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Thread: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

  1. #26

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think that with the starting 5 being what it is, we wil never have a great bench. Pick the 5 best bench players, one at each position, and put them on the Pacers and it still wouldn't be anything but an average bench. Especially statistically. Our starters are so good and productive our bench will always pale by comparison. So while I would give Frank an A for building a bench, I think he's gone pretty good. I'd give him a B.


    Frank didn't build the bench. The front office made moves. Now, Vogel has to take those pieces and use them accordingly. If he's gonna use the same pieces even when they aren't clicking on that particular night, he's a fool.

  2. #27
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    Frank didn't build the bench. The front office made moves. Now, Vogel has to take those pieces and use them accordingly. If he's gonna use the same pieces even when they aren't clicking on that particular night, he's a fool.
    So you think every game Frank should change who he uses off the bench? Even to a small degree? How would you like to go to work and not know where you are going to be sitting or which department you are going to be in or what you are going to be doing?

    No I am not equating NBA to real life, but using hyperpole to show that perhaps you get the most out of employees when they know exactly what is expected and what they are going to be doing and when.

    let me also ask you. when exactly do you know that the players off the bench are not going to be clicking? And how do you know just because they didn't click in the first half that they aren't going to click in the second half. Sure it is easy after the game to say wow Scola played horribly and yet he played 25 minutes. Wow that was a mistake. But when do you pull the plug on a guy for that game and for future games.

    We've had coaches here in the past who seemingly drew up a new substitution pattern every game and I thought it was a disaster. (Isiah and JOB)
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-06-2014 at 04:31 PM.

  3. #28

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    So you think every game they should change who Frank uses off the bench? Even to a small degree? How would you like to go to work and not know where you are going to be sitting or which department you are going to be in or what you are going to be doing?

    No I am not equating NBA to real life, but using hyperpole to show that perhaps you get the most out of employees when they know exactly what is expected and what they are going to be doing and when.

    let me also ask you. when exactly do you know that the players off the bench are not going to be clicking? And how do you know just because they didn't click in the first half that they aren't going to click in the second half. Sure it is easy after the game tosay wow Scola played horribly and yet he played 25 minutes. Wow that was a mistake. But when do you pull the plug on a guy for that game and for future games



    Absolutely not! Not every game! But lets be honest, we've had half a season to evaluate Scola. When he's on, he's great. But defensively, because he's older, slow-footed....he's too much of a liability defensively. Plus, his slump that's been happening for awhile now. Although he seems to be breaking out of it a bit now. And his elbow injury which might be slowing him down somewhat. And, remember.........he didn't have an off-season in 2013. He learned he was traded as he arrived back from playing ball in Europe. What we're seeing as half a season with everyone else....is like a full season to him now.

    Copeland offers higher point production at a faster rate, clip, and defensively....because he's younger, more spry, and more energetic....he's better than Scola. Not by a ton, but in the areas we need him to be. He defend AJ well last night during his stint in the game. So if you see you need to switch to a new flavor, after HALF A SEASON of one flavor, then do so! That's why the front office gave you those guys. With Scola's minutes, Copeland could've given us 19 points. And some 3's to shift momentum.

    Now to maximize that advantage, you cut Lance's minutes by 12 from 42 to 30. And give those to Rasual. Now, you just added two shooters off your bench. In a 10 man rotation with Bynum, CJ, and Evan. This rotation with a month together will pay dividends in the playoffs. Like it or not, in this game yesterday, our BENCH pulled us almost even. That was clicking last night. Vogel shut it down, and cost us the game. When in the 2nd half, he should've went with a blended lineup. Give Charlotte a different look. Make them sweat a bit, keep them guessing. The halftime lead was 9. With how Copeland went crazy when he got in there and hit 3 three's in under 4 minutes. Indiana could've went on a huge run. But Vogel chose the starting five. The same starting five that dug us that hole. It was a rare night where four of our starting five were just not into the game. And as a coach, your bench depth allows you to adjust to that scenario, before you're down by too many points.

  4. #29
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    OK so we just give up on Scola? Because anyone else would be better right?

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Like I said not too long ago, we are a victim of our own success. Pure and simple. The phenomenal playoff run last year and obscenely dominant start this year has caused people to expect near perfection. A two game losing streak is now treated like a slump. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things that I think the players and coach need to improve on. I've been saying for a little while that he is a bit too rigid with his rotations and should have given Copeland a shot much earlier. But there's no doubt in my mind that this team will be ready to rumble once the playoffs start. I have complete confidence in them and would be stunned beyond belief if we were taken out before the ECF's.

