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Thread: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

  1. #26

    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    I tried to see where we ranked in FGAs per game to see how many shots we get off per game, as that may show that we have less possessions to turn the ball over on due to the game being slowed down.

    What I found was surprising. The 76ers are first in the league with 88.1 FGAs per game, everyone knows they don't play defense, but I am still surprised by that number. The biggest surprise however was that the Miami Heat are last with 77 FGAs per game. Found that to be very interesting. LeBron has had minor complaints about his shot attempts compared to other stars. This probably plays a big role in that, his team shoots the least amount of shots as a whole.

    LeBron shoots 22.7% of his teams shots, Durant shoots 24.8% of his teams shots, Westbrook takes 20.8% of OKCs shots. PG, 21.4% of our shots. Kind of interesting his is a higher number than Westbrooks.

    Sorry this is a bit off topic, but I was looking into this topic and saw this, and did not think this deserved its own thread.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    You make an excellent point and a similar to one I made 4 or 5 weeks ago. Turnovers are not the problem, but they might be the symptom of the problem. Problem being we have some significant limitations offensively.

    To suggest if we limit the turnovers our problems are solved is false IMO. We commit turnovers because we are limited offensively, we don't commit them because we get lazy or don't care. No, we commit turnovers because we have 24 seconds to get a decent shot off and we have some limitations that makes that difficult, so we have to try and force things a lot of the time.
    I remember you making this point, though your second paragraph here expands upon it much more fully than a few weeks ago. Yes, we are not a good offensive movement (man and ball) team. Our more talented passers are more careless and our more careful passers are less talented.

    It's worth asking though if anything can be done by the coaches (and maybe some of the players) so that our ball and man movement is more effective in the half court, and whether there is a way to get more scoring opportunities in the first and secondary breaks. (For one thing, Roy and West always seem to create their own post position in the halfcourt, rather than screening for each other or catching passes on the move in the paint or going to the basket.)

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK, so are you suggesting the Pacers commit more live turnovers than lets say the Heat, Spurs and the teams who rank worse than we do? I have no idea. We would have to see points off turnovers to determine that
    There isnt some Stat site that tracks this specific stat ( Points off of turnovers ) to see where the Pacers ranks among other teams?

    To me, the # of turnovers to a team tells me how well a Team takes care of ( or lack there of ) the ball....but I'd think that points over turnovers gives us a better picture of how well they defend the turnover when it happens.
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  4. #29
    Member Downtown Bang!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    I always feel like possesions & shot attempts matter to the Pacer's chances of winning moreso than most teams.

    A turnover basically negates a shot attempt by the Pacers and in turn creates an extra possesion for the opponent. When that opponent has a hyper efficient & explosive offense like the Heat the impact on winning can be dramatic.

    Offensive rebounds and second chance scoring by the Pacers has the same type of impact on the Heat.

    Assuming both teams regain peak form in the playoffs I still feel like whichever teams exploits the other teams weakness the best and then manages their own weakness well will win the series.

  5. #30
    bleed Blue & Gold PacersPride's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Assist to Turnover ratio is a better stat to use than overall turnovers. Spurs and Blazers are in the top 10 in the league A/T per team.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...tTurnoverRatio

    Pacers rank 26th. OKC has been without Westbrook so to be fair I believe including them in the mix is unfair.


    Agree Pacers definitely lack shooters, but the turnovers specifically in relation to assists is a concern.



    Technically, turnovers imo are basically free points for the other team. Pacers strength is defense, and when the ball is turned over Pacers are not able to get back and setup on defense, essentially making it much easier for the opponent to score.

    Against bad teams we can overcome, but vs a team like the Heat that thrives off of turnovers and scoring in the lane on fast break transition, we will get beat more often than not.

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  7. #31
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    *cough*

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  9. #32
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    Assist to Turnover ratio is a better stat to use than overall turnovers. Spurs and Blazers are in the top 10 in the league A/T per team.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...tTurnoverRatio

    Pacers rank 26th. OKC has been without Westbrook so to be fair I believe including them in the mix is unfair.


    Agree Pacers definitely lack shooters, but the turnovers specifically in relation to assists is a concern.



