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Thread: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

  1. #226

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Here is a lawyer, Larry Coon, from his CBA FAQ:

    4. What is the Collective Bargaining Agreement?


    It's the legal contract between the league and the players association that sets up the rules by which the league operates. (It's commonly abbreviated as "CBA," which is not to be confused with either the Chinese Basketball Association or the Continental Basketball Association. The abbreviation CBA will be used in the remainder of this document.)


    The CBA defines the salary cap, the procedures for determining how it is set, the minimum and maximum salaries, the rules for trades, the procedures for the NBA draft, and hundreds of other things that need to be defined in order for a league like the NBA to function.


    The CBA also prevents the NBA from being in violation of federal antitrust laws. Many of the league's practices (such as the salary cap and draft) would violate antitrust laws were they not agreed to via collective bargaining (see question number 114).

    114. What does it mean when the players union decertifies? Why would they want to do that? What effect does it have?


    Decertification and disclaimer of interest are similar processes to end a union's authority to collectively bargain on behalf of its members. A decertification is issued by the union members, while a disclaimer of interest is issued by the union itself. They are tactics sometimes employed (or at least threatened) by player unions in the event of a difficult labor situation. Antitrust laws are at odds with labor laws -- while antitrust laws prohibit cooperation among competitors and agreements that are anticompetitive, labor laws encourage cooperation among competitors -- such as forming unions and bargaining collectively. This tension is resolved with the "non-statutory labor exemption," which exempts collective bargaining agreements from the antitrust provisions. The NBA draft and restrictions on salaries and free agency are immune from the antitrust laws so long as they are part of the CBA.


    Courts have ruled (with the NFL) that the non-statutory labor exemption shield continues even after the CBA expires, so long as a "labor relationship" still exists. But if the players decertify or the union disclaims interest -- ending the union's collective bargaining rights and turning it into a non-union trade association -- it ends this continuing labor relationship and opens the league to an antitrust suit.


    The NBA players association threatened to decertify in both 1995 and 1998, but ultimately voted against it both times. The union did disclaim interest during the 2011 labor dispute (see question number 7), filing an antitrust suit shortly afterward. The suit was settled over the following days (ending the labor dispute), and the players voted to re-certify the union in order to conclude their labor negotiations and settle on a new CBA.

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  3. #227

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    they need to just get rid of the requirement altogether. if some guy out of high school really thinks he's ready for the big show- let him have a go at it. he's taking a risk bypassing a free scholarship and a chance to get some pre nba practice to see if he's anywhere close to ready. but, let him make that decision whether it's a good/bad one.
    life is always full of risks.

  4. #228

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    The issue with the NBA is not the monopoly, it is the anti-trust issues. The league itself is legal, but the practices such as the draft, max-salaries, salary cap are without the union.
    Lol that's a load of bull ****.

  5. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by clownskull View Post
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    they need to just get rid of the requirement altogether. if some guy out of high school really thinks he's ready for the big show- let him have a go at it. he's taking a risk bypassing a free scholarship and a chance to get some pre nba practice to see if he's anywhere close to ready. but, let him make that decision whether it's a good/bad one.
    life is always full of risks.
    The issue with the NBA is not the player. They don't care if the guy can make a team or not. The issue for the NBA is the time spent on the rookie contract learning to play. The rookie contracts are the cheap labor of the league. They want to have guys ready to go as soon as they sign a contract. To maximize their value while on the rookie contract. They don't want the Andrew Wiggins growing up on the NBA's dime.

  6. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    Lol that's a load of bull ****.
    That may be your opinion, but it is black letter law, none the less. See post #226, from Larry Coon's CBAFAQ.

  7. #231

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    That may be your opinion, but it is black letter law, none the less.
    If that's truly the law, then I'm surprised the constitutionality of it hasn't come to question. Players are not forced to chose basketball as their profession, nor the NBA as their employer. By attempting to join the NBA, they are accepting the rules that the league puts forth. If you don't like the practices of an organization, then you are free to look elsewhere for a job. The government simply does not have the right to step in and mandate a union for an organization to be deemed legal.