    Sometimes, I just think we are a little bored. Since Game 7 last year, our entire existence has revolved around the inevitable rematch with Miami. That's all the players want right now. That being said, they definitely need to stay focused on the task at hand. It would be a damn shame to lose that one seed after being in the driver's seat for so long.

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  7. #31
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK so we just give up on Scola? Because anyone else would be better right?
    I'm on board with giving Scola a lot of rest going into the playoffs and giving Copeland most of those minutes. I would do this with the intention to play Scola in the playoffs over Copeland. A vet like Scola could handle that and it would be nice to have beginning-of-the-year-Scola back. He just looks banged up to me. His defense has been beyond bad lately.

  8. #32
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Scola's actually been our best bench player the past 5 games. And he was the only player to have a positive +/- last night.
    “The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
    ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

  9. #33

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK so we just give up on Scola? Because anyone else would be better right?
    No. Don't give up. Look, Copeland's 3 point shooting ability is a weapon pure and simple. Having him, and Butler on the floor for the bench? Two bombers? Bynum in the middle, and Turner who can get to the paint whenever he wants. Plus CJ? That's a better bench. Basketball is all about momentum. The three pointer is a killer for teams. If enough of them go in, you can see the expression on a teams face change very quickly. This is what Cope and Butler can do. That's why he's a better weapon than Scola right now. I mean the guy gave us 9 points in 3 minutes! Scola gave us 8 in 14 minutes! Turner and Copeland work well off of each other too. As long as ET continues to get into the paint? That 3 ball will always be there for Cope or Rasual. I'm not saying we should turn into a late-season version of the Phoenix Suns, but I enjoy seeing this team have so many different facets.

    Defense
    Post scoring
    off the dribble
    midrange
    and bombs away.



    When you're down as much as we were last night? And your bench brings you back to within 2? You have to ride that train till the wheels fall off. And add to it. More weapons. Don't flip the entire starting line up. Just sit the cold guys. West and Lance. For Cope and Evan. Then hope PG catches fire, but you know Cope will be on fire. And as long as Evan keeps getting into the paint all day? Hill, PG, and Cope can just rain 3's down for a big comeback. On the other end, Hibbert can guard Big Al best he can. But mostly deture any guards from attacking the paint. Which is all we need.


    Eventually, it becomes a trade off. They score 2 points maybe 1 out of 3 possessions. We score 6 points on 2 out of our 3 possessions. Situational coaching is what the game is all about sometime.

  10. #34
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    The players are not the problem offensively primarily, it is the way and who is used. If DJ Augustin can flourish with Chicago then it has to be coaching.
    Bring on ET and Copeland and some new offensive sets and movement.
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  12. #35

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    The players are not the problem offensively primarily, it is the way and who is used. If DJ Augustin can flourish with Chicago then it has to be coaching.
    Bring on ET and Copeland and some new offensive sets and movement.
    Yes, unleash the offense! Although I disagree with Augustin. He's not very good. I think he works in Chicago because they probably run things through him the same way they did Rose.

  13. #36
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Does Vogel have a tendency to go off of "egg-timer" minutes while pulling Players that are "hot" when they are on the floor?

    Someone mentioned it in yesterday's Game thread....but did Vogel pull Turner out of the game prematurely in the 2nd half when he was doing very well?
    The ship was under water at that point. It seems he has an issue seeing the warning signs indicating catastrophe is soon to follow unless he changes course. Its only when the game is all but lost does he make changes and even then its not a given.

    I'm not a huge Vogal fan, I haven't been from the jump. These are the SAME flaws he's had from day one. Zero offensive structure, horrible substitutions and horrid use of time outs. I had hoped the more time he had under his coaching belt he would make adjustments but its just not happening. Unfortunately thats what winning will do, people get passes under "Hey but they're winning".

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    If Vogel could upgrade our offense without hurting our defense, don't you think he would have by now? Butler is not as good defensively as Paul, Lance, or Turner. Copeland is not as good defensively as even Scola is. With that said, I could see Butler joining the rotation and getting some first half minutes.
    “The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
    ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

  15. #38

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    If Vogel could upgrade our offense without hurting our defense, don't you think he would have by now? Butler is not as good defensively as Paul, Lance, or Turner. Copeland is not as good defensively as even Scola is. With that said, I could see Butler joining the rotation and getting some first half minutes.
    Copeland and Butler may not be elite defenders but they play in the NBA. Surely they can handle the opposing teams 2nd unit SF's or PF's. Or some of these geezers who're still playing at age 39.

