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Thread: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Well, no, you responded to a post by someone who listed his flaws (vehemently, but not everyone is going to love the coach) with the implication that it was a call for Vogel to be fired. Which was neither the point of the post nor the thread.
    I never once implied that it was a call for his removal, I was just being facetious. My entire stance was that it's pretty damn ridiculous to indicate he's not a very good coach, and if his team would just stop winning, dammit, people would finally see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    On topic, if he's pretty damn good and he's going to win a ring someday, what is seeming to stop that from happening right now?
    Right now? It's the middle of the season. He can't technically win a ring "right now". Gotta wait until May/June. Even if he doesn't win this year, he's what, 40? He's got a whole 3 years under his belt? He's shown improvement, like his players, every year? He's going to be a stud coach, if he isn't already.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Do you think it's all on the players and he just needs to keep doing what he's doing? Does he need better players? Does he need to make any changes himself to get to that point?
    Woah Trigger. Four questions in 10 seconds. Your brain is at Ludicrous Speed. Trying to wrap my head around this, I think everything is fine; we have a great coach; we have good players, and yes, they need to just keep plugging and work it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I mean, there are lots of coaches in NBA history who have been great with the players and have great season records but never manage to win a ring. Do you think Vogel's flaws (whatever you think they might be) put him in that category? Why or why not?
    Vogel doesn't have many flaws, relatively speaking amongst NBA coaches. If all people can nit-pick are time-outs and substitutions (which is debatable at best), then people are grasping. He has a great system for playoff success. He emphasizes defense and rebounding and half-court sets, but he lets his guys get out and run on occasion. It's a successful balance and system. He's a fantastic leader; he's a fantastic speaker; he instills confidence with encouragement and praise, but he's firm when he needs to be. His demeanor is awesome. He's grown his young guys; he's groomed All-Stars; his team pushed the eventual champion and best player in the world to game 7. He has no fatal flaw that I know of. Perhaps he has some room for growth in offensive sets? We're a better offensive (and defensive) team than last year.

    If there was ONE thing I wish he would instill in his team, it's to shut up about the refs, himself included. But that is fixable and minor.

    There's nothing to be worried about.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 03-07-2014 at 01:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Frank Vogel has a top 10 winning percentage ALL TIME. I'm pretty sure he is like 6 or 7 right now.

    I just looked. To get onto the official NBA list, you have to have 500 games coached at least the one on NBA.com.

    Spo just got on last year. He had a 66% winning percentage in his career. This placed him 6th on the list at the time, but I think with this season included Spo has gone past Red Auerbach into 5th.

    Frank has won 64% of his games so far, and is actulaly hurt by the half season to start his career and the strike shortened season, either way, if you put Frank on the list his winning percentage would be 7th right now. Right behind Auerbach. That is the kind of pace Frank is on. Assuming this core stays together and wins at above a 60% pace over the next 3 years (Jerry Sloan is 10th all time in winning % at 60.4%), Frank will easily place himself on this list somwhere between 5 and 8 most likely. To put this in perspective, if the Pacers average a record of 49-33 over the next 3 years, Frank will easily end up in the top 10, and 49-33 seems, right now at least, conservative.

    Carlisle is I believe 12th all time with coaches minimum 500 games coached at 58.7%.


    Bill as you point out not all of the guys in the top 10 have won a title, but the top 8 all did (Jackson, B. Cunningham, K.C. Jones, Popp, Spo, Auerbach, Riley, Heinsohn). The only two guys in the top 10 who didn't or haven't yet, are Adelman at 9 and Sloan at 10, and I think we would both agree that those two guys gave their teams plenty of chances.

    My point? If you have a guy that is going to probably put himself on this list sometime in the next 3 years, there is just absolutely no reason to even consider punting on him, and on top of that Frank is only 40 years old!

