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Thread: the reddit forum thread

  1. #1
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default the reddit forum thread

    oh well this is not going well anyway so here is what really happened, (and trust me, i will agree with all people who say i did it on purpose);

    in reply to solozzo's last post that he had not edited his post, i was trying to copy a post from the admin forum, made you ChicagoJ in which he also stated that it was changed on 11-9-2012 (the date of ChicagoJ's post) however, it ended up on the thread but as 1st post, so i removed it, unaware that since it had now de facto become the 1st post (how that is possible is well beyond me so dont ask) it's removal would lead to thread removal, which happened, of course that is irreversible as there is no backup of the thread limited resources make that i dont run a daily or hourly backup of the forum but a weekly, which has not ran but does run today as it did last week (3163522893 2014-03-03 17:02 pdbackup.sql) but as you see it is sizeable (3Gb for a dump)
    so i lost the thread, big deal yes, but as they say, stuff happens. and whlist i am sorry, please feel free to rehash or regurgitate, or just continue like it is still here.
    I am very sorry but there is nothing i can do to make it right and well those who believe me do, those who don't don't.

    Sometimes i wonder why people are even paying for VB software, as to be honest, a not losing this until cache is dumped is not to much to ask for but it has not changed in VB since 2002 i am told by VB.
    Since the thread does not exist in the backup i can not reload the data that exists still in cache and in the database, but has lost its headers back into the forum, had the header existed in there there would be a (very difficult) way of recovery.

    to keep the conversation going, sollozzo you lost part of your memory, see the remarks by ChicagoJ and...(i will add that in once i carefully copy & pasted it away from the forum)

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    Default Re: Infraction for Sollozzo: Unacceptable Comment and/or Content
    He did change it. I was a bit disappointed by the original version but didn't have time to say so. He's too good for that.
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread



    I don't know what to say. That's so unfortunate it's not even funny.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    say whatever you want, i did not set out to do this, i would have had easier ways to get rid of it!
    i fail to see why vb works in this way, how on earth add a post as 1st post in a thread that is 11 pages long? where is the *&^%%^ logic to that?
    and why on earth can't one undo that?

    and done with defending myself, i made a mistake, feel free to hang me.
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    I agree vB has weak spots like that. My question is: Why try to merge anything at all? Why not just copy/paste what you wanted to share to begin with?

    I believe you, it's just I don't know why you were even attempting to do it that way. Seems like a harder way to do it than a copy/paste.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    i copied (moderation tools) because i would omit any chance of people saying i fiddled with it, so i wanted to just add the post to the thread
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    Then that's why it went first. Chronological order. And once it was the first post, removing it removes the entire thread because, to the database, it's seen as the thread starter/creator.

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    **** happens, it does and I have no problem believing you Abel, but holy crap could this have happenned on a worse moment?
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Then that's why it went first. Chronological order. And once it was the first post, removing it removes the entire thread because, to the database, it's seen as the thread starter/creator.
    I can easily see that, now, do you however think i stopped to think about that just before i thought, oh that's not what i want, well i used copy so delete and try again?

    a hint; i did not
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    I was saying that mostly to sort it out myself and for the sake of others.

  12. #10
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    i know, not attacking you, but by definition it is bad db design if something can change the header that easy.
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    Well, luckily, I save my long posts for such times as this . . .



    Travmil said: "Jesus, don't you guys have work to do?"
    I will go ahead and take some time to discuss this whole thing. Take note of what I quoted above. I'll get back to that eventually, but I will address the part of whether we have work to do and a life. Yes, we do. But PD has actually been a big part of my recreational life for several years, so I have a soft spot in my heart for the place and the admins. Therefore I will take the time to share my take on what is going on and why this is happening.

    I'll do this the way Peck analyzes games. By going through each character involved.

    Vnzla: He is lightning rod, a heckler, an insightful poster, an excellent news junkie, and one of the most stubborn people on the planet it seems. I enjoyed his posts, but sometimes thought he went too far. That didn't mean I wanted him banned, it just means I scrolled down real fast when I get tired of him. I can also tell him he's ridiculous (which I've done a couple of times) and then ignore him.

    He is a load to deal with, for sure, and I do have compassion on those who dealt with him here as mods. In fact, I'm sure we'll have our confrontation with him over at PTP at some point, and maybe like parents to grandparents we'll say, "We feel your pain." I don't know. Don't even know if the board over there will last that long.

    I am also not crazy about controversial epitaphs like "Nazi Able" and "cry baby Hicks." I wish he wouldn't use that kind of language. But I tolerate it and move on. And you know what? I've tolerated for years on PD the words on this planet I find absolutely most offensive, disrepectful, and out of bounds—taking Christ's name in vain (refer to post above that I quoted). I've asked mods to look into it, I've PM'd people privately asking them not to use such language (that's actually worked), and I've used satire to try to get rid of it (which also worked a good bit). I'm not trying to bring religion into this discussion, in fact invoking it will just point out some of my own hypocrisy, but I'm trying to make the point that tolerating people and phrases and action you don't like, even detest, is part of making a healthy community work. And, on that score, I've done my own part.

