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Thread: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

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    THE WITCH IS DEAD!!! Coopdog23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    What is Larry disappointed of?
    Smothered Chicken!

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    I always feel like when someone gets Bird to speak, this team always picks it up a notch. Honestly, wish someone had asked him his thoughts a few games sooner.
    dhur?

    So, the way Vogel and Bird communicate is through newspaper interviews?
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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    dhur?

    So, the way Vogel and Bird communicate is through newspaper interviews?
    That's not what I'm saying at all. I think when Bird's thoughts become media mainstream (because I dont think Bird "lets the players have it", as he's more of a bystander as President of Basketball Ops), the players take notice and pick it up a notch.

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    What is Larry disappointed of?
    What he has been seeing in terms of preparation, focus, effort, execution, commitment. Any other questions?

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    ................. I dont think Bird "lets the players have it", as he's more of a bystander as President of Basketball Ops ..........
    I just have a tough time seeing it this way. As competitive as Larry is, as much as he wants to win it all and seeing as this is pretty much a team that he assembled ---- I just don't see him NOT saying something to the players in an 'energetic' way.

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    I just have a tough time seeing it this way. As competitive as Larry is, as much as he wants to win it all and seeing as this is pretty much a team that he assembled ---- I just don't see him NOT saying something to the players in an 'energetic' way.
    And if he isn't, he should be.

    In all reality, I think the media stories coincide with his expressions to the team. He talks to the team/coach, reporters get wind of it, and the story comes out because it isn't a usual event. I don't think it's that Larry says nothing to nobody and the players react when his opinions hit the papers, nor is it that he says something to the coach and players but they pooh-pooh it until it comes out in the media.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    "I'm sort of going to Frank's side because he's had so much success by staying positive,'' Bird said. "We do have to stay the course. But I also think he's got to start going after guys when they're not doing what they're supposed to do. And stay on them, whether you've got to take them out of the game when they're not doing what they're supposed to do or limit their minutes. I will say, he hasn't done that enough."
    I like this part. Especially the "but..."

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    I don't blame him for being disappointed but Larry brought in all these guys so he can't absolve himself of the blame. The Danny Granger for Evan Turner trade is looking pretty bad right now. It's really messed up the defense of the team more than it has effected the offense or the locker room. From ESPN:

    Research Notes
    The Pacers acquired Evan Turner and Lavoy Allen at the trade deadline in exchange for Danny Granger. Turner is averaging 9.1 points and 22.9 minutes in a small 8-game sample with the team, right around what Danny Granger averaged this season in Indiana (8.3 PPG, 22.5 minutes). But in 653 minutes with Granger on the floor this season, the Pacers outscored their opponents by 8.5 points per 48 minutes. For context, that's 2.1 points better than Indiana's season average and the Clippers lead the NBA in that category at +7.0. Since Turner's first game, Indiana has been outscored by 7.4 points per 48 minutes with him on the court. In 202 minutes with Turner off the floor during that span, the Pacers have a points differential of 0.
    [+]
    Ouch! I like Evan Turner but he's brought some bad defensive habits from the Philly with him to Indy. I think it's also had a negative effect on Lance on the offensive end. Lance is no longer looking to set up his teammates when he's out there with the bench and he's running more Isolation plays for himself.

    I think things will work themselves out eventually but the trade put a lot more pressure on Frank and the coaching staff because they now have to work out a scheme to make up for Evan's defensive weaknesses. Thankfully they have an easier schedule and more days off for practice and by the time they get to the final 15 games they should be able a cohesive team again.

    Reasons for optimism - Look at the Golden State Warriors, Chicago Bulls, and Dallas Mavericks. Not too long ago those teams were in a free-fall but they've bounced back and now look like they could at least give the top teams a run for their money in the playoffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    GOOD GOD THAT'S LARRY BIRD'S MUSIC!

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I don't blame him for being disappointed but Larry brought in all these guys so he can't absolve himself of the blame. The Danny Granger for Evan Turner trade is looking pretty bad right now. It's really messed up the defense of the team more than it has effected the offense or the locker room. From ESPN:



    Ouch! I like Evan Turner but he's brought some bad defensive habits from the Philly with him to Indy. I think it's also had a negative effect on Lance on the offensive end. Lance is no longer looking to set up his teammates when he's out there with the bench and he's running more Isolation plays for himself.

    I think things will work themselves out eventually but the trade put a lot more pressure on Frank and the coaching staff because they now have to work out a scheme to make up for Evan's defensive weaknesses. Thankfully they have an easier schedule and more days off for practice and by the time they get to the final 15 games they should be able a cohesive team again.

    Reasons for optimism - Look at the Golden State Warriors, Chicago Bulls, and Dallas Mavericks. Not too long ago those teams were in a free-fall but they've bounced back and now look like they could at least give the top teams a run for their money in the playoffs.
    That some pretty damning statistics. Get rid of a guy who can play D and knows all the defensive schemes and bring in a guy who hasn't played a lick of defense all year. This is why I say Bird got the GM Boner when he heard Turners name come up. It was on name recognition only. Granger suffered from the what have you done for me lately syndrome. Well he only held his opponents to sub 30% shooting and a 9 PER. That point differential might even a bit as the season goes on and the Pacers make some adjustments, but for sure we probably can not be the same typeof defensive team we were before the deadline.

