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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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the reddit forum thread

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  • the reddit forum thread

    oh well this is not going well anyway so here is what really happened, (and trust me, i will agree with all people who say i did it on purpose);

    in reply to solozzo's last post that he had not edited his post, i was trying to copy a post from the admin forum, made you ChicagoJ in which he also stated that it was changed on 11-9-2012 (the date of ChicagoJ's post) however, it ended up on the thread but as 1st post, so i removed it, unaware that since it had now de facto become the 1st post (how that is possible is well beyond me so dont ask) it's removal would lead to thread removal, which happened, of course that is irreversible as there is no backup of the thread limited resources make that i dont run a daily or hourly backup of the forum but a weekly, which has not ran but does run today as it did last week (3163522893 2014-03-03 17:02 pdbackup.sql) but as you see it is sizeable (3Gb for a dump)
    so i lost the thread, big deal yes, but as they say, stuff happens. and whlist i am sorry, please feel free to rehash or regurgitate, or just continue like it is still here.
    I am very sorry but there is nothing i can do to make it right and well those who believe me do, those who don't don't.

    Sometimes i wonder why people are even paying for VB software, as to be honest, a not losing this until cache is dumped is not to much to ask for but it has not changed in VB since 2002 i am told by VB.
    Since the thread does not exist in the backup i can not reload the data that exists still in cache and in the database, but has lost its headers back into the forum, had the header existed in there there would be a (very difficult) way of recovery.

    to keep the conversation going, sollozzo you lost part of your memory, see the remarks by ChicagoJ and...(i will add that in once i carefully copy & pasted it away from the forum)

    ChicagoJ ChicagoJ is offline
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    Default Re: Infraction for Sollozzo: Unacceptable Comment and/or Content
    He did change it. I was a bit disappointed by the original version but didn't have time to say so. He's too good for that.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  • #2
    Re: the reddit forum thread



    I don't know what to say. That's so unfortunate it's not even funny.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: the reddit forum thread

      say whatever you want, i did not set out to do this, i would have had easier ways to get rid of it!
      i fail to see why vb works in this way, how on earth add a post as 1st post in a thread that is 11 pages long? where is the *&^%%^ logic to that?
      and why on earth can't one undo that?

      and done with defending myself, i made a mistake, feel free to hang me.
      So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

      If you've done 6 impossible things today?
      Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: the reddit forum thread

        I agree vB has weak spots like that. My question is: Why try to merge anything at all? Why not just copy/paste what you wanted to share to begin with?

        I believe you, it's just I don't know why you were even attempting to do it that way. Seems like a harder way to do it than a copy/paste.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: the reddit forum thread

          i copied (moderation tools) because i would omit any chance of people saying i fiddled with it, so i wanted to just add the post to the thread
          So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

          If you've done 6 impossible things today?
          Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: the reddit forum thread

            Then that's why it went first. Chronological order. And once it was the first post, removing it removes the entire thread because, to the database, it's seen as the thread starter/creator.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: the reddit forum thread

              **** happens, it does and I have no problem believing you Abel, but holy crap could this have happenned on a worse moment?
              2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

              2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

              2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: the reddit forum thread

                Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                Then that's why it went first. Chronological order. And once it was the first post, removing it removes the entire thread because, to the database, it's seen as the thread starter/creator.
                I can easily see that, now, do you however think i stopped to think about that just before i thought, oh that's not what i want, well i used copy so delete and try again?

                a hint; i did not
                So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

                If you've done 6 impossible things today?
                Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: the reddit forum thread

                  I was saying that mostly to sort it out myself and for the sake of others.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: the reddit forum thread

                    i know, not attacking you, but by definition it is bad db design if something can change the header that easy.
                    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

                    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
                    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: the reddit forum thread

                      Well, luckily, I save my long posts for such times as this . . .



                      Travmil said: "Jesus, don't you guys have work to do?"
                      I will go ahead and take some time to discuss this whole thing. Take note of what I quoted above. I'll get back to that eventually, but I will address the part of whether we have work to do and a life. Yes, we do. But PD has actually been a big part of my recreational life for several years, so I have a soft spot in my heart for the place and the admins. Therefore I will take the time to share my take on what is going on and why this is happening.