    V. himself was not the problem, just a final straw, I'm guessing. The bigger question is what kind of forum do we want. Many of us just want a fun place to read some insightful posts, some funny posts, some hooligan foolishness, and some passionate fandom. I view it more like a locker room than a press conference. There are many media outlets that provide a press conference atmosphere. Only forums like ours can provide that candid, humorous, real and raw atmosphere. When we start cracking the whip so hard that we lose all that stuff, we really lose the currency of a good forum, imo.

    A locker room can be a tough place. You must have thick skin. You must be able to ignore a heckler. You must be able to tell a guy, "Shut up, idiot" and then move on and not respond to provocations. You must put up with foul language. Once in a while fights break out. But the locker room provides the real skinny on what's happening with the team. It's the place you really want to be.

    I have a real life. I have work. I have church, where I'm a leader. I have kids to father. I have plenty of real life, sober, serious things to address. I come to PD for some fun and a laugh—some insight, sure, but not just that—and for a place to share experiences about Pacer games, etc. I've personally lost a little luster for the place as it has gotten less colorful and more "respectful."

    Hey, different strokes for different folks. If that's the way you guys want to proceed, then fine. I will still be participating. But I am trying to explain here why the new forum happened.

    Peck: I can't speak for Peck. I barely know him. I was quite surprised when I heard he was about to start a new forum—and this was before V. got banned. So, apparently, he was already wanting to spread his wings for a while. While "different strokes for different folks" is true, it is also apparently true that this tighter, more controlled preference has lost you guys arguably the most popular and gifted writer of the forum. This is part of the reason I am taking time to write all this, because I think you guys do care that Peck has moved along (who wouldn't?), and I think some changes in the forum might help heal things up.

    Regarding an analogy on forum preferences, I use to frequent a coffee shop every day for hours when I was self employed. One day, new management decided to get rid of all the crazy, unruly, and strange characters that sat outside and smoked. You had to run through them like a gauntlet to get to the coffee and inside seating. The new young manager was so proud when he told us he had cleaned up the whole mess by removing the outside tables and chairs and declaring it non-smoking.

    But a few weeks later, my artist friend (a world famous portrait artist who died recently, God I miss him) who I met there every day turned to me and said, "Those colorful characters were what made this place so interesting." Very few of us go to that coffee shop anymore.

    BillS: I got nothing against you, Bill. But a light went on for me when I learned you are an engineer. This is a bit of a theme with the admins—able does high level code and servers and such, Hicks has something to do with software I think. All you guys are into stats. And then there's Peck and Shade who don't seem so much inclined that way. Anyway, as the forum has tightened up, it's become more of a clean, controlled, smooth running engine like an engineer might enjoy tinkering with. I'm not picking on you, personally, Bill, I'm just using you to work this stereotype theme. There should be room for both the engineers and the artists—I think it's good that we've had ongoing intramural debates and fun and humor regarding the stats vs. the "eyeballs" gang. Bill, what I like about you is that you seem to try really hard to work through all the arguments and disagreements and try to understand and get to the bottom of it. I can't say that for all the admins. So I think there's a heart there. Different preferences, maybe, but not a different spirit.

    Hicks: I am probably writing this long post mainly for you. You have addressed a number of my PM questions over the years and done so much work to start the forum and keep it excellent. Also, your heart and emotions show so clearly on your sleeve, and I find that to be much more of a positive quality than a negative one. Heck, one time you posted something quasi-suicidal and left the forum for a while to regroup. I mean, that's real stuff! Anyway, I've always liked you. I've seen you change your views, go back and forth, admit when you're wrong, etc. Now, V. undoubtedly has your number and drove you off the edge. That's unfortunate. It appears that your emotions do once in a while get the best of you, and that's spells trouble for an admin. But I think it's fixable.

    More on Hicks. For years, I would make posts once in a while exclaiming the greatness of PD admins, not for their moderation policies but because of their restraint. I likened the process the mods had to go through with the Founding Fathers and their balance of free speech with national interests. I saw you guys blazing a trail for how discussion will proceed in the future on internet forums. I was impressed. But then I started to wonder. I think you guys believe you showed restraint with V. and you probably did. But you picked a terrible incident to kick him out with, and that was an indication of how things had moved from an open, free flowing forum to something different. Anyway, my once high ideals moderated. That could change, but right now I'm not as idealistic.

    Able: For me, probably the aspect of moderation that became most alarming was my sense that infractions and bannings started to become related to people's positions on controversial issues on the board such as Lance vs. Granger debates. Able, I started a new thread with new information on Granger's knee problems and you shut it down, citing the ongoing Granger thread as the place for such posts. (Of course, we've always started new threads when new stories broke on a subject.) Then, that same day, a Granger proponent started a new thread with the same article and you didn't shut him down. I asked you why and you said you were too busy to catch everything.

    Well, if that's the case, you ought not to be an admin. Frankly I think some of your moderation has been sloppy, some of it high handed, and I don't think you have a very good bedside manner for the job, either.

    Now, I will say this: when I was in London for a few months I contacted you and you invited me to stay with you if I needed it. I'll never forget that. I have to believe that you are one incredible guy in person. But on this forum, you appear a little scary.

    And there is another and more important reason why I don't think you should be an admin: people fear you because you run the whole server and have the power to shut the place down. Not that you would: but the perception is there. And because of that perception, you have too much power as an admin, and you never get challenged like all the other admins do. I think PD would do a lot better if you stepped down as an admin.