    All that being said, I'm not saying you can't talk about his flaws, all coaches have them, but to suggest that the only reason we think Vogel is a good coach is because we are winning (which LOL) is pretty silly, which is I think what Kid Minny is taking issue with.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 03-07-2014 at 12:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    This may or may not be a Vogel problem (could be the players), but do you think it's possible for this roster to have a different (to some degree, maybe a little, maybe a lot) offense that is both A) More effective than this one and B) More entertaining to watch?

    Because to be perfectly honest: As much as I love this season for all of the wins... our offense can be really dull, and that's when it's doing okay. It's unbearable when we can't hit many shots (and I realize that's true of every offense, but my point is even on a good day it ain't too pretty).

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Our team reminds me so much of the younger Spurs teams. They were the defensive boring team that everyone wondered if they could score enough. They rebounded well, they defended well and they won themselves some championships. As they aged together, their players suddenly became great offensive players, now their ball movement is among the best in the NBA (the best IMO) and they are now redefined as a veteran offensive team who moves the ball well and seemingly knows where everyone will be without even checking.

    I think if the Pacer stay committed and grow together, then one day we will view them the same way.

    The issue is this though when comparing the two teams directly, Tim Duncan could bail the Spurs out a lot when their perimeter offense failed. Roy did this A LOT in the playoffs against Miami last year and to an extent the year before so as long as he is typical playoff Roy it won't be an issue. If Roy doesn't do it though, then it either falls on West or PG must be able to score consistently out of his mid range isos. We're a lock for the ECFs either way, but if we want a ring one of those two things has to happen to really mirror how those young Spurs teams functioned.

    For the record, I see Lance as our Manu and I still personally think G. Hill will continue to grow and become better. I would like to see him get more freedom offensively, but he must first develop the personality for that.

    Those are a lot of thoughts and not all of them pertain to Vogel, but it does address my thoughts on our offensive "issues". This is still a growing team on that end of the court.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    This may or may not be a Vogel problem (could be the players), but do you think it's possible for this roster to have a different (to some degree, maybe a little, maybe a lot) offense that is both A) More effective than this one and B) More entertaining to watch?

    Because to be perfectly honest: As much as I love this season for all of the wins... our offense can be really dull, and that's when it's doing okay. It's unbearable when we can't hit many shots (and I realize that's true of every offense, but my point is even on a good day it ain't too pretty).
    I think its definitely possible for this offense to be more effective and more entertaining, just go back and watch the game against the Spurs. If I was Vogel I would show that game tape as what this team is capable of when they have good off-the-ball movement and passing.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sleeze View Post
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    I think its definitely possible for this offense to be more effective and more entertaining, just go back and watch the game against the Spurs. If I was Vogel I would show that game tape as what this team is capable of when they have good off-the-ball movement and passing.
    And you see it in fits and starts, I don't have the splits but I actually think the team has been much more effective offensively as a whole since January 1. I think the defense has suffered a bit for it, but I do think that's the case.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I don't mind a "boring" offense (it's in quotes because one man's boring is another man's intricate tactical scheme), I just want an offense that works well.

    As a simplified measure, I look at shooting percentage and at length of time without a basket.

    A shooting percentage that is consistent (during a single game) in the mid-30% is the bottom of OK, because it puts a lot of pressure on the defense. A shooting percentage that for the game is over that BUT has a huge differential between quarters (say, 20% then 50%) is an indicator of a possible problem. I'd prefer a percentage that bottoms out in the mid-30s and averages in the mid 40s. (and you can make that eFG% if you want, the numbers aren't an absolute line).

    A good offense should have some go-to plays to break a gap between baskets (even if it is just to draw a foul), and should have the ability to stabilize a spiraling shooting nightmare. Great defense might keep those from working, but the inability of the players to execute it should not.

