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Thread: Roy and Rebounding

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    Default Roy and Rebounding

    There seems to be a common perception that Roy not getting 10 RPG is a big deal. Simply put it isn't. To quote Coach Evil it is "Irrelevant". Take a gander at these stats.

    Rebound Differential
    +4.1 rank 2nd

    Total Rebound Percentage
    .524 rank 2nd

    Defensive Rebound Percentage
    .768 rank 1st

    Opponent Defensive Rebounds Per Game
    30.5 rank 6th least

    Opponent Total Rebounds Per Game
    41.0 rank 4th least

    We are an elite rebounding team with or without Roy getting 10 per game. Roy is also a top 10 offensive rebounder at the center position at 175 total and an average of 2.7 (which accounts for just shy of 1/3rd of all Pacers' offensive rebounds). Where Roy doesn't get as many rebounds as his peers is defensive rebounds. This is in large part by design. By turning Roy into Mt. Hibbert he often is not in position to get a defensive rebound because he is trying to block or alter the shot being taken. What this does do though is open the door for Lance, Paul, and Hill to be above average to great rebounders at their positions. If there is anyone on this team that we should be complaining about not getting enough rebounds it is West.

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    When Roy contests shots it takes him out out of rebounding position. People who just look at Roy's size and complain about his lack of rebounding don't have a clue. He is our most important defensive player, so he expends energy getting back on defense as opposed to crashing the boards, and he contests shots, which causes misses and leaves a lot of backside rebounds open for guys like David and Lance.

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    When Roy contests shots it takes him out out of rebounding position. People who just look at Roy's size and complain about his lack of rebounding don't have a clue. He is our most important defensive player, so he expends energy getting back on defense as opposed to crashing the boards, and he contests shots, which causes misses and leaves a lot of backside rebounds open for guys like David and Lance.



    Soooo much this!

    Last night Roy contested a couple shots in a row and idiots in my section got pissed off at Roy b/c the Celtics ended up getting the Oreb and making the shot, despite his momentum going away from the basket and West being the one being beat by his man to the rebound. SMH... Just because a guy is 7'2 doesn't mean he is inspector gadget and should get every rebound within 8 feet even if there is 2-3 opponents between him and the ball, contrary to what my section believes (I'm still pissed that after last season our ticket rep promised we could move and when we showed up to seat selection day we were told we couldn't)...
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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    There seems to be a common perception that Roy not getting 10 RPG is a big deal. Simply put it isn't. To quote Coach Evil it is "Irrelevant". Take a gander at these stats.

    Rebound Differential
    +4.1 rank 2nd

    Total Rebound Percentage
    .524 rank 2nd

    Defensive Rebound Percentage
    .768 rank 1st

    Opponent Defensive Rebounds Per Game
    30.5 rank 6th least

    Opponent Total Rebounds Per Game
    41.0 rank 4th least

    We are an elite rebounding team with or without Roy getting 10 per game. Roy is also a top 10 offensive rebounder at the center position at 175 total and an average of 2.7 (which accounts for just shy of 1/3rd of all Pacers' offensive rebounds). Where Roy doesn't get as many rebounds as his peers is defensive rebounds. This is in large part by design. By turning Roy into Mt. Hibbert he often is not in position to get a defensive rebound because he is trying to block or alter the shot being taken. What this does do though is open the door for Lance, Paul, and Hill to be above average to great rebounders at their positions. If there is anyone on this team that we should be complaining about not getting enough rebounds it is West.
    If the role for the PG/SG/SF is to pull down the rebound while Hibbert/Mahinmi blocks out...what is the role of the PF in all of this?
    Last edited by CableKC; 03-12-2014 at 02:51 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    As has been brought up recently, the only thing I'd quibble with Roy's rebounding is on the offensive side of the ball. The Pacers are 19th in ORB% despite possibly being the biggest team in the league. It may not be their biggest problem, but it's the biggest area IMO where they have underachieved.