    I'd rather visit just one forum than two. My suggestions? Lower the bar a bit and make PD more like locker room. Put up with certain levels of bull***** like I put up with godless profanity. Sit down with Peck and ask him to return to PD and provide his Odd Thoughts like before. Allow V. back and put him on a leash, then wait for a good solid infraction before banning him.

    None of that may happen. But, anyway, I wrote all this because some sort of bond has developed over the years, I do appreciate you guys and your work, and I feel like you deserved to get a clearer sense of what some of us are thinking and feeling. Peace out.
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    There was a lot of good, passionate, info and constructive criticism in that thread. Shame it was lost.
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread



    Wow.

    That is all...no, wait.

    Actually, maybe this is a sign that everybody just needs to try to forget about the whole thing as if the other thread never happened and try to move on.

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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    I blame the demon of Daylight Savings Time for the thread of deletion.

    That or Mondays. Thats works for me too.
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    Damn....this kinda blows.

    I was busy most of the afternoon and was coming back to try and gather my thoughts, may I ask what was going on that we were talking about things that apparently occurred in 2012?
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 03-10-2014 at 06:42 PM.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    I found cache in a browser on another machine, so it may look crabby but it is at least like page 9 or 10 of the thread:


    03-06-2014, 02:53 PM #226
    Mourning
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by BillS
    I suppose the confusion can come because ad hominem attacks and disrespect will come more often in those kinds of heated discussions, but people on both sides get nailed with infractions (and people on both sides then complain their opinions are being suppressed). Unless someone builds up 3 infractions, you have to really look to find out if they've been hit with one.


    Which actually brings me to something we've talked about on the admin forum quite a bit. We used to follow a procedure something like:


    - send a PM warning
    - log a WARNING (0 point) infraction
    - log an infraction (1 point)


    for repeated offenses. During the heat of the situation, it seemed very much like we would get a rude response to the PM and then the WARNING infraction would be ignored, so we decided to go straight to the 1 point infraction for the first offense. It takes 3 to get a holiday, so really a single infraction is no big deal by itself - but it seems to me (speaking personally) that this is the point where people's eyebrows shot up and they started thinking admins were cracking down too much (certainly when combined with the attempt to edit posts to leave relevant info while clearing out things we felt were violating the rules).
    Maybe the middleground between some of the disgruntled and the admins is to go from an immediate infraction to say:


    - send a PM warning
    - log an infraction (1 point)


    Now I know you wrote that the PM warning is basically rudely laughed away and you would log a "WARNING" Infraction after that which was pretty much ignored before the real infraction came. Maybe instead of going back to that old system, reinstate step #1 and see how that works? Then again my feeling is this is not about that system, but more about some people feeling/thinking the admins stepping back more.


    Admins stepping back more I personally don't think would work on a forum as big as this and with the passion and emotions that circle around (after a tough loss for example). You run a pretty big risk of this place turning into a jungle or Zoo where the biggest loudmouth would pretty much prevail and all other members are asked to conform to that person or persons like that.


    Either way, I'm fine with how it's run, but maybe a little tinker to take some of the "unhappiness" away would work?


    Offcourse, then you still would have the issue of people being "unhappy" with Abel's responses. I've always been on a good footing with him as far as I can recall, so I have no issue with him at all, but this is something you need to talk through or agree upon as admins and not here in public, unless you want to completely undermine someones (credibility and) status as admin.
    Last edited by Mourning; 03-06-2014 at 02:57 PM.
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    03-06-2014, 03:45 PM #227
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    The infraction system is flawed no matter how it's used. Some laugh it off, some act like you just shot them, the rest somewhere in between. PMing people when there's a problem is an adventure because you never know if they're going to work with you, argue with you, or insult you. The latter two just make things worse.


    Infractions auto-generate a PM to the user, and we can include a message to the user that goes with it, so this sort of all happens at once when there's an infraction given out. But that also means you're still dealing with the gamble of which of the three responses they're going to give you.


    And usually when it's to argue, it's often with an insult tacked on as well.


    And as Bill said, the yellow cards were routinely ignored because they did nothing other than make your post have a little yellow card and it would automatically PM you to tell you about your little yellow card.


    At least with infractions, they tend to get people's attention, and as Bill points out, it takes 3 to actually do anything, so it's still harmless unless you're just racking them up. They expire in 31 days, by the way, so even if you got two infractions on March 6, if you don't get another one until we're at about April 7th or so, it still wouldn't do anything.


    So the way it is now appears to be the best balance without making it too weak or too severe. At least, that's the conclusion we've come to after discussing it before among the admins.

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    03-06-2014, 03:50 PM #228
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by BillS
    Note as well - for all that people have complained about the use of the red font by the admins, we're trying to use it as a way to show when we are speaking as admins and when we are just being Pacer fans.
    Meanwhile, you have the red font stuff. Bill is right that it is meant to distinguish which 'hat we're wearing'.


    And I think this is also one of the reasons some people feel like we over-moderate. Instead of just deleting a post or giving it an infraction, sometimes we try to snip out the stuff that needs to go but at the same time preserving the rest of the post that is actually fine and just part of the discussion. But this technique is obvious and glaring, while infractions and PMs happen more in the background, so I think that contrast has a big impact on the perception of our activities as well.

