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Thread: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    What the hell? Just run Watson, Butler, Cope, Turner and Mahinmi out there and see what happens once! Scola can replace up to three of them pending which one is sucking.
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    First let me say that I like Frank.
    I am a defensive guy.

    But JFC we are amazingly bad on offense.

    First, I wonder about our conditioning.
    It is the only thing I can see to account for most of our problems.
    We SUC on back to backs.
    We STAND around way to much on offence.
    We go one for ten with astonishing regularity.
    Coach is a nice guy.
    Nice guys are not ball breakers.

    I also see fairly few plays that even resemble a PLAY. Guy with the ball stands and looks. Roy flashes to the middle. That looks pointless...
    Guys shuffle around (I can't get open so I'll just stand here).
    Time clock runs down...hero ball time and we are not good at that.
    That has got to be coaching.

    Also I notice too often we come back from a time out and get nothing- but the usual last second three.
    I remember when Larry Brown called a time out we would come back with something cool and score.
    It was pretty much the rule.

    I could say well maybe our guys are not too bright and cant execute. But two things about that.
    First it is the coaches job to make a plan they can execute.
    The other thing is If i stood there watching pathetic lazy hero ball and my plays were not being run- you bet I'd yank some guys. Nope. Same ol' ugly street ball lookin' offense way way too long.

    Personally, I've seen enough. This may be...IS... our cities best chance to win it.
    If I'm LB
    I get a strong O guy (maybe a couple) here for our next practice.

    Next season may well be tooooo late!

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  5. #53
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Pretty easy fix in the offseason, bring in an assistant coach who can really put together an offense.
    Yeah. I'm wondering if right now Nate McMillan is that guy, because I thought I heard that when he was the head coach in Portland it was a slow/boring half court offense as well.

    Not sure who would be ideal to add to the fold, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    What scares me shitless is most arm chair coaches biggest criticisms of Frank are the same criticisms most of us dummys had for Rick Carlisle, and well, we were wrong on that one.
    I was thinking the same thing. I hope it doesn't get as bad as back then.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Teams go through rough spells. Frank has repeatedly proven himself. We have one of the best coaches in the league. Enough with the whining.

    You want to know a reason why the team might be struggling? I'd guess (like I said) bringing in two new guys and getting rid of Danny is a huge part of it. You just don't screw up chemistry on a championship caliber team. That being said, they'll work through it and get themselves together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    You want to know a reason why the team might be struggling? I'd guess (like I said) bringing in two new guys and getting rid of Danny is a huge part of it. You just don't screw up chemistry on a championship caliber team. That being said, they'll work through it and get themselves together.
    While I agree that Frank will probably right the ship eventually, I don't think the trade is the (sole) factor. We were struggling before the trade. In fact, the team's struggles may have prompted the trade in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by solid View Post
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    But JFC we are amazingly bad on offense.
    Actually no. At worst we are mediocre (21st in the league on offensive efficiency, bottom third sure but not that far from the middle). More importantly, the starters' offense compares favorably with other teams' starters, over the season anyway and during previous seasons as well. So at least some parts of our offense is ok, even elite.

    I think we have to look at Paul George's slump. This year Frank placed a lot more responsibility on him than before, and his stellar performance in the early months carried us to a hot start. But he's been shooting at ~40% since January (and even worse recently) while still having high usage numbers on offense. Worse, his defensive numbers have dipped too. Is it a case of overwork? Has George been scouted by the opposition? Does Frank need to find new ways to get him going? Probably a little bit of everything.

    Here are Paul George's splits btw. The splits per month seem particularly interesting

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/splits/2014/

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    I think we have to look at Paul George's slump. This year Frank placed a lot more responsibility on him than before, and his stellar performance in the early months carried us to a hot start. But he's been shooting at ~40% since January (and even worse recently) while still having high usage numbers on offense. Worse, his defensive numbers have dipped too. Is it a case of overwork? Has George been scouted by the opposition? Does Frank need to find new ways to get him going? Probably a little bit of everything.
    I agree with everything you said, but this especially. Paul George is 23 and is expected to be the best offensive and defensive player on a championship team. I know he's said he wants that responsibility, but that's a heavy load to bear and there's only one guy in the entire league who's doing it right now.

    If we were to win an NBA title this year, it would be almost unprecedented to have your best player be that young and not have another Hall of Famer helping him out.

    Here are the players who have won championships in the last thirty years as the best player on their team, and the age they won their first title as the number one option:

    Kobe 30
    Hakeem 31
    Dirk 32
    Paul Pierce 30
    Michael Jordan 28
    LeBron James 28
    Shaq 28
    Isiah Thomas 28
    Moses Malone 28
    Sheed/Ben Wallace 29, or maybe Chauncey at 27. Not sure who is considered the best player on that team

    The exceptions: Tim Duncan (22) , Magic Johnson (20) and Larry Bird (24). Duncan and Magic played with David Robison and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, respectively, and Larry was just a badass (although he didn't win Finals MVP until he was 28). So basically, the key to winning a title is to be at least 28 years old, or have one of the best centers in NBA history on your team, or be Larry Bird.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I'll not go on our ranking but on how we are rank!