  8. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    If that's truly the law, then I'm surprised the constitutionality of it hasn't come to question. Players are not forced to chose basketball as their profession, nor the NBA as their employer. By attempting to join the NBA, they are accepting the rules that the league puts forth. If you don't like the practices of an organization, then you are free to look elsewhere for a job. The government simply does not have the right to step in and mandate a union for an organization to be deemed legal.
    It is an anti-trust issue. Athletic leagues are a special case in anti-trust law. Each of the teams is a different business, joining together to compete under the league. Each of the players is a business, independent contractor. Things like the draft restrict the players right to bargain for a job with whatever team he wants.

    It has gone to court (both baseball and football) and the owners lost. This is a settled issue, I believe.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    The issue with the NBA is not the monopoly, it is the anti-trust issues. The league itself is legal, but the practices such as the draft, max-salaries, salary cap are without the union.
    Max salaries and the cap are pretty clearly accepted by the players union. I honestly don't know about the draft, it's so ingrained I've never really thought about how it came about. It IS odd that Team X decides where you spend the next 3 years, at least, of your career and you have very little say in it, it is fairly off putting when you think about it.

    I just thought about it a bit, and with the cap structure the NBA currently has would it be THAT drastic to just abolish the draft and rookie scale deals and just let kids declare and then they're just free agents? It's not like LA or Miami or NYC or whomever have a ton of capspace every year to just get everybody. It'd (somewhat) help tanking for the people that think that's a problem.

  10. #234

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Truehoop had an article about that idea last year actually:

    http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/b...38&src=desktop

    What if Ben McLemore and other top picks entered the NBA through free agency instead of the draft?


    A number of an economists have addressed the issue of tanking and found that the phenomenon comes and goes, depending on the details of the draft lottery format. A study I co-authored with Brian Soebbing and David Berri -- both of whom have weighed in here on tanking at TrueHoop -- suggests that NBA teams did not tank during the period when the NBA draft lottery format was weighted equally among non-playoff teams in the late 1980s.


    Under this format every team that finished out of the playoffs had the same chance of getting the first pick in the next draft. But that format was scrapped because of concerns about competitive balance after several teams that barely missed the playoffs were awarded the first pick. Going back to the equal weight draft lottery would eliminate some of the incentives to tank, but this may have unintended consequences for competitive balance.

    But if I was czar of the NBA, my solution would be more radical, and would take care of another problem generated by the NBA entry draft with a single stroke. I would eliminate the draft entirely. All tanking incentives in the NBA originate with the draft, so eliminating the draft eliminates incentives to tank. The alternative is that all incoming players are free agents and can be signed by any team, forcing teams to compete for all incoming talent.


    Critics would howl that this policy would wreck competitive balance. The large-market teams would buy up all the good players, leading to a lopsided league of haves and have-nots!


    My response to this criticism is: This would be unlikely to happen with the current NBA roster limits and salary cap. Incoming players would be subject to the cap, and rosters spots on NBA teams are limited, so large-market teams could not stockpile all the incoming talent.


    The entry draft also gives teams market power (monoposony power, in the jargon of economics) because of rookie-scale contracts, which reduce the earnings of players in the first two or three years of their careers. Free agency would benefit these players, in that some of them would clearly earn higher salaries.


    Also, a significant body of economic research suggests that entry drafts, salary caps and revenue sharing do not have any appreciable impact on competitive balance. This further strengthens the argument that eliminating the draft would not hurt competitive balance in the NBA.


    I also think it's important to think about tanking from the fan's perspective. While seeing your team intentionally lose games at the end of the season might reduce attendance in the short run, getting the first pick in the NBA draft can significantly improve a team in the NBA, and fans might be willing to trade-off short run intentional losses for long-run success generated by the first pick. No research has addressed this issue, or examined how tanking affects attendance or media revenues, but it’s worth thinking about.


    Brad Humphreys is a professor in the College of Business and Economics, Department of Economics at West Virginia University. His research focuses on the economics of sports and gambling.

    Last edited by King Tuts Tomb; 03-14-2014 at 01:36 AM.

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  12. #235
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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Max salaries and the cap are pretty clearly accepted by the players union. I honestly don't know about the draft, it's so ingrained I've never really thought about how it came about. It IS odd that Team X decides where you spend the next 3 years, at least, of your career and you have very little say in it, it is fairly off putting when you think about it.