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    03-06-2014, 03:56 PM #229
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    I just moved into a new place and don't get Internet/TV until today, so I have missed the last few Pacer games and have not been able to keep up with this thread aside from my I-Phone. Let me just say that I've loved PD for 10 years, hence my post count and activity on the site. It's a fantastic sports forum and I appreciate the people who take time to run it for us. That being said, there are times I've disagreed with "management" here, as in the case with vnzla. It happens. I accepted that I was in the minority and that the admins disagreed with me, so I shut up about it after I said what I wanted to say. But IRRC, the admins did tell us to go talk to him somewhere else if we wanted. That's what a few of us did. Most of us stayed active on PD during this period. Those who ha do interest in v had no interest in the site, while those of us who did utilized the redditt. Life went on fine at both places.


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    03-06-2014, 04:56 PM #230
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    BillS, first thanks for replying, not just to me but to the other people with concerns.


    Originally Posted by BillS
    I have to say that the idea that volunteer admins must check their passions at the door ticks me off. I don't know how the thought process got started that the admins ban people willy-nilly who disagree with them - especially when there have been something like 2 bannings in 24 months during a period of extremely heated disagreement over DG and Lance (among other topics), as mentioned before. IF the admins were the level of asshat being implied, then the forum membership should have been reduced by 50% in that time. Meaning that, given the track record, I think the admins here have earned some trust that they can get passionate about a topic and keep it separate from how posters are treated.
    I think you may be confusing me with someone else. I have never tried to imply that admins ban people willy-nilly. That is not my point at all. In fact, in the vnzla thread, I even stated that the admins are probably too accommodating if anything. And indeed, I also stated there that you guys have earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to policing the forum. I have no issues here at all.


    What I'm talking about is something more subtle - that forum members do take cues from leaders, and admins like you guys (for better or worse) are looked upon as leaders. So when able for example (I'm sorry to keep picking on able, who I think is a really nice dude, but well his actions are a bit more obvious) states rather unequivocally that Lance isn't possibly worth more than $6m per year IIRC, people who have a different opinion might feel less inclined to post a topic like "Should we pay Lance the max" because a forum leader has made it clear that it is a ridiculous possibility.


    As for checking your passions at the door... well, I guess that depends on what you want to accomplish as an admin. If it's just policing the forum - and as I've stated I think you guys do a great job here - then yeah maybe this doesn't matter. If you also want to promote discussions, well, I think admins have to be neutral as far as possible, or at least post in a neutral manner. UB for example, does a great job holding his own opinions while not outright rejecting anyone else's. It's perhaps an unfair expectation to have on everyone, but don't you think at least that the forum would be a better place if everyone were more like UB? And I do mean everyone, not just the admins.


    So again, I have no problems with how you guys handle troublesome posters. In fact, I don't think you get thanked enough for the job you've done. So just to be clear about it, thank you for all the hard work you (plural) do.


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    03-06-2014, 05:25 PM #231
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by Hicks
    Meanwhile, you have the red font stuff. Bill is right that it is meant to distinguish which 'hat we're wearing'.


    And I think this is also one of the reasons some people feel like we over-moderate. Instead of just deleting a post or giving it an infraction, sometimes we try to snip out the stuff that needs to go but at the same time preserving the rest of the post that is actually fine and just part of the discussion. But this technique is obvious and glaring, while infractions and PMs happen more in the background, so I think that contrast has a big impact on the perception of our activities as well.
    All of that is a fine line situation IMHO. Deleting a post should never be taken lightly. In fact I think BillS made a major mistake in deleting the post a few pages back in this thread and I think he realized that after the fact. At best it needed moved. People put time and effort into their posts (typically) no matter the point or topic so to see it just disappear or get red-inked away can be seen as a lack of respect. The red-ink deletion should be reserved for major post issues where there has been a direct personal attack of major proportions or it's treaded into racial or religious areas in an extreme negative way. Otherwise, a red ink reply to say "careful", "let's leave this part of the issue alone in this thread", or "let's discuss this in another new/existing thread" should be sufficient. A red ink deletion should never be because of a topic veer or when there's nothing offensive in the words that are written. Or else just send a friendly PM and explain yourself a bit and ask the poster to consider editing the post themselves before you do anything else should always be a possibility.


    Same is true with infractions. You say PM's get ignored. Well, it's still a courtesy to posters not to get a hammer out when all you need is a little glue. You might tell yourself an infraction means nothing by itself except to notify the poster of a line crossed but when you are on the other side of it you wonder why people you consider your friends couldn't have just messaged you a polite message in their own words and took a couple of seconds to explain their thoughts. Or asked for a little dialogue to get everyone on the same page instead of going to an 'infraction'.


    For the people that totally ignore PM's then you start realizing where problems might be. But that said, you also need to give people a little space to blow off steam, cool down, etc. and not make snap decisions or expect a 180deg turn right off the bat even if their initial reaction is not to put their tail between the legs. Be the professional and realize you're dealing with peers not subordinates.


    Also, for small, minor violations IMHO it's better to let a post stand with a mod reply so it stands as guidance for everyone. And every mod 'hat' reply probably doesn't need to be red ink. I think the red ink should be reserved for serious issues when a point really needs to be made. The red ink implies something more than it probably should and again makes it look a lot like a scolding from a superior than maybe it should which then feeds into the feeling of over-moderation.