    I don't see that capability in this offense. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen that capability in a Pacers offense since Rick Carlisle and seldom before those stints (both as coach and as Bird's asst). The Pacers always seem to be a live and die by the jump shot team. This year in particular we seem to live by the defense and die by the jump shot.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    PPG / FG%
    Oct 96.0 / 45.3
    Nov 97.2 / 44.8
    Dec 100.4 / 46.9
    Jan 98.7 / 44.7
    Feb 101.2 / 45.0
    Mar 94.8 / 43.5

    OPPG / OFG%
    Oct 88.5 / 39.3
    Nov 85.2 / 38.6
    Dec 92.8 /44
    Jan 93.5 /41.5
    Feb 93.6 /41.9
    Mar 98.8 / 45.9
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    If we can mix the February offense with the November defense, watch out.

    What you see in reality though is a team that since December 1 on has been pretty consistent in every way minus a two game sample size in March.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    The bottom line is that we played way over our heads for the first two months of the season and now things have evened out a bit. Wasn't this team on track for mid to upper 60's in the win column? They are good, but not that good.

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  17. #86
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The bottom line is that we played way over our heads for the first two months of the season and now things have evened out a bit. Wasn't this team on track for mid to upper 60's in the win column? They are good, but not that good.
    I think the opposite. I think they are *really* good, and right now they are in just a bit of a funk/lull. The norm will be when they return to form, which I firmly believe will happen.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    PPG / FG% / eFG% / TS%
    Oct 96.0 / 45.3 / 51.4 / 57.0
    Nov 97.2 / 44.8 / 49.3 / 53.7
    Dec 100.4 / 46.9 / 51.6 / 56.2
    Jan 98.7 / 44.7 / 48.4 / 52.3
    Feb 101.2 / 45.0 / 49.0 / 53.9
    Mar 94.8 / 43.5 / 47.2 / 52.3

    OPPG / OFG% / OeFG% / OTS%
    Oct 88.5 / 39.3 / 43.3 / 46.2
    Nov 85.2 / 38.6 / 41.9 / 46.6
    Dec 92.8 /44 / 47.3 / 51.5
    Jan 93.5 /41.5 / 45.7 / 49.6
    Feb 93.6 /41.9 / 46.4 / 49.8
    Mar 98.8 / 45.9 / 50.7 / 53.6
    Added a few stats to give greater insight.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I think the opposite. I think they are *really* good, and right now they are in just a bit of a funk/lull. The norm will be when they return to form, which I firmly believe will happen.
    I think they are really good on a lower 60's level, but not on an upper 60's "let's start threads about if they can match the 96 Bulls" level.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Oh ya, I definitely agree, I was one of those who said 70-wins was beyond reasonable expectations. I've always been in that lower-60s to mid-60s range.
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    It's not like Indy is the only one. We're still the top record in the league. Miami just suffered their second loss in a row when they had the opportunity to overtake us. OKC hasn't looked the same, 6-4 in their last 10 (said it weeks ago they and Durant couldn't sustain that ridiculous output forever).

    Could argue that the three teams playing the best ball right now, which was almost the opposite a month or two ago, are Houston, SA, and LA Clippers.

    It's just like a game; it's a game of runs.
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The bottom line is that we played way over our heads for the first two months of the season and now things have evened out a bit. Wasn't this team on track for mid to upper 60's in the win column? They are good, but not that good.

    when we were 33-8 we were on pace to win 66 game.

    I don't care if our offense is entertaining. (not sure what is entertaining) I love when we shoot about 45 free throws in a game. That might not be entertaining but extremely effective

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sleeze View Post
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    I think its definitely possible for this offense to be more effective and more entertaining, just go back and watch the game against the Spurs. If I was Vogel I would show that game tape as what this team is capable of when they have good off-the-ball movement and passing.
    Or the game against Houston in December. My problem with Vogel though is that he doesn't even understand the basic coaching mantra of searching the bench for offense. If your bench got you back into a 28 to 8 game. Clearly, common sense would tell you the effective pieces of that bench need to play right off the bat in quarter number 3. And then you add into that, a player who can hit the long ball (Copeland). Then around quarter 4, you try (depending on how the flow of the game is by then)...to drip-drip a few of the other starters back in.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    4 games in 5 nights. I'm not worried about it.