    Roy losing a full offensive rebound per game compared to last year despite playing 1.6 minutes more and taking over a shot less per game is one of the main culprits of that (Hansbrough to Scola is the other big one). This should be an area the Pacers can get a lot better in.

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    If the it is the PG/SG/SF role to pull down the rebound while Hibbert/Mahinmi blocks out...what is the role of the PF in all of this?
    Actually I think the PF is the one that should be blocking out, b/c our Centers are normally contesting shots and you cant do both...
    "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    As has been brought up recently, the only thing I'd quibble with Roy's rebounding is on the offensive side of the ball. The Pacers are 19th in ORB% despite possibly being the biggest team in the league. It may not be their biggest problem, but it's the biggest area IMO where they have underachieved.

    Roy losing a full offensive rebound per game compared to last year despite playing 1.6 minutes more and taking over a shot less per game is one of the main culprits of that (Hansbrough to Scola is the other big one). This should be an area the Pacers can get a lot better in.
    I think the reason for Roy's Oreb going down slightly is if you watch closely opposing teams are often blocking Roy out with 2-3 players (and count on their PF to beat our PF to the rebound). I like analytics but they don't tell the full story, like other team's putting an extra person to block out a player when the ball is in the air.
    "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    The biggest problem that I have with Roy under the boards is that his hands are not great and he ends up on the floor far too often. What I like about him the most is that a 7'2" man cannot be ignored anywhere near the basket. What would help us the most regarding Roy would be if he can somehow improve his ability to stay on his feet and to improve his offensive game to the point where he must be double-teamed any time he gets the ball in a post-up position, assuming that he can gain and hold said position in the first place.

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Coaches are having anybody near Roy (bigs and wings) come in and slam against him while blocking out. The foul isn't called because Roy is so big, and he can't get the rebound because he is thrown off balance because he...well...isnt the most stable person.

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Please God stop making excuses for this 7'2 man... who is the highest paid player on our team.... There is no excuse or reason a 7'2 Center should let guards take rebounds from him, or be boxed out... Fans will be making excuses for Roy his whole career... I have a one word answer for all of you and its : SOFT... Beside lack of talent, lack of being able to jump , lack of strength, lack of instinct, lack of good hands, He is and will always be SOFT...

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    Please God stop making excuses for this 7'2 man... who is the highest paid player on our team.... There is no excuse or reason a 7'2 Center should let guards take rebounds from him, or be boxed out... Fans will be making excuses for Roy his whole career... I have a one word answer for all of you and its : SOFT... Beside lack of talent, lack of being able to jump , lack of strength, lack of instinct, lack of good hands, He is and will always be SOFT...
    "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    When Roy contests shots it takes him out out of rebounding position. People who just look at Roy's size and complain about his lack of rebounding don't have a clue. He is our most important defensive player, so he expends energy getting back on defense as opposed to crashing the boards, and he contests shots, which causes misses and leaves a lot of backside rebounds open for guys like David and Lance.
    This is the only valid point on this whole Blog.. but its still not an excuse... A player can contest shots and rebound... Deandre Jordan Does it and he averages 14.5 rebounds a game... I promise you if Bynum plays 15 mins a game he will out rebound Roy if he plays 30.... Its simple Lack of skill and talent...

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    This is the only valid point on this whole Blog.. but its still not an excuse... A player can contest shots and rebound... Deandre Jordan Does it and he averages 14.5 rebounds a game... I promise you if Bynum plays 15 mins a game he will out rebound Roy if he plays 30.... Its simple Lack of skill and talent...
    Jordan plays a different defensive scheme where they don't funnel players to him. It is easier to get Def rebounds when you primarily go for just help side blocks.

    While Bynum was able to get rebounds our defense was worse with him in there and they got many easy baskets at the rim.

    You are looking at things way to narrowly.
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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    It's a big deal if we plan on giving him 30%. Humphries rebound over Roy last night happens way too often for me to ever consider Roy anything other than an average rebounder for his size.