    .02
    Last edited by Bball; 03-06-2014 at 05:27 PM.
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?


    ------


    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."


    -John Wooden

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    03-06-2014, 05:36 PM #232
    BillS
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by Bball
    All of that is a fine line situation IMHO. Deleting a post should never be taken lightly. In fact I think BillS made a major mistake in deleting the post a few pages back in this thread and I think he realized that after the fact. At best it needed moved. People put time and effort into their posts (typically) no matter the point or topic so to see it just disappear or get red-inked away can be seen as a lack of respect. The red-ink deletion should be reserved for major post issues where there has been a direct personal attack of major proportions or it's treaded into racial or religious areas in an extreme negative way. Otherwise, a red ink reply to say "careful", "let's leave this part of the issue alone in this thread", or "let's discuss this in another new/existing thread" should be sufficient. A red ink deletion should never be because of a topic veer or when there's nothing offensive in the words that are written. Or else just send a friendly PM and explain yourself a bit and ask the poster to consider editing the post themselves before you do anything else should always be a possibility.


    Same is true with infractions. You say PM's get ignored. Well, it's still a courtesy to posters not to get a hammer out when all you need is a little glue. You might tell yourself an infraction means nothing by itself except to notify the poster of a line crossed but when you are on the other side of it you wonder why people you consider your friends couldn't have just messaged you a polite message in their own words and took a couple of seconds to explain their thoughts. Or asked for a little dialogue to get everyone on the same page instead of going to an 'infraction'.


    For the people that totally ignore PM's then you start realizing where problems might be. But that said, you also need to give people a little space to blow off steam, cool down, etc. and not make snap decisions or expect a 180deg turn right off the bat even if their initial reaction is not to put their tail between the legs. Be the professional and realize you're dealing with peers not subordinates.


    Also, for small, minor violations IMHO it's better to let a post stand with a mod reply so it stands as guidance for everyone. And every mod 'hat' reply probably doesn't need to be red ink. I think the red ink should be reserved for serious issues when a point really needs to be made. The red ink implies something more than it probably should and again makes it look a lot like a scolding from a superior than maybe it should which then feeds into the feeling of over-moderation.


    .02
    Appreciate the input.


    How would you feel if we red ink delete (referring to leaving the post but blanking out the response) a reply in thread to something we asked not be continued?


    The issue is that we can ask, but experience has shown people pretty much will reply to the hot button issues even when we ask to play nice. The irony, of course, is the ones who DO play nice are the ones who feel kicked when something more severe is done, while the ones who need the kick wouldn't play nice when given the chance. Doing different things for different people leads to the cries that favoritism is being shown, or how come X got an infraction when Y only got a redline edit.
    BillS


    Another night, another backside-kicking. They just hit you from so many sides, now, in waves. It's like a cavalry, running down hill and trampling you underfoot. You have no tactical advantage, you're just swinging wildly in the mud, and the best strategy might be to play dead.


    They are an absolute onslaught right now.


    ------------ Matt Moore, CBS Sports "Eye On Basketball", 11/12/13


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    03-06-2014, 05:38 PM #233
    Bball
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Let me add before it goes the wrong direction... I don't think 'over-moderation' is really the term I mean. That term was brought up earlier in the thread but I'm not sure it's an accurate word to use exactly to where my thoughts are on the subject.
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?


    ------


    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."


    -John Wooden

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    03-06-2014, 05:45 PM #234
    Bball
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by BillS
    Appreciate the input.


    How would you feel if we red ink delete (referring to leaving the post but blanking out the response) a reply in thread to something we asked not be continued?


    The issue is that we can ask, but experience has shown people pretty much will reply to the hot button issues even when we ask to play nice. The irony, of course, is the ones who DO play nice are the ones who feel kicked when something more severe is done, while the ones who need the kick wouldn't play nice when given the chance. Doing different things for different people leads to the cries that favoritism is being shown, or how come X got an infraction when Y only got a redline edit.
    It would depend on the circumstances. The example from this thread should've just been moved and I know you agree in hindsight. But I don't think it was a hot-button topic so I'm not sure you would've been ignored if you'd just asked that we not discuss that issue in this particular thread when there's already a more appropriate thread. Then as you were writing that I'm sure you would've thought- "Shoot... I should just move this to the other thread and mention I moved it there!"
    So I think the red-ink delete is sometimes a kneejerk response and 'go to' response when it shouldn't be.


    If something truly is a hot button topic then it probably does need deleted if it's something that needs to be forbidden. But how often is that really the case?
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?


    ------


    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."


    -John Wooden

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    03-06-2014, 06:12 PM #235
    BillS
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by Bball
    It would depend on the circumstances. The example from this thread should've just been moved and I know you agree in hindsight. But I don't think it was a hot-button topic so I'm not sure you would've been ignored if you'd just asked that we not discuss that issue in this particular thread when there's already a more appropriate thread. Then as you were writing that I'm sure you would've thought- "Shoot... I should just move this to the other thread and mention I moved it there!"
    So I think the red-ink delete is sometimes a kneejerk response and 'go to' response when it shouldn't be.