    Technically, turnovers imo are basically free points for the other team. Pacers strength is defense, and when the ball is turned over Pacers are not able to get back and setup on defense, essentially making it much easier for the opponent to score.

    Against bad teams we can overcome, but vs a team like the Heat that thrives off of turnovers and scoring in the lane on fast break transition, we will get beat more often than not.
    This post doesn't get enough credit. Really solid post, and what I think a lot of the problems stem from.
    @qandrews9428

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  11. #33
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    *cough*
    I concur.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  12. #34
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    What? What happened? What did I miss?

    Shade you might want to try some cough drops, those can stop a bad cough

    Turnovers were pretty bad tonight.

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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Pacers shoot 58%. 76ers shoot 39%. Win by 7....

    67 shots vs 90...

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  15. #36
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    When you have 50% more turnovers than your average yeah it is going to be a problem, but a single game does not make an average.

  16. #37
    bleed Blue & Gold PacersPride's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    This post doesn't get enough credit. Really solid post, and what I think a lot of the problems stem from.
    Appreciate.

    Hence the reason Bird made mention of the TO issue. Is it the only flaw in this offense, absolutely not. But if Legend states turnovers are an issue than Pacers players (PG, Lance - primary initiators should pay heed); however as others mentioned, it goes deeper than just behind the back passes from lance or 50 ft bullet passes to Roy in traffic from PG. Hibbs has bad hands, the offensive structure has "inefficiencies" and as Hicks mentioned, it would be nice to have San Anton's offense in place.. but so would taking a Pacemate to Shulas.


    As Denari mentioned, how many of the TO's were of the "unforced" variety... prob over half and Sixers had I belive 20+ pts off those Turnovers. In spite of the OP stating its not an issue I will defer to Bird on this who as mnay know is of few words.

    Its not the main issue, as again lack of shooting on this team is not at a premium but the turnovers are free points for the other team and as eluded to in this thread less shots in general as well. For a team that struggles to score at times and relies on supreme defense, were best at least getting a solid shot on rim and allow the defense to getback and setup.


    Turnovers may be one of the critical reasons WC teams run us out of gyms. they all thrive on fast break basketball and turnovers are a key ingredient to success for getting easy transition buckets.


    This is no secret. Legend made it clear and its obvious the reasons why .. not allowing our defense to get back and force other teams to play half court basketball is what will get us beat more than anything against an elite team in the postseason.

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  18. #38
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    I disagree with the idea turnovers are not a problem. You can always improve and this is just one aspect of the game.

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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    No system in the world generates turnovers. It always comes from inability to handle defensive pressure, inability to handle the ball, and sloppy passes.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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  21. #40
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    When you have 50% more turnovers than your average yeah it is going to be a problem, but a single game does not make an average.
    t

    It is those games where you are outside your norm that cost you especially against ball hawking teams. I believe unless they change the way they play that it WILL do
    them in during the playoffs. It cost them last year against the Heat. What is the solution? Maturity? Coaching? Removing the main culprits?
    I am really surprised at the number of un-forced turnovers.
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    I would rather see them take a contested shot than trying to force a pass. At least the shot has a chance and can be rebounded. A turnover is a double wammy, no shot on goal
    and no chance to rebound and the other team probably scores off the Pacers transition defense. Actually make that a triple wammy.
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  23. #42

    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    How can you watch our team play and say that turnovers are not a problem? Of course they are. We eventually lost against the Heat last season because we couldn't counter their press.

    So there are other top teams with as many or more turnovers. Well, those teams have a problem with turnovers too.

  24. #43
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Its actually both turnover and shooting that is the problem. Other top teams have turnovers up with the Pacers as well, but there are 2 factors that say its not such a problem for them. 1. Those teams play at a faster pace, and thus get more possessions. 2. They shoot a higher percentage from the floor than the Pacers.

    Turnovers are the worst thing that can happen to the Pacers because 1. they play at the slower pace, thus less possessions per game. 2. They are not shoot a high percentage from the field. Last night was prime example. They shot 58% and still nearly lost the game because of the points off turnovers.