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    As has been brought up recently, the only thing I'd quibble with Roy's rebounding is on the offensive side of the ball. The Pacers are 19th in ORB% despite possibly being the biggest team in the league. It may not be their biggest problem, but it's the biggest area IMO where they have underachieved.

    Roy losing a full offensive rebound per game compared to last year despite playing 1.6 minutes more and taking over a shot less per game is one of the main culprits of that (Hansbrough to Scola is the other big one). This should be an area the Pacers can get a lot better in.
    If you want Roy to crash the offensive boards harder then fine. Be prepared to have him in foul trouble more often and give up more transition buckets. I am not saying you are wrong, but there are areas which will hurt if Roy crashes the offensive glass harder.

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    Beside lack of talent, lack of being able to jump , lack of strength, lack of instinct, lack of good hands, He is and will always be SOFT...
    Let's just focus on rebounding for Hibbert....cuz the last sentence in your post is IMHO simply too broad of a very biased opinion against a Player that you clearly do not like that should warrant any type of response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    Please God stop making excuses for this 7'2 man... who is the highest paid player on our team.... There is no excuse or reason a 7'2 Center should let guards take rebounds from him, or be boxed out... Fans will be making excuses for Roy his whole career... I have a one word answer for all of you and its : SOFT...
    You make it seem like Hibbert tries to go after a rebound, PG24 or Lance come swooping in, pushes him aside like he's a ragdoll while grabbing the rebound before he can even get near the ball. There is a reason for a 7'2 Center letting Guards ( like PG24, Lance and GH ) pull down rebounds.....he is out of position to get the rebound because of what he is being told to do by Vogel.....he is told to block out BY DESIGN.

    How do you pull down a rebound if you are out of position because you are blocking out and therefore out of position? As tadscout suggested....just because he is super tall and long....it doesn't mean that even if he is out of position that he will be able to "Inspector Gadget" his arms out to grab the rebound when he is blocking out.

    Do you think that it is a coincidence that PG24 and Lance are Top 1 and 3 at their respective Positions when it comes to Defensive Rebounding? I suspect that part of it is due to their athleticism and length....but I also think that Vogel puts them in the position to be able to pull down those rebounds because of what Hibbert/Mahinmi are asked to do when they are on the floor.

    Does it mean that Hibbert won't be knocked over cuz of his low center of gravity and he lacks the strength to get knocked over ALL THE TIME? Nope....but don't confuse this lack of strength with his knack for being knocked over all the time ( as you say, cuz he's soft ) with his lack of rebounding when it comes to pulling down defensive Rebounds. I'd suspect that if Vogel didn't have him blocking out as much that his rebounding #s would improve....not by leaps and bounds...but something closer to what would be considered acceptable for a Center.
    Last edited by CableKC; 03-12-2014 at 04:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    If you want Roy to crash the offensive boards harder then fine. Be prepared to have him in foul trouble more often and give up more transition buckets. I am not saying you are wrong, but there are areas which will hurt if Roy crashes the offensive glass harder.
    Agreed. Some are looking at this like it is black and white, but it isn't as clear cut as: JUST GET REBOUNDS!!! Basketball is a dynamic sport and there are many variables to consider. I've seen a couple times where people claim I don't care or want to hear about our system, player X should be getting this many of Y no matter what! It just doesn't work that way folks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadscout View Post
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    He's stupid because of what? Is anything he said wrong?

    Maybe a tad harsh but not stupid. Roy has flaws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tadscout View Post
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    I like analytics but they don't tell the full story, like other team's putting an extra person to block out a player when the ball is in the air.
    Although, to be fair, if you had access to the full SportVU data, you could absolutely calculate this by running some kind of "Percentage of rebounding opportunities with 2 (or 3 or 4) opposing defenders within 3.5 feet". That would give you a solid number to compare to other centers.

    The Pacers are #1 in defensive rebounding %. That's a fact. So I agree that Roy's rebounding isn't a problem. Hard to have a problem when you are #1.

    It is also true that Roy's lack of athleticism does cost him a board or two. D. Jordan gets a ton of boards because he can contest shots, recover, and jump after the board. Roy largely can't.