    If something truly is a hot button topic then it probably does need deleted if it's something that needs to be forbidden. But how often is that really the case?
    Far too often you can't tell it's the case until a thread has blown up and people are hurling brickbats at each other. Kind of hard to calm it down at that point.


    I think at some level there will always be topic drift, as well as heated rhetoric and hot differences of opinion. In general we don't want that completely stopped, because it is what makes the forum interesting. On the other hand, when a thread bogs down into "you're a liar!" "Yeah, well you're an idiot and a liar!" "Yeah, well you wouldn't know basketball if it bit you in the cojones", then it doesn't only spoil the atmosphere it often ruins the good conversation that was being had. It's frustrating to be following a very good discussion on opposite sides that is interrupted (and often shouted down) by the garbage.


    The ignore improvements should help (and we really wish we had a "force ignore" feature that would have allowed admins to essentially separate two people who are constantly at each others' throats).
    BillS


    Another night, another backside-kicking. They just hit you from so many sides, now, in waves. It's like a cavalry, running down hill and trampling you underfoot. You have no tactical advantage, you're just swinging wildly in the mud, and the best strategy might be to play dead.


    They are an absolute onslaught right now.


    ------------ Matt Moore, CBS Sports "Eye On Basketball", 11/12/13

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    03-07-2014, 07:29 PM
    Hoop
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    03-08-2014, 05:11 AM #236
    Brad8888
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Other than the "ignore this thread" testing thread, the top 2 threads in the currently recorded history (that have survived beyond the Great Server Crash of a few years ago) of the Feedback section are this one and the one regarding vnzla.


    I think that speaks to something that is still present here on PD - namely the willingness to discuss issues for the most part, with the main reason being the bond that continues to exist here as a combined result of many years of high quality work done by the mods as well as the bottom line respect shared by the majority of posters who have come here over the years.


    Obviously, the currently active PD membership, as well as those who are currently bouncing back and forth, or who continue to refer to PD whether in a derogatory fashion or not, all do truly care. Not just about the Pacers, but ultimately about each other, at least as posters on here, as well as the ultimate purpose of the board being a place to celebrate, commiserate, debate, and relate all things Pacers. There may be differences of opinion on enforcement and interpretation of rules, but there still has ended up being a meaningful dialogue that has come out of all of this. Because of this, I believe things will settle and eventually heal.

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    03-08-2014, 09:05 PM #237
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    So I get back on land today and check my email only to see several notifications from Pacers Digest telling me my P.M. inbox is full. I then log onto the digest and see 1 inbox p.m. from Able that was sent to be me on the 3rd. I have tried replying to it on 3 different occasions only to come to the conclusion that my private message system has been disabled as well as having all of my administrative abilities stripped of me while I was out of the country.


    Needless to say I was confused to say the least but then I found this gem of a thread.


    I love the fact that I was tried and found guilty in absentia without ever once being able to present my side of the story. I really love the fact that Bill is acting like he never knew this existed when I told both he and Eric about it after a Pacers game very early on when Danny returned. He even asked me if it meant I wasn't going to post here anymore and I told him no that it was not meant to replace the Digest, it was just a place where Vnzla81 could still talk to people. It's not even a website. Bill just to jog your memory this was the night I showed you the text from vnzla81 saying how good Danny was that night, also to Eric's defense when I told both of them Eric just literally threw his hands in the air and went "phewt" I took that to mean he didn't care as long as he didn't have to deal with vnzla81.


    Now to Able specifically I have tried 3-4 different times to send you a p.m. to address yours to me. I am not able to do it and therefore I will try to send you an email when I get back home on Tuesday.


    I am not at this time able to address many of the concerns raised in this thread because I technically am still away from home and am not supposed to be using the computer for this purpose but I wanted to at least address Able here because he was given some very wrong information.


    To my former fellow admins. I'm not even sure what to say. The fact that I have been a loyal member of this forum for 10 years and an admin. who tried to do his best for at least 7 (I think it was closer to 8) years meant I did not even get consideration of being able to present my own side is mind boggling to me. I certainly understand your displeasure and if roles were reversed I would feel the same way, however I would have given any of you the chance to defend yourself, I didn't even get that.


    If my account is not banned when I return later tonight or tomorrow I will try and respond further.




    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    03-08-2014, 10:29 PM #238
    Mourning
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by Sollozzo
    I just moved into a new place and don't get Internet/TV until today, so I have missed the last few Pacer games and have not been able to keep up with this thread aside from my I-Phone. Let me just say that I've loved PD for 10 years, hence my post count and activity on the site. It's a fantastic sports forum and I appreciate the people who take time to run it for us. That being said, there are times I've disagreed with "management" here, as in the case with vnzla. It happens. I accepted that I was in the minority and that the admins disagreed with me, so I shut up about it after I said what I wanted to say. But IRRC, the admins did tell us to go talk to him somewhere else if we wanted. That's what a few of us did. Most of us stayed active on PD during this period. Those who ha do interest in v had no interest in the site, while those of us who did utilized the redditt. Life went on fine at both places.
    I must have misread your posts about this site, atleast one admin and the commotion in this thread on Pecks board... strange way to show your "appreciation", but whatever.
    Last edited by Mourning; 03-08-2014 at 10:35 PM.
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    03-08-2014, 10:38 PM #239
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by Mourning
    I must have misread your posts about this site, atleast one admin and the commotion in this thread on Pecks board... strange way to show your "appreciation", but whatever.
    One can criticize the admins and still love the overall forum just like one can criticize Barack Obama while still loving the United States.


