on the boards, it will become an issue. But while the Pacers have remained an elite rebounding team, it's not all that big of a deal.






    Do you have one player that has ever said anything close to that?


    What i'm trying to reach at here is that frank does not utilize players to their strengths.

    I do have some spoken word evidence but examples are more important.

    Gereld Green
    DJ
    Plumlee
    Chris Copeland
    George Hill
    Danny Granger
    Darren collision
    Lance Stevenson

    The list will continue to grow when players leave here.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    This team would be superiorly more efficient with PG`s like Chambers, Andre Miller, or any guard with point guard abilities under frank`s system for that matter.


    Point guards characteristics

    A point guard, like other player positions in basketball, specializes in certain skills. A point guard's job is to create scoring opportunities for his/her team, or sometimes attack the basket.Lee Rose has described a point guard as a coach on the floor, who can handle and distribute the ball to teammates. This involves setting up plays on the court, getting the ball to the teammate in the best position to score, and controlling the tempo of the game. A point guard should know when and how to instigate a fast break and when and how to initiate the more deliberate sets. Point guards are expected to be vocal floor leaders. A point guard needs always to have in mind the times on the shot clock and the game clock, the score, the numbers of remaining timeouts for both teams, etc.....
    You don't watch a lot of basketball do ya? Mario Chalmers only brings the ball up sometimes! Miami does it the same way as we do, by committee. Most of the time, I see Labron bringing the ball past half-court. And Andre Miller???? The same Andre Miller that basically got booted off his own team and traded by Brian Shaw for insubordination?

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    UGLY GAME...the Orange in me like "GO MCW!" but the blue in gold me said "SCREW EM!" LOL...I do have a feeling we might lose tonight though

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    What i'm trying to reach at here is that frank does not utilize players to their strengths.

    I do have some spoken word evidence but examples are more important.

    Gereld Green
    DJ
    Plumlee
    Chris Copeland
    George Hill
    Danny Granger
    Darren collision
    Lance Stevenson

    The list will continue to grow when players leave here.
    Players coach typically means getting along with players, players liking the coach, etc.

    Phil Jackson didn't use players the "right" way either, in that everyone had to learn his system instead of him adapting his system to his players. Does that make him a bad coach? And that is what's essentially going on in Pacerland. And that vision didn't originate with Frank either. It started with Larry.

    This team started to look worse when it started getting more away from that system, and dependence on the smashmouth system, going to a more perimeter style.

    Geroge Hill isn't a creator, and shouldn't be expected to be one. He, along with Lance and PG, need structure as their decision making is down right awful at times. I think the system actually sets them up to succeed. Maybe in due time they'll be able to control the game, and the offense won't be as rigid, but until they demonstrate the ability to make good decisions, why should the offense be built around them playing to their "strengths?"

    Gerald Green's shot selection was awful here in Indy. He didn't miss shots because he didn't get enough looks, he missed shots because he took awful looks. It's working out for him in PHX, but I won't be looking at it as proven until he does it in the playoffs. Which the Pacers have proven they're right there knocking on the door with their system.
    Last edited by Since86; 03-15-2014 at 11:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    You don't watch a lot of basketball do ya? Mario Chalmers only brings the ball up sometimes! Miami does it the same way as we do, by committee. Most of the time, I see Labron bringing the ball past half-court. And Andre Miller???? The same Andre Miller that basically got booted off his own team and traded by Brian Shaw for insubordination?
    You don't watch basketball. Exactly you just contradicted your own logic. Franks system wont work a guy bringing the ball up that doesn't have pg characteristics everyime. Lance, george and turner and be facilitators like lebron is in miami.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    PacersForever, if it feels like no one is agreeing with you, you'd be correct.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Not to mention when the players talk about how to fix their problems, they start talking about "getting back" to playing together. They've bought into Frank, so it seems a bit weird to try and say Frank doesn't know what he's doing when they've produced some pretty good results and the players back him.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    PacersForever, if it feels like no one is agreeing with you, you'd be correct.

    My arguments will be proven on the court. If we lose, everyone can continue to speculate. If we win, we can focus on what aspects were improved.

    I just want the trophy this year. Teams like the 76ers should be beaten by 35 points from a team like ours that comes around once every decade ?
    Last edited by PacersForever; 03-15-2014 at 11:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    It's the universal fundamentally accepted definition. I hate when people talk from their ***.
    That is a description that generalizes the ideal qualities of the position from the writer's point of view. In youth and High School basketball you might use that to teach the position. No team has a PG that fits every one of those qualities, and in the NBA the positions are less strictly defined.

    I don't think you will find many on here claiming GHill is a PG to that strict definition. The overwhelming majority define him as a combo guard, as most of the players at the point in the NBA would probably be defined. The argument is about whether the PG qualities he brings are sufficient for the needs of the Pacers. To claim that the only reason to believe that is because of being from Indiana is ludicrous, especially when people can make very strong arguments based on how he is used. Changing the argument to claim that he is no good because that doesn't fit a strict definition says nothing about his actual contribution. It's just a way of being exclusionary.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    It's the universal fundamentally accepted definition. I hate when people talk from their ***.
    Except most of the best PG in the league dont fit your definition of a point guard. Point guards nowadays are much more offensively focused and are looking for their own shot first.

    EDIT: Or what Bills said lol

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    My arguments will be proven on the court. If we lose, everyone can continue to speculate. If we win, we can focus on what aspects were improved.

    I just want the trophy this year. Teams like the 76ers should be beaten by 35 points.
    Are there areas we need to clean up? Absolutely.

    That said we are playing NBA teams. 35 point wins should never been the expectation. This isn't Duke vs. Texas Bible College.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    My arguments will be proven on the court. If we lose, everyone can continue to speculate. If we win, we can focus on what aspects were improved.

    I just want the trophy this year. Teams like the 76ers should be beaten by 35 points.
    I don't think they will. And if you set the unrealistic expectation that we should always win by 35, you're setting yourself up for constant disappointment, and frankly no one wants to listen to that crap.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    My arguments will be proven on the court. If we lose, everyone can continue to speculate. If we win, we can focus on what aspects were improved.

    I just want the trophy this year. Teams like the 76ers should be beaten by 35 points.
    So the solution to winning the trophy is to hand over the offensive reins to a couple of 24yr old kids that have never carried an NBA team offensively before as THE GUYs?

    When I watch PG's 0-9 shooting games, or his 7pts, I've never thought to myself "Man, he's on KD's level." Paul is a damn good offensive player, don't get me wrong, but he's not at that level needed to carry a team. Lance isn't even on PG's level yet.

    What's best for them individually, isn't what's best for the team.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Pacers - 76ers 3/14 Post Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    You don't watch basketball. Exactly you just contradicted your own logic. Franks system wont work a guy bringing the ball up that doesn't have pg characteristics everyime. Lance, george and turner and be facilitators like lebron is in miami.
    Ok what the hell are you talking about! You're basically saying we need a pg like charmers that, as you claim, facilitates. Which he doesn't!! He mostly stands at the 3 point line and waits.

    BTW, I've probably watched more basketball in ten years than you may have in a lifetime, thank you very much.

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