                      I'll do this the way Peck analyzes games. By going through each character involved.

                      Vnzla: He is lightning rod, a heckler, an insightful poster, an excellent news junkie, and one of the most stubborn people on the planet it seems. I enjoyed his posts, but sometimes thought he went too far. That didn't mean I wanted him banned, it just means I scrolled down real fast when I get tired of him. I can also tell him he's ridiculous (which I've done a couple of times) and then ignore him.

                      He is a load to deal with, for sure, and I do have compassion on those who dealt with him here as mods. In fact, I'm sure we'll have our confrontation with him over at PTP at some point, and maybe like parents to grandparents we'll say, "We feel your pain." I don't know. Don't even know if the board over there will last that long.

                      I am also not crazy about controversial epitaphs like "Nazi Able" and "cry baby Hicks." I wish he wouldn't use that kind of language. But I tolerate it and move on. And you know what? I've tolerated for years on PD the words on this planet I find absolutely most offensive, disrepectful, and out of bounds—taking Christ's name in vain (refer to post above that I quoted). I've asked mods to look into it, I've PM'd people privately asking them not to use such language (that's actually worked), and I've used satire to try to get rid of it (which also worked a good bit). I'm not trying to bring religion into this discussion, in fact invoking it will just point out some of my own hypocrisy, but I'm trying to make the point that tolerating people and phrases and action you don't like, even detest, is part of making a healthy community work. And, on that score, I've done my own part.

                      V. himself was not the problem, just a final straw, I'm guessing. The bigger question is what kind of forum do we want. Many of us just want a fun place to read some insightful posts, some funny posts, some hooligan foolishness, and some passionate fandom. I view it more like a locker room than a press conference. There are many media outlets that provide a press conference atmosphere. Only forums like ours can provide that candid, humorous, real and raw atmosphere. When we start cracking the whip so hard that we lose all that stuff, we really lose the currency of a good forum, imo.

                      A locker room can be a tough place. You must have thick skin. You must be able to ignore a heckler. You must be able to tell a guy, "Shut up, idiot" and then move on and not respond to provocations. You must put up with foul language. Once in a while fights break out. But the locker room provides the real skinny on what's happening with the team. It's the place you really want to be.

                      I have a real life. I have work. I have church, where I'm a leader. I have kids to father. I have plenty of real life, sober, serious things to address. I come to PD for some fun and a laugh—some insight, sure, but not just that—and for a place to share experiences about Pacer games, etc. I've personally lost a little luster for the place as it has gotten less colorful and more "respectful."

                      Hey, different strokes for different folks. If that's the way you guys want to proceed, then fine. I will still be participating. But I am trying to explain here why the new forum happened.

                      Peck: I can't speak for Peck. I barely know him. I was quite surprised when I heard he was about to start a new forum—and this was before V. got banned. So, apparently, he was already wanting to spread his wings for a while. While "different strokes for different folks" is true, it is also apparently true that this tighter, more controlled preference has lost you guys arguably the most popular and gifted writer of the forum. This is part of the reason I am taking time to write all this, because I think you guys do care that Peck has moved along (who wouldn't?), and I think some changes in the forum might help heal things up.

                      Regarding an analogy on forum preferences, I use to frequent a coffee shop every day for hours when I was self employed. One day, new management decided to get rid of all the crazy, unruly, and strange characters that sat outside and smoked. You had to run through them like a gauntlet to get to the coffee and inside seating. The new young manager was so proud when he told us he had cleaned up the whole mess by removing the outside tables and chairs and declaring it non-smoking.

                      But a few weeks later, my artist friend (a world famous portrait artist who died recently, God I miss him) who I met there every day turned to me and said, "Those colorful characters were what made this place so interesting." Very few of us go to that coffee shop anymore.

                      BillS: I got nothing against you, Bill. But a light went on for me when I learned you are an engineer. This is a bit of a theme with the admins—able does high level code and servers and such, Hicks has something to do with software I think. All you guys are into stats. And then there's Peck and Shade who don't seem so much inclined that way. Anyway, as the forum has tightened up, it's become more of a clean, controlled, smooth running engine like an engineer might enjoy tinkering with. I'm not picking on you, personally, Bill, I'm just using you to work this stereotype theme. There should be room for both the engineers and the artists—I think it's good that we've had ongoing intramural debates and fun and humor regarding the stats vs. the "eyeballs" gang. Bill, what I like about you is that you seem to try really hard to work through all the arguments and disagreements and try to understand and get to the bottom of it. I can't say that for all the admins. So I think there's a heart there. Different preferences, maybe, but not a different spirit.