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    03-08-2014, 11:03 PM #240
    Mourning
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by Sollozzo
    One can criticize the admins and still love the overall forum just like one can criticize Barack Obama while still loving the United States.
    Sure, if you feel like someone on Pecks board giving an admin in here a nickname with "Nazi" is hilarious and want to call that critical...


    And I guess fully enjoying the "unrest" is really showing you appreciate this place and is in fact a way of showing you're being critical...
    2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws


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    03-09-2014, 04:24 PM #241
    able
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Thank you Peck, I will await said email while I check why you can not pm and fix that as we'll.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.


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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    03-09-2014, 05:47 PM #242
    BillS
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by Peck
    I love the fact that I was tried and found guilty in absentia without ever once being able to present my side of the story. I really love the fact that Bill is acting like he never knew this existed when I told both he and Eric about it after a Pacers game very early on when Danny returned. He even asked me if it meant I wasn't going to post here anymore and I told him no that it was not meant to replace the Digest, it was just a place where Vnzla81 could still talk to people. It's not even a website. Bill just to jog your memory this was the night I showed you the text from vnzla81 saying how good Danny was that night, also to Eric's defense when I told both of them Eric just literally threw his hands in the air and went "phewt" I took that to mean he didn't care as long as he didn't have to deal with vnzla81.
    I've been trying to explain to people you weren't around, which is why I changed the title of the thread.


    Also, I didn't think the thing you talked about with vnzla was what this was advertised as. I may have forgotten about it (in my defense it was sort of an in passing thing I wasn't concerning myself with), or I may just not have made the connection between what you were saying and the reddit forum. Ultimately, though, the issue is not the existence of it. It has always been about what looked to the admins here as a concerted effort by people to promote it as a place to go instead of PD.


    We've had a lot of discussion about that perception and some misunderstandings have been cleared up on both sides, so I hope that part is resolved.


    As for the rest, I see Able is trying to fix some things technically and talk to you. I believe Hicks means to as well.
    BillS


    Another night, another backside-kicking. They just hit you from so many sides, now, in waves. It's like a cavalry, running down hill and trampling you underfoot. You have no tactical advantage, you're just swinging wildly in the mud, and the best strategy might be to play dead.


    They are an absolute onslaught right now.


    ------------ Matt Moore, CBS Sports "Eye On Basketball", 11/12/13

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    03-09-2014, 06:21 PM #243
    Hicks
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    I'm sorry that you felt confused, but I certainly didn't anticipate that you would feel that way (well, aside from the PM part, but see the end of my post in regards to that) because you told us 4 months ago that you were done being an admin on PD, and in fact you have not acted in that role since that time, and so I didn't expect this change in your account to come as a surprise. I would have been happy to have you stay as an admin when I came back in November, but once you announced to us that you were done and that you were leaving, it seemed like that was the end of it, and in the months since, it definitely appeared to us that you had moved on, based on your general lack of activity (a little bit of posting, nothing admin-wise) and based on this other space and that you seem to post there more than here, again suggesting you'd moved on.


    When I found out about this reddit forum or space or whatever the proper term for it is, when I found out about it, considering our long history here together, I would have thought that you would have told me and the other admins about it, and invited us to join in the conversation, if even as a courtesy. Speaking for myself, obviously I don't desire to talk to V, but given that that's where you were making most of your posts now, including with other posters as well, I still would have considered stopping by to see what you / they had to say and possibly to chime in. Were we not welcome to be there?


    It appears that you made that site almost two months ago, while you, as I'm now learning, seemed to still view yourself as a PD admin at the same time. That would seem to give the appearance that you were transitioning from here to there in terms of where you would spend your time and where you would be a moderator. That's perfectly fine, but I was left in the dark, and apparently so were the other admins, and so it seems kind of strange to me that you would do things this way while still also viewing yourself as an admin here.


    It seems like there's been multiple misunderstandings here, and I'm sorry for my part in that.


    Regarding your PMs; I think what's happening there is that the amount you had stored/saved exceeds the quota for a standard PD user (the quota for admins is a much higher number), and so when the account was changed, there must have been more saved PMs than the user quota allows. To fix that, I'm going to increase the quota for everyone, and that should free you up to PM again.

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    03-09-2014, 06:30 PM #244
    BlueNGold
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    I've been around here about a decade and I think the tenor of the site has changed over the last 6 months to a year. Just in the last few months, I have placed 3 posters on ignore...nothing I had ever seen the need to do in the past.


    I have a theory. I think the team's success may have brought in a few trolls with the bandwagon fans. Have the number of posters and/or posts increased? While this has happened, I think we have lost a few good posters or maybe they are not as active due to the types of threads and content. Some of the threads out there are being started by people who really shouldn't be starting them. JMHO.


    Another theory is the red font. I have not been a victim of that much, but I do think it raises tension. It creates the feeling that the site is under a police-state...even though the intent of the red font is a good one...that is, to allow the good part of posts to remain (at least that was my understanding). I think the intent isn't meeting its goals. My advice is to simply delete the problem posts. Again, JMHO.