    It is also worth noting that Roy is in the Top 10 in the NBA in raw contested rebounds per game. I don't agree that Roy has a problem with opposing players snagging rebounds out of his hands. I do agree that he doesn't grab contested rebounds 100% of the time, which frustrates people who believe that people with the height advantage should grab rebounds 100% of the time.

    You can't discuss Roy's rebounding without mentioning all the times Lance steals boards from him. He is the anti-Troy Murphy in this regard.

    Finally, ignoring all other factors, Roy is obviously not a dominant rebounder in the way Howard or Love are. But the guy who stays straight up when LeBron goes straight into his chest isn't "weak" or "soft". The Pacers could use his help on the offensive boards in the absence of a guy like Hansbrough or Foster. But the Pacers are the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA, so that story is a non-starter.

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    He's stupid because of what? Is anything he said wrong?
    I'm not calling him stupid (I don't know him) but rather his statement... and it has been countered with plenty of points throughout this thread by multiple people.
    "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

  33. #21

    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Roy doesn't have the natural attributes to be a great rebounder other than his size. It is what it is... he's below average on the defensive boards and above it on the offensive boards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    If you want Roy to crash the offensive boards harder then fine. Be prepared to have him in foul trouble more often and give up more transition buckets. I am not saying you are wrong, but there are areas which will hurt if Roy crashes the offensive glass harder.
    The Pacers were the best transition D in the league last year despite being in the top five in offensive rebounding. It was a big talking point last season how the Pacers were able to do both. Roy's fouls were also only slightly higher last year. Obviously the changes to the bench unit make the team not exactly like last year, but Roy plays few enough minutes that he ends up playing the vast majority of the minutes with the same starters that he did last year.

    I agree there's a tradeoff. But I think it's been shown that for the Pacers, the rewards are higher than the risk. The Pacers struggle to break down defenses in the halfcourt, and offensive rebounds often lead to great chances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tadscout View Post
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    I'm not calling him stupid (I don't know him) but rather his statement... and it has been countered with plenty of points throughout this thread by multiple people.
    So because of some other peoples opinions and some math his opinion is stupid? Gotcha.

    I happen to agree with him. Roy is soft in many ways on the basketball court and rebounding is one of them.

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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    So because of some other peoples opinions and some math his opinion is stupid? Gotcha.

    I happen to agree with him. Roy is soft in many ways on the basketball court and rebounding is one of them.
    Everyone has the right to an opinion. Just as everyone has the right to disagree with an opinion, so don't make it seem criminal for someone to do so...

    Obviously we can agree to disagree and leave it there.
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    Default Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Roy doesn't have the natural attributes to be a great rebounder other than his size. It is what it is... he's below average on the defensive boards and above it on the offensive boards.
    Yes, we can take this statement to be true....there's no dispute that his rebounding #s are lower for a Center....much less one that is 7'2".

    But what we are saying is that he is a below average rebounding in these catagories NOT because of the reasons why MT3131 states when it comes to rebounding:

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131
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    Please God stop making excuses for this 7'2 man... who is the highest paid player on our team.... There is no excuse or reason a 7'2 Center should let guards take rebounds from him, or be boxed out... Fans will be making excuses for Roy his whole career... I have a one word answer for all of you and its : SOFT... Beside lack of talent, lack of being able to jump , lack of strength, lack of instinct, lack of good hands, He is and will always be SOFT
    But because of what he is asked to do by Vogel....hence BY DESIGN. There's a difference. This isn't a scenario where Vogel tells Hibbert to not Block Out, go after all rebounds at all costs and Hibbert simply isn't able to do to it because he ( as MT3131 suggests ) simply lacks the ability to do so.

    I don't deny that Hibbert has below average Rebounds for a Center, that he while gets knocked over WAY MORE THAN I am comfortable with and doesn't get outmuscled by stronger/smaller Players.....but MT3131's response simply doesn't take into account what he is asked to do on the court.
    Last edited by CableKC; 03-12-2014 at 04:59 PM.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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