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Thread: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

  1. #201

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    You're just backwards on this. A totally free market would (or I guess I should say "could") have monopolies. Regulators say regulations are needed in order to stop monopolies.

    A free market means the market (business) is free to do what they'd like, without outside governmental control.
    This is not correct. You are using unregulated and free interchangeably. A free market is a market that allows businesses, both player and owner in this case, to offer their services. When the league does things like a salary cap or max salary or age restriction, that is not a free market, that is making the market less free by restricting who can or cannot participate.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    By this definition, isn't the NBA itself creating a restriction by creating an age restriction. That seems to be a restriction on the individual businesses that are the players. It is also a collusion of 30 business to restrict who cannot go into business with them. The market to be free has to be free on both sides.

    Collusion, in itself, isn't illegal. And in order to be a free market, it only needs to be free of outside regulations. Business do, and should, regulate themselves.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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  4. #203

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Collusion, in itself, isn't illegal. And in order to be a free market, it only needs to be free of outside regulations. Business do, and should, regulate themselves.
    Agree to disagree, I guess.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    You're just backwards on this. A totally free market would (or I guess I should say "could") have monopolies. Regulators say regulations are needed in order to stop monopolies.

    A free market means the market (business) is free to do what they'd like, without outside governmental control.
    Talk about ignorance and 18 yr old girls.

    That is the funniest thing I have ever read. You do understand that when you have a monopoly they OWN the market. There is no one else in the market. They effectively are the only people in the market who are free. Everybody else gets screwed.

    I know our government is owned by big business and it have effectively stopped pursuing anti trust in any manner, but you do know that in a capitalist society, monoplies are BAD? Please tell me you do?

    If you don't, I fear what young people are being taught in college today.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    This is not correct. You are using unregulated and free interchangeably. A free market is a market that allows businesses, both player and owner in this case, to offer their services. When the league does things like a salary cap or max salary or age restriction, that is not a free market, that is making the market less free by restricting who can or cannot participate.
    Find me a definition of free market where it talks about employees being free to choose their employers.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker80 View Post
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    Talk about ignorance and 18 yr old girls.

    That is the funniest thing I have ever read. You do understand that when you have a monopoly they OWN the market. There is no one else in the market. They effectively are the only people in the market who are free. Everybody else gets screwed.

    I know our government is owned by big business and it have effectively stopped pursuing anti trust in any manner, but you do know that in a capitalist society, monoplies are BAD? Please tell me you do?

    If you don't, I fear what young people are being taught in college today.
    Yes, I understand that monopolies are bad. I didn't say they were good. I said that monopolies can happen in free markets. If one business got so big that it crushed all their competition, they would be a monoply. There's nothing that would stop them from doing it. The good thing about the free market is if there was a monopoly, someone would be free to start their own competing business.

    I wasn't taught this in college, thanks. I'm a free market capitalist enjoying Libertarian, who likes to spend his free time reading economic blogs.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    If an employer in the free market puts forth arbitrary labor requirements that the public deems unfair, the free market solution isn't to tell them that their arbitrary requirements are wrong, but rather to have a competing entity come in and offer a product without the requirements.

    We're trying to make the definition of "free market" much more complicated than it actually is.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  10. #208

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker80 View Post
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    Talk about ignorance and 18 yr old girls.
    I'd rather .........

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker80 View Post
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    And yet 4 yr college players who were considered the BEST college players include

    Jimmer Freddette
    Tyler Hansbrough
    They WERE a couple of the best college players. But, most people had their reservations about how their skills would translate to the pro game, thanks to their time in college.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    This is a really weird thread.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker80 View Post
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    I know this, if Greg Oden has come up lame in his freshman year, instead of his rookie year and had been made to stay 3 years, it would have been one of the biggest screw jobs in history. And if I were a Cavs fan in 2003 and had to watch Lebron go pretend to be in college for a year or 3 years, I would have been pizzed.
    I've never understood this rationale. This idea that not paying someone to do something they aren't physically capable of doing is somehow a screw job. That it's somehow better that someone be paid millions of dollars to do something which they are not qualified or able to do, for whatever reason. Like a couple of years as a great high school player entitles one to millions of dollars.

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  15. #212
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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train View Post
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    They WERE a couple of the best college players. But, most people had their reservations about how their skills would translate to the pro game, thanks to their time in college.
    Yes, hence their respective draft positions. Late lottery. This year's version? Doug McDermott.

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  17. #213
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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    The NBA is a business and can set its own rules. But those rules are subject to the labor laws of the US. The NBA, on its own, cannot discriminate against adults by denying them the opportunity to make the teams. That is black letter law, I believe. The NBA and its players can negotiate the rules of the workplace to have an age limit. That is also black letter law, I believe. This whole thing is a labor relations issue that has to be negotiated.