    Finally, I suspect this "environment" has affected the admins...or at least that's my impression. Recently, I have witnessed what I believe are instances of retaliation. I perceive that more infractions are occurring after a bad loss or a trade that said-admin doesn't like. I received my first infraction ever all because I used a phrase that is apparently infraction-worthy. Perhaps I didn't understand the phrase because it seemed descriptive and innocuous to me. I did read the rules early on and probably need to review them again. I will do that. With that said, the PM I received with the infraction included some degree of a threat. I don't think that's helpful either. Many people will react better with a warning or a softer approach for a first infraction. For a second infraction, I can understand a threat being added. Again, JMHO.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 03-09-2014 at 06:36 PM.
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    03-09-2014, 08:06 PM #245
    Sollozzo
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    Originally Posted by Mourning
    Sure, if you feel like someone on Pecks board giving an admin in here a nickname with "Nazi" is hilarious and want to call that critical...


    And I guess fully enjoying the "unrest" is really showing you appreciate this place and is in fact a way of showing you're being critical...
    As with the rest of your nonsensical posts, it is time to show some sources, quotes that support what you are saying other then the oneliner from Bird without reference of the whole convo, where was it posted by a credible source he stopped rehabbing? where was it said he is lazy? it is time to put an end to this nonsense.
    I unequivocally state you are misrepresenting the truth here on purpose, prove me wrong!


    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...=1#post1795887


    That post from able is an example of why some of us have a problem. Look, I get that this is able's joint and he can say whatever he wants. No one has ever challenged the fact that this is his place and he has the freedom to say what he wants when he wants. All of us appreciate the fact that able has hosted this site for so long, and for that I say thanks to him. But over the last couple of months, the admins here have been on a binge about how we don't need to make things "personal" with other posters. There is red font left and right. That's fine and all, but the post of able's that I quoted directly flies in the face of the new rules. If another poster called someone else's posts "nonsensical", then I guarantee you it would be edited out with red font in no time. Vnzla gets an infraction for a "heart and soul" comment about David West which ultimately leads to his demise, yet the host of the website calls other posters nonsensical? Sorry, but that's just incredibly inconsistent and honestly kind of hypocritical.


    I get that this is able's place and he can do what he wants, so there's no need to remind me of that. But you're liable to lose some respect when you don't "practice what you preach". I think that this forum cares very much about what posters feel about it, otherwise there wouldn't be a feedback forum and we wouldn't have this 10 page thread. The admins here certainly don't want to lose long tenured posters, that much I am sure of. When admins don't follow the rules they enforce, respect is quickly lost. And that post I quoted is a perfect example of how biases creep in. Able obviously likes Granger and there's nothing wrong with that. But I guarantee you that if the poster he was responding to had been trashing Lance instead of Granger, able would have been thanking the post instead of calling the poster "nonsensical". He's free to like whoever he wants, but I think that this is a textbook example as to how biases creep in.


    As to the reddit....we were told in the vnzla thread to go talk to him somewhere else since he wasn't welcome at PD. That's what we did. Instead of continuing to complain and fight with people about the vnzla ban, a place was created where those who wanted to talk to him could. This was the best solution for everyone once it was obvious that he wasn't going to be allowed back. Those on PD who hated him didn't have to hear about him anymore, while those who liked him were still able to engage with him. Most of us kept posting at PD. Peck has taken way too much grief in this thread for simply finding a diplomatic solution that was working fine for everyone until this thread erupted.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 03-09-2014 at 08:17 PM.

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    03-09-2014, 08:54 PM #246
    able
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    Re: new reddit forum..
    I think the true perspective with Granger is he will never get close to where he once was, yet he is only 30 yrs. old. If you say that he isn't lazy in the off season and that he didn't want to stop his rehab conditioning even tho his doctors wanted him to continue, you are not only lying to yourself and to me but to Larry and the Pacers FO. Who is fooling themselves here? truthfully, I'm not hating on Danny and I hope he continues a wonderful career, but I have a lot of doubt in him. The writing is on the wall and I didn't put it up there.




    my post above was in reply to this from pacers fan, where did I veer in my answer?
    Why not refer to the posts in answer to your own posts?
    why not post where I called you a Vnzla sidekick?


    Joining your pal in calling me a nazi does you no favours in fact it makes you lose and makes trying to alter perception by posting something without context even more constructed than it already was.


    i called out a poster that was obviously making up his own truths and like every other poster I as entitled to that, independently of where my loyalties are vested.


    it takes a mere backseat to what you are calling some of us on other forums
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.


    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!



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    tried to make it readable

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    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    Well one thing is certain from this thread. abel is the new PD record holder for longest post ever.

    Sadly, that's probably the best thing about this thread...

  24. #18
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    I find this threat supremely humorous and tragic at the same time.

    Honestly, Able. You can be one harsh admin but honestly I kind of respect/like the grumpiness...and the humanness. I consider it personality. No poster on this site is perfect or fair all the time. But there are a lot of interesting personalities in this forum and quite frankly most of the posters in this thread qualify.

    Personally, I think V was one of them too. He may have been irritating and combative but he was both entertaining and insightful as well. No, he was not perfect but he had value. You killed a brother my man...

  25. #19
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    Default Re: the reddit forum thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I find this thread supremely humorous and tragic at the same time.
    Ameliorated to make post less threa"t"ening

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