    Yes we did average, maybe a little better for awhile.
    But that's been awhile.
    Our offense sucks right now. At least for large stretches almost every game.

    I can not explain how a guy like PG can go 1 for 10 or why po' Roy can't get position, catch a freakin' pass, or hit half his bunnies; so I can not hang this on Frank alone.

    But I've been watching, and we suck.

    And almost worse than that our all world defense that I was thrilled with several weeks ago is NOT all that any more. Guys have figured out how to penetrate in to our mid-section for mid rangers or a dish for a dunk. Way too much. And likely because of that the perimeter has opened up.
    I am not at all encouraged.

    Two months ago I thought we had the best team in the world AND would get better.

    I'd have a hard time putting us in the top ten right now.

    As always: JMO

    Btw I loved Carlisle and thought we we're fools to let him walk.
    Last edited by solid; 03-07-2014 at 03:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    I agree with everything you said, but this especially. Paul George is 23 and is expected to be the best offensive and defensive player on a championship team. I know he's said he wants that responsibility, but that's a heavy load to bear and there's only one guy in the entire league who's doing it right now.

    If we were to win an NBA title this year, it would be almost unprecedented to have your best player be that young and not have another Hall of Famer helping him out.

    Here are the players who have won championships in the last thirty years as the best player on their team, and the age they won their first title as the number one option:

    Kobe 30
    Hakeem 31
    Dirk 32
    Paul Pierce 30
    Michael Jordan 28
    LeBron James 28
    Shaq 28
    Isiah Thomas 28
    Moses Malone 28
    Sheed/Ben Wallace 29, or maybe Chauncey at 27. Not sure who is considered the best player on that team

    The exceptions: Tim Duncan (22) , Magic Johnson (20) and Larry Bird (24). Duncan and Magic played with David Robison and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, respectively, and Larry was just a badass (although he didn't win Finals MVP until he was 28). So basically, the key to winning a title is to be at least 28 years old, or have one of the best centers in NBA history on your team, or be Larry Bird.
    This right here is honestly my biggest concern about trading away Granger. Veteran teams with veteran players win championships, not young teams.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Teams go through rough spells. Frank has repeatedly proven himself. We have one of the best coaches in the league. Enough with the whining.

    You want to know a reason why the team might be struggling? I'd guess (like I said) bringing in two new guys and getting rid of Danny is a huge part of it. You just don't screw up chemistry on a championship caliber team. That being said, they'll work through it and get themselves together.
    I understand this point of view, but I think the struggles (certainly with the offense) started well before the Granger trade. There might be some correlation with the Bynum acquisition, but correlation is not causation, and I'd have to be convinced bringing a guy in who wasn't working out (at the time) except on his own would do anything to anyone (except maybe Ian, who does seem to have perked up in response).

    The reason for the thread, though, is that rough times expose systemic issues that, if fixed, either help get through those times or even get the team back on track.
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I was thinking the same thing. I hope it doesn't get as bad as back then.
    Especially since that whole team ended up just tuning him out completely.

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    Could it be that this Pacers team just isn't that talented offensively. When I judge a team's halfcourt offense I look for players who can score even when they are well defended.

    How many players do we have that can score even when well defended? Roy cannot, Hill cannot, Lance cannot yet. Lance takes advantage of what the defense gives up especially in the open court, but in the halfcourt he can be defended and stopped.

    So that leaves us West and PG. Both players can score when well defended fairly well. West is the best passer we have in the starting five (yes better than lance) and that is why a lot of our offense runs through West. PG is capable of getting hot and can score seemingly at will, but I think teams are focusing their defense on him and giving him a lot of trouble.

    I think our offensive talent is average at best among the playff teams. And I don't think that has anything to do with coaching or offensive system. We are limited offensively especially for an elite team. Coaches IMO are maximizing our offensive talent.

    OK, let me list the teams starting with the top teams. I think all these teams have more offensive talent than we have.

    Heat
    Spurs
    Thunder
    Clippers
    Rockets
    Blazers

    I think clearly without question those teams are better offensively and if you switch coaching staffs with any of those teams it wouldn't change that.

    I think you could make the argument that Mavs, Warriors, Suns and even T-Wolves are better offensively than we are and once again it isn't because of coaching. And I have not mentioned any other eastern conference teams.