    I just thought about it a bit, and with the cap structure the NBA currently has would it be THAT drastic to just abolish the draft and rookie scale deals and just let kids declare and then they're just free agents? It's not like LA or Miami or NYC or whomever have a ton of capspace every year to just get everybody. It'd (somewhat) help tanking for the people that think that's a problem.
    It would be so awesome to see, LeBron and wade courtside at Cameron indoor stadium at every Duke game trying to recruit Jabari Parker to take less money to sign with the heat for a year or two...

    Or better yet, let's remove the age restrictions and have lebron or Durant hanging out at high schools offering to tutor the next big star if he'll declare and sign with his team....

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    It would be so awesome to see, LeBron and wade courtside at Cameron indoor stadium at every Duke game trying to recruit Jabari Parker to take less money to sign with the heat for a year or two...

    Or better yet, let's remove the age restrictions and have lebron or Durant hanging out at high schools offering to tutor the next big star if he'll declare and sign with his team....
    Or Sam Hinkie talking to him after a game about how he wants to pay him 16 or so times what Miami could.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Or Sam Hinkie talking to him after a game about how he wants to pay him 16 or so times what Miami could.
    ...except with a rookie pay scale, he can't, not to mention until a kid declares to go pro (which he wouldn't until his HS/college season is over), NBA team reps can't have any contact with amateurs, whereas NBA players as independent contractors can have all the access they want. A teenage phenom that grew up idolizing LeBron as long as he can remember is going to gladly give up some extra cash to play on a team with his idol, make huge endorsement cash playing on the NBA's rock star club, and take the opportunity to learn from the best until he's played out his rookie contract and he's ready for the big bucks (which- surprise! Miami probably lets go of the dead weight so they can re-sign said prospect anyway in 4 years.)


    Or are you implying the NBA have no rookie pay scale either? Because that's an even more destructive idea. Now the next 18-year old free agent Andrew Wiggins gets to hold Milwaukee or Minnesota hostage for max money straight out of highschool (or else he'd sign with the Knicks or Heat for less), and then we're back to the Glenn Robinson days of the highest paid player on an NBA team being a kid that's never played a minute of actual NBA basketball. On top of that, NBA teams are now adding the kid's father to the payroll, or his highschool coach in exchange for them steering a kid towards them.

    You've laid out like 2 or 3 of the worst possible doomsday scenarios ever for the NBA. Yes, it would fix tanking, and in 10 years we will have contracted every franchise outside of LA, NY, Chicago and Miami, because no other city would ever touch another franchise type prospect without shelling out $100 million in guaranteed money first, at which point any small market team that swings for the fences and whiffs is in danger of going under.
    Last edited by Kstat; 03-14-2014 at 03:25 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...except with a rookie pay scale, he can't, not to mention until a kid declares to go pro (which he wouldn't until his HS/college season is over), NBA team reps can't have any contact with amateurs, whereas NBA players as independent contractors can have all the access they want. A teenage phenom that grew up idolizing LeBron as long as he can remember is going to gladly give up some extra cash to play on a team with his idol, make huge endorsement cash playing on the NBA's rock star club, and take the opportunity to learn from the best until he's played out his rookie contract and he's ready for the big bucks (which- surprise! Miami probably lets go of the dead weight so they can re-sign said prospect anyway in 4 years.)


    Or are you implying the NBA have no rookie pay scale either? Because that's an even more destructive idea. Now the next 18-year old free agent Andrew Wiggins gets to hold Milwaukee or Minnesota hostage for max money straight out of highschool (or else he'd sign with the Knicks or Heat for less), and then we're back to the Glenn Robinson days of the highest paid player on an NBA team being a kid that's never played a minute of actual NBA basketball. On top of that, NBA teams are now adding the kid's father to the payroll, or his highschool coach in exchange for them steering a kid towards them.

    You've laid out like 2 or 3 of the worst possible doomsday scenarios ever for the NBA. Yes, it would fix tanking, and in 10 years we will have contracted every franchise outside of LA, NY, Chicago and Miami, because no other city would ever touch another franchise type prospect without shelling out $100 million in guaranteed money first, at which point any small market team that swings for the fences and whiffs is in danger of going under.
    Why is a rookie holding out for massive money bad? You really want to argue rookie deals help parity or whatever? Because you're simply wrong. You honestly sound like an NBA exec.