    If they cut down on the turnovers, they can survive not shooting well.
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  26. #44
    Member Downtown Bang!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    2nd chance points were a big part of the Pacer offense in the playoffs last year. It will be again this year when the pace grinds to a halt as long as they can maintain possesion long enough to get a shot up.

    During games Quinn has been beating it to death lately but he is 100% right. This team should be moving the ball and their feet early in the shot clock. Get the defense in motion and probe for a weakness. PG & Lance are so much better driving the ball off the catch than they are after pounding it in one spot for 3 or 4 dribbles. Same with post entry. This team is terrible with contested post entry passes off the dribble but when they rotate the ball and throw into the post off the catch it rarely results in a poor shot or a deflected pass and then turnover.

    Anyone else notice lately how deadly Lance can be when he takes his guy down into lane traffic without the ball? He is so big and strong and can completely seal his guy off the ball on the catch. He also gets the ball up on the glass so fast after the catch that the help is usually late and his defender has to take the foul or watch him score. I'm honestly much more impressed by what I see from Lance off the ball in the half court lately than what I see of him with the ball in the half court.

    I just don't get why so many of the Pacer possesions start with someone pounding the ball on the perimeter looking for a P & R or trying to force something into the post. If this is by design then some staff changes need to be made before next season.
    Last edited by Downtown Bang!; 03-15-2014 at 09:55 AM.

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  28. #45
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Bang! View Post
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    I just don't get why so many of the Pacer possesions start with someone pounding the ball on the perimeter looking for a P & R or trying to force something into the post. If this is by design then some staff changes need to be made before next season.
    Cause PG and Lance are looking to get theirs and Vogel hasn't got the guts to reel them in.

    George Hill pounds the rock too, but atleast he recognizes when the interior man has been sealed off by West or Hibbert, opening up a easy drive baseline to basket. Lance and Paul want everyone to clear out and give them space. This is why i've grown Tired of both Lance and Paul, because they only play off their talent and not with their heads. Both have terrible shot selection, and I cringe every time they iso and step back for a fade away. Its such a bad shot, doesn't matter if it goes in or not.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

  29. #46

    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    How can you watch our team play and say that turnovers are not a problem? Of course they are. We eventually lost against the Heat last season because we couldn't counter their press.

    So there are other top teams with as many or more turnovers. Well, those teams have a problem with turnovers too.
    The Pacers were in the middle of a long stretch of mediocre play when this post went up. The point was that the Pacers were turning over the ball at the same rate as they were when they won a bunch of games. Some things got worse during that stretch, but turnovers weren't one of them.

    There is a difference between saying "The Pacers could cut down on some turnovers and make up for other areas where they are failing" and "The Pacers are turning the ball over more, and that is why they are losing". The former is true. The later isn't.

    Stupid analogy alert: Let's say you are doing well financially while eating out a lot. Then, you had an emergency and racked up a bunch of medical bills. You found yourself in financial trouble. You could make up for it by eating out less, but eating out isn't the problem.

    Yeah, that was cheesy. But that's the way I see it.

    Now, if the Pacers turn the ball over 21 times every game for the rest of the season - we got a problem.

  30. #47
    Member Downtown Bang!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Cause PG and Lance are looking to get theirs and Vogel hasn't got the guts to reel them in.

    George Hill pounds the rock too, but atleast he recognizes when the interior man has been sealed off by West or Hibbert, opening up a easy drive baseline to basket. Lance and Paul want everyone to clear out and give them space. This is why i've grown Tired of both Lance and Paul, because they only play off their talent and not with their heads. Both have terrible shot selection, and I cringe every time they iso and step back for a fade away. Its such a bad shot, doesn't matter if it goes in or not.
    I agree on on Lance & Paul. Teams have figured out PG on the P & R. They just blitz him and know the odds are good they will force a poor decision of some type. Lance will struggle until he proves he can hit the perimeter shot with consistancy.

    I like G. Hill & West in the P & R. Seems like good things come of that more often than not.

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  32. #48
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are turnovers really a problem for the Pacers. I say nope

    Frank needs to change PG's controller back to 2k13 settings. Right stick flashy passing is not his friend....
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