    As for Lance, I think he stopped looking for his teammates ever since he was in the conversation for the allstar game. Some might say he stopped looking for teammates because they couldn't shoot the ball well. Others might say they couldn't' shoot the ball well because they never got quality shot opportunities from Lance.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 03-12-2014 at 12:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I don't blame him for being disappointed but Larry brought in all these guys so he can't absolve himself of the blame. The Danny Granger for Evan Turner trade is looking pretty bad right now. It's really messed up the defense of the team more than it has effected the offense or the locker room. From ESPN:



    Ouch! I like Evan Turner but he's brought some bad defensive habits from the Philly with him to Indy. I think it's also had a negative effect on Lance on the offensive end. Lance is no longer looking to set up his teammates when he's out there with the bench and he's running more Isolation plays for himself.

    I think things will work themselves out eventually but the trade put a lot more pressure on Frank and the coaching staff because they now have to work out a scheme to make up for Evan's defensive weaknesses. Thankfully they have an easier schedule and more days off for practice and by the time they get to the final 15 games they should be able a cohesive team again.

    Reasons for optimism - Look at the Golden State Warriors, Chicago Bulls, and Dallas Mavericks. Not too long ago those teams were in a free-fall but they've bounced back and now look like they could at least give the top teams a run for their money in the playoffs.

    It is still too early to say, 8 games could easily be just an anomaly outside of Turner's control, but those are some pretty damning numbers.

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    It is still too early to say, 8 games could easily be just an anomaly outside of Turner's control, but those are some pretty damning numbers.
    Lance shouldn't be out there with the bench in the first place.

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    The main reason why we outscored opponents with Granger instead of Turner is simply to me; 3-point shooting and floor spacing. Who on our second unit can shoot the three? No one, especially without Watson healthy. That's why Vogel's stubborn *** needs to be playing one of either Copeland or Butler a lot more. They haven't been overly big liabilities in my mind defensively to offset the fact we need their shooting. Hell, every time Copeland's on the floor he's hustling and working his tail off defensively and almost always comes and drains a few shots. I still don't get it.
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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by P_George View Post
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    The main reason why we outscored opponents with Granger instead of Turner is simply to me; 3-point shooting and floor spacing. Who on our second unit can shoot the three? No one, especially without Watson healthy. That's why Vogel's stubborn *** needs to be playing one of either Copeland or Butler a lot more. They haven't been overly big liabilities in my mind defensively to offset the fact we need their shooting. Hell, every time Copeland's on the floor he's hustling and working his tail off defensively and almost always comes and drains a few shots. I still don't get it.


    It looks like Frank is moving to a ten man rotation. Last night's unit of course will feature Watson instead of Sloan. But I'd like to see Copeland and Butler instead of Scola.

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    It looks like Frank is moving to a ten man rotation. Last night's unit of course will feature Watson instead of Sloan. But I'd like to see Copeland and Butler instead of Scola.
    An word on Watson, I thought I read somewhere that he is expected back on Friday...
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  21. #41

    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    What is the chance that one of the guys Bird thought Frank needed to get on is Lance? Frank has done a nice job of getting Lance to buy into the team concept using positive reinforcement to get him to tone down parts of his game. But the end of the season is fast approaching and 'getting better but not quite there yet' is rapidly becoming not good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I busted it into paragraphs for easier reading.

    Bob Kravitz, The Indystar:

    . . . "I'm sort of going to Frank's side because he's had so much success by staying positive,'' Bird said. "We do have to stay the course. But I also think he's got to start going after guys when they're not doing what they're supposed to do. And stay on them, whether you've got to take them out of the game when they're not doing what they're supposed to do or limit their minutes. I will say, he hasn't done that enough.


    . . . Bob Kravitz is a columnist for The Indianapolis Star. Call him at (317) 444-6643 or email bob.kravitz@indystar.com. Follow him on Twitter: @BKravitz.

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  23. #42

    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Gotta take off the kid gloves.

    Last night when Paul continued jacking up three's and Lance forgot a play and ruined a possession would have been perfect times to set an example.
    Last edited by CJ Jones; 03-20-2014 at 07:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    It looks like Frank is moving to a ten man rotation. Last night's unit of course will feature Watson instead of Sloan. But I'd like to see Copeland and Butler instead of Scola.
    What has Cope done that has people so enamored? Yes Scola has been awful, but Cope looked no better against NY.

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    Default Re: Kravitz - Bird: I'm not mad I am disappointed. Bird critical of Vogel?

    Quote Originally Posted by P_George View Post
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    The main reason why we outscored opponents with Granger instead of Turner is simply to me; 3-point shooting and floor spacing. Who on our second unit can shoot the three? No one, especially without Watson healthy. That's why Vogel's stubborn *** needs to be playing one of either Copeland or Butler a lot more. They haven't been overly big liabilities in my mind defensively to offset the fact we need their shooting. Hell, every time Copeland's on the floor he's hustling and working his tail off defensively and almost always comes and drains a few shots. I still don't get it.
    Granger is 8-27 from 3 since arriving in LA. That is less that 30% and a continuation of his bad shooting in Indy. Evan Turner is 6-13 since arriving in Indy. That is nearly 50%. Now who is more effective from 3? Lance Stephenson is shooting better from 3 too.

    Seriously, people are living in the past. I know Danny used to be able to shoot...but he's not doing that well in 2014.

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