    I just think we need to be realistic with what we have. We need to be the best defensive team or we have no chance to win anything.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-07-2014 at 09:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    One thing I'll mention here. If the Pacers and the Heat end the regular season in a tie. And if you assume the two teams split their two remaining head to heads. The next tie breaker is conference record and the Pacers are 3 full games up on the Heat (3 in loss and 3 in win columns).

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Could it be that this Pacers team just isn't that talented offensively. When I judge a team's halfcourt offense I look for players who can score even when they are well defended.

    How many players do we have that can score even when well defended? Roy cannot, Hill cannot, Lance cannot yet. Lance takes advantage of what the defense gives up especially in the open court, but in the halfcourt he can be defended and stopped.
    That's the argument I've been using for years as to why we need a more structured offense that is more precisely executed. Players who aren't very good when well defended - and that means passing as well as shooting - need help to get open AND need help for other players to get open to receive passes.

    What I have been noticing is a fatal hesitation by every player when the ball changes hands. No one is quite sure what to do next, which gives defenses a chance to adjust to what happened. It doesn't do any good to pass to the open man if he just stands there until the defense shifts. It doesn't do any good to pass the ball to Roy if he has to wait for the baseline cutter anyway (have I ranted today about that play?) and there's a delay before the cutter moves.

    Some of these guys are best at free-flowing, so I don't think we want a Rick Carlisle "look over here every play and I'll tell you what to do". When we're slumping on the offense, though, we need 3 or even 4 plays with very limited options that are run in every possible practice and walkthrough so that the players on the floor can execute them in their sleep with precise timing. It really doesn't look like there's anything resembling such a thing for this team right now.
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Could it be that this Pacers team just isn't that talented offensively. When I judge a team's halfcourt offense I look for players who can score even when they are well defended.

    How many players do we have that can score even when well defended? Roy cannot, Hill cannot, Lance cannot yet. Lance takes advantage of what the defense gives up especially in the open court, but in the halfcourt he can be defended and stopped.

    So that leaves us West and PG. Both players can score when well defended fairly well. West is the best passer we have in the starting five (yes better than lance) and that is why a lot of our offense runs through West. PG is capable of getting hot and can score seemingly at will, but I think teams are focusing their defense on him and giving him a lot of trouble.

    I think our offensive talent is average at best among the playff teams. And I don't think that has anything to do with coaching or offensive system. We are limited offensively especially for an elite team. Coaches IMO are maximizing our offensive talent.

    OK, let me list the teams starting with the top teams. I think all these teams have more offensive talent than we have.

    Heat
    Spurs
    Thunder
    Clippers
    Rockets
    Blazers

    I think clearly without question those teams are better offensively and if you switch coaching staffs with any of those teams it wouldn't change that.

    I think you could make the argument that Mavs, Warriors, Suns and even T-Wolves are better offensively than we are and once again it isn't because of coaching. And I have not mentioned any other eastern conference teams.

    I just think we need to be realistic with what we have. We need to be the best defensive team or we have no chance to win anything.
    I would say Hill is more consistently able to score when well defended than Paul, although at his best Paul is much better than Hill. He just doesn't assert himself enough.

    If you have a system designed for scoring 1v1 or 2v2 yeah that is important, but you don't need a system based on a singular talent or a duo doing all the work. You have 5 players to take advantage of. If you have 6 players who are all more than capable of averaging 16+ppg there is no lack of offensive talent, and you should be able to design an effective and very efficient offense. If they had more ball movement and player movement we would have one of the best offenses in the league.

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    Would this team be better offensively with a more structured offense? Maybe. I mean some players would be. Roy would be. Lance would be both better and worse at the same time. I just don'tt think the problem with our offense is the system. I've seen this team run the offense well, but too often lately they don't pass the ball enough, don't move enough. Now is that the system's fault or the players. I think the players

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Could it be that this Pacers team just isn't that talented offensively. When I judge a team's halfcourt offense I look for players who can score even when they are well defended.

    How many players do we have that can score even when well defended? Roy cannot, Hill cannot, Lance cannot yet. Lance takes advantage of what the defense gives up especially in the open court, but in the halfcourt he can be defended and stopped.

    So that leaves us West and PG. Both players can score when well defended fairly well. West is the best passer we have in the starting five (yes better than lance) and that is why a lot of our offense runs through West. PG is capable of getting hot and can score seemingly at will, but I think teams are focusing their defense on him and giving him a lot of trouble.

    I think our offensive talent is average at best among the playff teams. And I don't think that has anything to do with coaching or offensive system. We are limited offensively especially for an elite team. Coaches IMO are maximizing our offensive talent.
    Interesting point and I definitely agree that West and George are our best 1-on-1 players. But OTOH, how many of those teams you listed have more than 2 such guys? Arguably, trying to juggle 3 scorers who all need the ball is as much of a problem as not having enough scorers.