    If a team makes a bad signing it's not the player's fault, it's their scouting and coaching staff's fault. Assuming it's play related anyway obviously. I honestly don't understand why you want NBA teams to have so many advantages.

    The doomsday scenario stuff it just wrong. I didn't say abolish the cap, I said abolish the draft and rookie scale deals. Miami's not going to have cap space to give Embiid the max this summer. And if they suck in 10 years or whatever and have a bunch of space, good for them. Teams with a hint of contentions aren't going to dump massive salary to get space to sign the next Lebron. And even if they did that's not wrong.
    Last edited by Heisenberg; 03-14-2014 at 03:47 AM.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Why is a rookie holding out for massive money bad? You really want to argue rookie deals help parity or whatever? Because you're simply wrong. You honestly sound like an NBA exec.

    If a team makes a bad signing it's not the player's fault, it's their scouting and coaching staff's fault. Assuming it's play related anyway obviously. I honestly don't understand why you want NBA teams to have so many advantages.

    The doomsday scenario stuff it just wrong. I didn't say abolish the cap, I said abolish the draft and rookie scale deals. Miami's not going to have cap space to give Embiid the max this summer. And if they suck in 10 years or whatever and have a bunch of space, good for them. Teams with a hint of contentions aren't going to dump massive salary to get space to sign the next Lebron. And even if they did that's not wrong.
    News flash: Miami WOULD have enough room to sign embed and whoever else, as bosh wade and James are free agents. Even if they weren't, embed would take a discount to play with lebron James. Anyone would.

    ...so not only are you going to defend the indefensible, you're going to double down....

    I just showed that for eight consecutive drafts, nba scouts failed to accurately guage one single high school prospect. But hey, taking a $100 million shot in the dark is a fantastic idea! Obviously all those teams just had horrible scouts....any college scout will tell you gauging high school prospects is a piece of cake, really.

    18 year old kids essentially holding small market teams hostage over "potential.," and making more money than guys that played in the league for a decade. It's faaaantastic....

    In case you're too young to remember, Glenn Robinson jr was the poster boy for the entitled spoiled rookie 20 years ago when there was no rookie pay scale and it made things worse for everyone involved not named Glenn Robinson jr. He held out into the regular season and eventually got his massive payday, but his teammates resented him, his own fans resented him, and the GM resented having to deal with it. It was one massive PR black eye for the nba and both the players and owners wanted to out a stop to it, which they did in 1999.

    If you need me to further explain to you why this is a terrible idea, there is no possible explanation I can give that will get through to you, because you're divorced from reality.
    Last edited by Kstat; 03-14-2014 at 04:35 AM.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    I have no desire to discuss this further, you're entirely too condescending.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    There's nothing left to discuss. You want to go back to the mid-90's rookie contracts, only give the rookies even more power than they had before. If there's a more effecient "kill 3/4 of the nba by the next decade" idea, I can't come up with it.

    I'm honestly sorry if you find this condescending, but words are not sufficient to describe how brutal this idea is. Not one person associated with the nba would agree to it. The mere idea honestly would unite the players' union and owners like never before in opposition.
    Last edited by Kstat; 03-14-2014 at 05:46 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

  20. #242

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    I love the NBA draft so I wouldn't want to change it, but just for the record I think KStat is misstating or misunderstanding a few points from the argument.

    -$100 million for a rookie

    In the arguments I've seen for this system, outside of the rookie salaries, the salary scale stays the same. Meaning a player with less than X amount of years can only make max $13 million plus raises, for up to five years. A full max contract for a rookie would be $70 million-ish. A lot, but much less than $100 million.

    -Glenn Robinson

    Robinson was a disaster because of his demand for more money and the restriction that he could only play for one team. Milwaukee had used a valuable asset on Robinson and if they didn't reach a deal then their asset would be lost for nothing, which is why Robinson had leverage in his hold out. There would be no hold outs in the new system because there's no team to hold out from. You negotiate equally with all teams.