    Still lead Miami who just dropped 2 straight.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The bottom line is that we played way over our heads for the first two months of the season and now things have evened out a bit. Wasn't this team on track for mid to upper 60's in the win column? They are good, but not that good.
    I am still sticking with 63 wins. I think we have one more 13 out of 15 type streak in us.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I don't think we have the personnel to be a great offensive team. When Roy's playing like he is we're basically playing 4v5 on that end. We've got to be one of the worst pick and roll teams in the league too because of personnel. Frank can stress some things that we can do better, but Imo his hands are somewhat tied when it comes to scheming offense with this group.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    I don't think we have the personnel to be a great offensive team. When Roy's playing like he is we're basically playing 4v5 on that end. We've got to be one of the worst pick and roll teams in the league too because of personnel. Frank can stress some things that we can do better, but Imo his hands are somewhat tied when it comes to scheming offense with this group.


    I think we can play pick and roll with West. Roy? I think Roy can catch the ball he just needs a super accurate point guard feeding him. We don't have that. So we have to make do. But I think we need to run more plays to get Roy deeper into the paint. We have shooters, Vogel just needs to run the right plays to get them open. We have players who could kill teams in the mid range. Just gotta run the right plays.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    Or the game against Houston in December. My problem with Vogel though is that he doesn't even understand the basic coaching mantra of searching the bench for offense. If your bench got you back into a 28 to 8 game. Clearly, common sense would tell you the effective pieces of that bench need to play right off the bat in quarter number 3. And then you add into that, a player who can hit the long ball (Copeland). Then around quarter 4, you try (depending on how the flow of the game is by then)...to drip-drip a few of the other starters back in.
    What NBA teams play their bench starting the second half without some sort of injury or other extenuating circumstance? Halftime is the great equalizer - it is essentially like starting the game over. One would expect a hot lineup to have cooled off. Nearly every team I've ever seen comes back with their starters at halftime no matter how they are doing unless there is some reason - and it makes sense because usually your bench brought you back against the other team's bench, so bringing them in against the starters would be counterproductive.
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  36. #98

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    What NBA teams play their bench starting the second half without some sort of injury or other extenuating circumstance? Halftime is the great equalizer - it is essentially like starting the game over. One would expect a hot lineup to have cooled off. Nearly every team I've ever seen comes back with their starters at halftime no matter how they are doing unless there is some reason - and it makes sense because usually your bench brought you back against the other team's bench, so bringing them in against the starters would be counterproductive.


    I never said start the whole bench. But starting Turner and Copeland at SG and PF for example. Turner is already starting quality. Guy started in Philly remember? Copeland guarding McBob? No real drop off there. Yesterday, Popovich started Diaw over Splitter. Simply because he felt Diaw was a better match up for Bosh than Splitter their usual starting center. I'd like to see Vogel be bold like that on those rare occasions when the starters are fatigued or some aren't focused enough.

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  38. #99
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    I never said start the whole bench. But starting Turner and Copeland at SG and PF for example. Turner is already starting quality. Guy started in Philly remember? Copeland guarding McBob? No real drop off there. Yesterday, Popovich started Diaw over Splitter. Simply because he felt Diaw was a better match up for Bosh than Splitter their usual starting center. I'd like to see Vogel be bold like that on those rare occasions when the starters are fatigued or some aren't focused enough.
    So you want to bench David West to start the second half? Wonder what that would do for team chemistry.

    And no West isn't Splitter

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    So you want to bench David West to start the second half? Wonder what that would do for team chemistry.

    And no West isn't Splitter


    Copeland is a Pacer so it wouldn't affect chemistry. Besides, it would be a one time deal. If players can't understand you're shooting 2 for 12, and maybe we wanna get back into the game quickly with a PF who can shoot the three, then their egos are too inflated. Besides. I also suggested depending on how the games flow changes, West would be reinserted back into the game at the PF spot in the 4th quarter. PG would be ready to get a breather by then. So maybe slide Cope to the 3 at that point. Then yank him mid 4th, and bring PG back in.

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