    Is the problem the quality of our main scorers then? I remember that our offense looked amazing earlier in the season when Paul George was playing like a superstar on offense.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Would this team be better offensively with a more structured offense? Maybe. I mean some players would be. Roy would be. Lance would be both better and worse at the same time. I just don'tt think the problem with our offense is the system. I've seen this team run the offense well, but too often lately they don't pass the ball enough, don't move enough. Now is that the system's fault or the players. I think the players
    That is the coach's and system's fault. A lack of ball and player movement falls on the coach first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Interesting point and I definitely agree that West and George are our best 1-on-1 players. But OTOH, how many of those teams you listed have more than 2 such guys? Arguably, trying to juggle 3 scorers who all need the ball is as much of a problem as not having enough scorers.

    Is the problem the quality of our main scorers then? I remember that our offense looked amazing earlier in the season when Paul George was playing like a superstar on offense.

    addressing your comment about earlier in the season. Defenses are more ready for us than earlier in the season. Defenses are generally better now than earlier in the season and so many teams start the season slow the Pacers were ready to start the season and were able to take advantage of teams early on. Early on our effort and physicalness was able to carry us to a lot of wins. But now teams are ready for it and more prepared to handle it.

    Pacers were playing with late season intensity to start the season when most other teams were playing with November and December intensity. So we got a lot of wins banked. Good for us, but wins are tougher now. i expected it and that is one reason why I thought any discussion of 70 wins was absurd and not realistic.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    It seemed like earlier in the year, and maybe this is just perception, but guys were making the extra pass. I've seen far too much dribbling and iso-ball.

    I still think Frank's a good coach, and no one in their right mind should want to replace him right now.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MiaDragon View Post
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    The ship was under water at that point. It seems he has an issue seeing the warning signs indicating catastrophe is soon to follow unless he changes course. Its only when the game is all but lost does he make changes and even then its not a given.

    I'm not a huge Vogal fan, I haven't been from the jump. These are the SAME flaws he's had from day one. Zero offensive structure, horrible substitutions and horrid use of time outs. I had hoped the more time he had under his coaching belt he would make adjustments but its just not happening. Unfortunately thats what winning will do, people get passes under "Hey but they're winning".
    Yea, winning sure does suck, and is also an indicator of not being very good. He clearly needs to be removed, his .700 career winning percentage and reaching the playoffs every year of his career, and ability to manage egos and develop players are terrible.

    On second thought, scratch that. This is a ridiculous post.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Yea, winning sure does suck, and is also an indicator of not being very good. He clearly needs to be removed, his .700 career winning percentage and reaching the playoffs every year of his career, and ability to manage egos and develop players are terrible.

    On second thought, scratch that. This is a ridiculous post.
    So you're saying Frank is perfect and he's the best coach it is possible for him to be?

    Somehow this seems to be the pattern far too often. Someone wants to discuss a weakness in a player/coach/FO and it gets jumped on like they've claimed the person is the worst ever - or, conversely, someone wants to talk about a strength and it gets jumped on like they've declared the person God's gift to whatever they are doing.

    There's a middle ground and everyone has room for improvement. If you don't agree that the flaws exist (or even just that they've been consistent flaws since Frank started), rebut them. Don't just act like he's been thrown under a bus.
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So you're saying Frank is perfect and he's the best coach it is possible for him to be?
    Bill, you tell me. Is that what I said? Did I say he's perfect? Or perhaps, I'm saying he's pretty damn good, and no coach is perfect? Hold on to this guy; he's going to win a ring some day. This is the same thing I said about Carlisle, when everyone was *****ing about him and we pushed him on to Dallas, who enjoyed their championship.

    The real "pattern", to me, is that any time there's a lull with this team, which *every* team goes through, people immediately start questioning Frank.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 03-07-2014 at 11:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    This is a ridiculous post.
    KM, I suspect Bill is referring to this part of your post.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Bill, you tell me. Is that what I said? Did I say he's perfect? Or perhaps, I'm saying he's pretty damn good, and no coach is perfect? Hold on to this guy; he's going to win a ring some day. This is the same thing I said about Carlisle, when everyone was *****ing about him and we pushed him on to Dallas, who enjoyed their championship.
    Well, no, you responded to a post by someone who listed his flaws (vehemently, but not everyone is going to love the coach) with the implication that it was a call for Vogel to be fired. Which was neither the point of the post nor the thread.

    On topic, if he's pretty damn good and he's going to win a ring someday, what is seeming to stop that from happening right now? Do you think it's all on the players and he just needs to keep doing what he's doing? Does he need better players? Does he need to make any changes himself to get to that point?

    I mean, there are lots of coaches in NBA history who have been great with the players and have great season records but never manage to win a ring. Do you think Vogel's flaws (whatever you think they might be) put him in that category? Why or why not?
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

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