    Here's why I disagree with it:

    -Small market teams would have a far harder time signing elite players than they do now. If the money is equal, most players would choose LA/NY/MIA over Milwaukee or Indianapolis. The very top elite players are almost the only way you can win an NBA title, which gives small market teams even less of a shot than now. Smart GMs like Pat Riley will structure all their contracts to end in the same year and just restock endlessly every four years.
    Last edited by King Tuts Tomb; 03-14-2014 at 07:05 AM.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    News flash: Miami WOULD have enough room to sign embed and whoever else, as bosh wade and James are free agents. Even if they weren't, embed would take a discount to play with lebron James. Anyone would.
    This is completely not true. Why would Joel Embiid, a 20 year old kid from Cameroon, with a potentially serious back issue be willing to take less money at the start of his career to play with anybody?

    That would be so incredibly stupid I can't even comprehend that you are suggesting it's a no-brainer for him or anybody else. Why would you risk your ability to provide for your family for something like that? Because LeBron is a big celebrity and it would be fun to play with him? Goodness. Surely you're not really this stupid.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    This is completely not true. Why would Joel Embiid, a 20 year old kid from Cameroon, with a potentially serious back issue be willing to take less money at the start of his career to play with anybody?

    That would be so incredibly stupid I can't even comprehend that you are suggesting it's a no-brainer for him or anybody else. Why would you risk your ability to provide for your family for something like that? Because LeBron is a big celebrity and it would be fun to play with him? Goodness. Surely you're not really this stupid.
    ....because any rookie playing out his rookie deal is going to look better and make more money for himself on the back end playing with lebron, and endorsement opportunities will increase tenfold. Rookies make comparatively little anyway so the difference won't be tens of millions of dollars.

    Not to mention, if the back issue turns out to be a serious risk, Miami simply passes on him and moves on to the next best prospect, ala Kentucky.

    You considered none of that? Surely, you're not that stupid...
    Last edited by Kstat; 03-14-2014 at 08:05 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    Each of the teams is a different business, joining together to compete under the league.
    I see, they consider each team an individual business, instead of it being a single business. Even if it isn't true in practice, the way they set up their business makes them different businesses within the eyes of the law.

  24. #246

    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Not to mention, if the back issue turns out to be a serious risk, Miami simply passes on him and moves on to the next best prospect, ala Kentucky.
    This I think is the biggest flaw with the free agent rookie idea. It's not that Miami will get Wiggins or Embiid or Parker, it's that they'll always be able to easily sign late lottery level talent for mid level money.

    Miami/LA/NY might not always get the top 7 talent, but they'll get the 8-16 talent consistently every year.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ....because any rookie playing out his rookie deal is going to look better and make more money for himself on the back end playing with lebron, and endorsement opportunities will increase tenfold. Rookies make comparatively little anyway so the difference won't be tens of millions of dollars.

    Not to mention, if the back issue turns out to be a serious risk, Miami simply passes on him and moves on to the next best prospect, ala Kentucky.

    You considered none of that? Surely, you're not that stupid...
    There is not one single respectable NBA agent that would allow his client to do something like that. You're completely wrong.

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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    There is not one single respectable NBA agent that would allow his client to do something like that. You're completely wrong.
    Really? Using absolutes about what an individual is willing to do?
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  27. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I see, they consider each team an individual business, instead of it being a single business. Even if it isn't true in practice, the way they set up their business makes them different businesses within the eyes of the law.
    I had hoped there was a lawyer somewhere here on PD. They could do a much better job of explaining the details. But the clubs are separate businesses working together. The Knicks do not share their TV receipts or game receipts with the Kings or anyone else. The same with basketball decisions, business decisions, office hires, etc. Since those individual businesses join together to compete as a league, they have to be careful not to work together [collusion] when dealing with the players. That is the point of the CBA. It gives the league anti-trust protection on those issues that have been collectively bargained. Things like the draft, max salaries, salary cap, etc. Without the CBA, the teams could only bargain with individual players in a completely free market. Teams like the Knicks, Lakers, Brooklyn and the Bulls could pay whatever they wanted for whoever they wanted. So, theoretically, could the Pacers. But the small market teams just don't have the resources to do that.

    Basically after that, everything Kstat said above would happen and the NBA would be a 5 or 6 team league. Pretty good basketball though.

  28. #250
    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA to raise minimum age to 20?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    There is not one single respectable NBA agent that would allow his client to do something like that. You're completely wrong.
    Well, it's good that the players work for the agents, and not the other way around...

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