    Interesting, this is one of the few work rules that the players have an informed opinion on. All of the players have been the 18 yr old wunderkind growing up. They've been there and done that. It is my understanding that they have a strong feeling that the younger guys should have a chance to try to make the league.
    Age discrimination has fell flat on its face in court.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    I'd rather .........
    There are laws against people drinking under 21 too...yet young men can be drafted to go to war. There are reasons and they are linked to whether a person is truly mature enough to handle X properly. Honestly, I think most men mature by the time they are 24...and 80% do by the time they are 28. Some never do. That's a lot of years where they are knuckle heads...

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    There are laws against people drinking under 21 too...yet young men can be drafted to go to war. There are reasons and they are linked to whether a person is truly mature enough to handle X properly. Honestly, I think most men mature by the time they are 24...and 80% do by the time they are 28. Some never do. That's a lot of years where they are knuckle heads...
    ...

    ****.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Okay. I don't know what the hell Kedrick Brown has to do with this. I think Tyler was a fine draft pick at #13, not good, not bad, but about what we expected.

    This isn't an exact science either way. I don't have a good answer for it, and can see both sides of the argument.
    Looking at the draft, I would say that Tyler went a bit early but not much. I would guess his correct # was around 17.

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  22. #217

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Age discrimination has fell flat on its face in court.
    It's not age discrimination. It is restraint of trade, I think. It is something that cannot be done legally unless it is collectively bargained.

    or maybe anti-trust.
    Last edited by xIndyFan; 03-13-2014 at 09:57 PM.

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  24. #218

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    We're trying to make the definition of "free market" much more complicated than it actually is.
    Because the practical American economic model of "free market" is more complicated than the theoretical free market. Just like the American version of "democracy" is not a pure democracy.

    Which is why it's irrelevant whether someone COULD set up a competitor to a monopoly, a monopoly is still illegal under American law. Without the players union, the NBA is illegal.

  25. #219

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    There are laws against people drinking under 21 too...yet young men can be drafted to go to war. There are reasons and they are linked to whether a person is truly mature enough to handle X properly. Honestly, I think most men mature by the time they are 24...and 80% do by the time they are 28. Some never do. That's a lot of years where they are knuckle heads...
    I don't know about the rest of your post, but I can tell you why the drinking age is 21 instead of 18. It is an attempt to keep alcohol out of the hands of 16 yr olds. An 18 yr old will buy for his 16 yr old friends. A 21 yr old will buy for his 18 yr old friends. But not that many 21 yr olds hang out with 16 yr old, so they don't buy for them. The question of 18 vs 21 as a drinking age is a practical one, not a philosophical one.

  26. #220

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    I agree with you except for the bolded parts. The NBA is legal without the union, but things like the draft, salary cap, max salary, age limits, etc are illegal.
    I maybe didn't make it clear there, but that's what I meant. The anti competition practices of the NBA, which I think are great for basketball in a lot of cases.

  27. #221

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    I maybe didn't make it clear there, but that's what I meant. The anti competition practices of the NBA, which I think are great for basketball in a lot of cases.
    Sorry, my bad. I agree. Things like the max salary, salary cap, draft etc make for a healthy and competitive league.

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  29. #222

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Never understood the thought process that monopolies are bad, and they certainly are not illegal, nor should they be. Of course from a consumer's perspective, competition is good as typically results in higher quality, more options, and lower prices. But if a private sector business just so happens to dominate a market to the point where it becomes a monopoly, then blame the competition for not providing a better product or service, and kick-start your own business to compete. Don't blame the monopoly for offering the better product or service.

    And sorry but no, the NBA would not be illegal with or without a player's union. Monopolies are only illegal in the United States if they take any kind of action to limit competition, which is simply not the case. If you wish to form your own professional basketball league tomorrow, you are free to do so.

  30. #223
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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    The NBA is legal without the union, but things like the draft, salary cap, max salary, age limits, etc are illegal.
    Actually all of those are perfectly legal with or without a union.

  31. #224

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Actually all of those are perfectly legal with or without a union.
    Are you sure? I'm not a lawyer, but it seems a clear case of anti-trust.

  32. #225

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    Never understood the thought process that monopolies are bad, and they certainly are not illegal, nor should they be. Of course from a consumer's perspective, competition is good as typically results in higher quality, more options, and lower prices. But if a private sector business just so happens to dominate a market to the point where it becomes a monopoly, then blame the competition for not providing a better product or service, and kick-start your own business to compete. Don't blame the monopoly for offering the better product or service.

    And sorry but no, the NBA would not be illegal with or without a player's union. Monopolies are only illegal in the United States if they take any kind of action to limit competition, which is simply not the case. If you wish to form your own professional basketball league tomorrow, you are free to do so.
    The issue with the NBA is not the monopoly, it is the anti-trust issues. The league itself is legal, but the practices such as the draft, max-salaries, salary cap are without the union.

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