                      Hicks: I am probably writing this long post mainly for you. You have addressed a number of my PM questions over the years and done so much work to start the forum and keep it excellent. Also, your heart and emotions show so clearly on your sleeve, and I find that to be much more of a positive quality than a negative one. Heck, one time you posted something quasi-suicidal and left the forum for a while to regroup. I mean, that's real stuff! Anyway, I've always liked you. I've seen you change your views, go back and forth, admit when you're wrong, etc. Now, V. undoubtedly has your number and drove you off the edge. That's unfortunate. It appears that your emotions do once in a while get the best of you, and that's spells trouble for an admin. But I think it's fixable.

                      More on Hicks. For years, I would make posts once in a while exclaiming the greatness of PD admins, not for their moderation policies but because of their restraint. I likened the process the mods had to go through with the Founding Fathers and their balance of free speech with national interests. I saw you guys blazing a trail for how discussion will proceed in the future on internet forums. I was impressed. But then I started to wonder. I think you guys believe you showed restraint with V. and you probably did. But you picked a terrible incident to kick him out with, and that was an indication of how things had moved from an open, free flowing forum to something different. Anyway, my once high ideals moderated. That could change, but right now I'm not as idealistic.

                      Able: For me, probably the aspect of moderation that became most alarming was my sense that infractions and bannings started to become related to people's positions on controversial issues on the board such as Lance vs. Granger debates. Able, I started a new thread with new information on Granger's knee problems and you shut it down, citing the ongoing Granger thread as the place for such posts. (Of course, we've always started new threads when new stories broke on a subject.) Then, that same day, a Granger proponent started a new thread with the same article and you didn't shut him down. I asked you why and you said you were too busy to catch everything.

                      Well, if that's the case, you ought not to be an admin. Frankly I think some of your moderation has been sloppy, some of it high handed, and I don't think you have a very good bedside manner for the job, either.

                      Now, I will say this: when I was in London for a few months I contacted you and you invited me to stay with you if I needed it. I'll never forget that. I have to believe that you are one incredible guy in person. But on this forum, you appear a little scary.

                      And there is another and more important reason why I don't think you should be an admin: people fear you because you run the whole server and have the power to shut the place down. Not that you would: but the perception is there. And because of that perception, you have too much power as an admin, and you never get challenged like all the other admins do. I think PD would do a lot better if you stepped down as an admin.

                      I'd rather visit just one forum than two. My suggestions? Lower the bar a bit and make PD more like locker room. Put up with certain levels of bull***** like I put up with godless profanity. Sit down with Peck and ask him to return to PD and provide his Odd Thoughts like before. Allow V. back and put him on a leash, then wait for a good solid infraction before banning him.

                      None of that may happen. But, anyway, I wrote all this because some sort of bond has developed over the years, I do appreciate you guys and your work, and I feel like you deserved to get a clearer sense of what some of us are thinking and feeling. Peace out.
                      Last edited by McKeyFan; 03-10-2014, 10:05 PM.
                      "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: the reddit forum thread

                        There was a lot of good, passionate, info and constructive criticism in that thread. Shame it was lost.
                        Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                        ------

                        "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                        -John Wooden

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: the reddit forum thread



                          Wow.

                          That is all...no, wait.

                          Actually, maybe this is a sign that everybody just needs to try to forget about the whole thing as if the other thread never happened and try to move on.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: the reddit forum thread

                            I blame the demon of Daylight Savings Time for the thread of deletion.

                            That or Mondays. Thats works for me too.
                            "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

                            "And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: the reddit forum thread

                              Damn....this kinda blows.

                              I was busy most of the afternoon and was coming back to try and gather my thoughts, may I ask what was going on that we were talking about things that apparently occurred in 2012?
                              Last edited by Trader Joe; 03-10-2014, 07:42 PM.


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