  16. #39

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I think it is of far greater importance to this team that something is wrong with Roy Hibbert. The last 15 games have been rough. I suspect he injured his back or something.

    With Hibbert playing as he is capable of playing, there is no flaw in Vogel's coaching that is great enough to keep this team from the Finals. But with Hibbert playing as he has been, I think it would take a miracle for this team to make the Finals.


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  17. #40
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    It may sound crazy given our current play, but honestly I want us to face the Heat as soon as possible that game coming up cannot get here soon enough. Nothing gets us to focus like playing the Heat and given that we face them at home and away in a relative short amount of time I hope it keeps us focused for the rest of the season and into the playoffs.

  18. #41

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    The players are not the problem offensively primarily, it is the way and who is used. If DJ Augustin can flourish with Chicago then it has to be coaching.
    Bring on ET and Copeland and some new offensive sets and movement.
    DJ Augustin's success is overlooked by the teams Bulls have played against. Against sub .500 teams he does fine, but against any playoff contender he shoots 40%. Look at the games against Miami and Golden State. If George Hill played against Brandon Jennings and Shelvin Mack, he would produce great offensive numbers too.

  19. #42
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I think we have taken that brashness and turned it into a sort of arrogance. That arrogance is slowly starting to cause us to become the same type of whiney, entitled, primadonna team what we were designed to defeat in the first place.
    hmmm...

    Quite obviously, Herb Simon owns this team not as a means to compete for sports glory, but instead as his own highly sophisticated and elaborate real life rendition of his favorite cautionary novel "Animal Farm."

    JOB was Farmer Jones.
    Bird is Nopolean.
    David Morway was Snowball.
    Vogel is Squealer.
    Granger was Boxer.
    Evan Turner is the metaphorical whisky Granger was sold for.
    And we the fans are the other animals on the farm.

    Judging by the fact that we have become privy to the team starting to resemble the prima donnas we had despised all along, I would say we are nearing the end of Herbie's production.

    Well played, Mr. Simon. Well played.

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  21. #43

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banta View Post
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    I think it is of far greater importance to this team that something is wrong with Roy Hibbert. The last 15 games have been rough. I suspect he injured his back or something.

    With Hibbert playing as he is capable of playing, there is no flaw in Vogel's coaching that is great enough to keep this team from the Finals. But with Hibbert playing as he has been, I think it would take a miracle for this team to make the Finals.
    No he's fine. His confidence is lacking is all. But Hibbert has always been slow in the regular season and big at playoff time. He opened the season blocking everything. The regular season is a grind, and players go through ups and downs.

  22. #44
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    As I see it this team has three problems.

    Butler needs to play some. Not advocating for a lot of minutes, we just need someone who can shoot consistently from range in the second quarter.

    Stephenson and Paul need to have shorter leashes, especially Stephenson. When Stephenson plays for himself he is bad for the team, and for the most part Stephenson plays for himself not the team.

    Vogel needs to work on his offense in the offseason. He needs to find an offensive minded assistant to bring in to install a new offensive system, and Vogel needs to study that system. He needs to go away from the typical starball offense that he has created, and move towards a inside out game with motion and ball movement. If I never saw an iso play from the Pacers again, on a non-end of quarter play, I would be ecstatic. You play defense as a team, you should also play offense as a team.

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  24. #45

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I love so much of what Frank does, it's hard for me to complain too much. He has flaws but I think they'll improve with time.

    People forget but Erik Spoelestra was pretty bad that first year with the big three, and was a part of why they lost in the finals. Scottie Brooks does some good stuff but if he was the Pacers coach I would go nuts. Durant and Westbrook are such spectacular talents that they make up for a lot of what he does wrong.

    What I mean to say is, Frank's not perfect but there's only maybe two coaches in the league I think I'd rather have.

  25. #46
    Member BenR1990's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    The players are not the problem offensively primarily, it is the way and who is used. If DJ Augustin can flourish with Chicago then it has to be coaching.
    Bring on ET and Copeland and some new offensive sets and movement.
    I think Augustin is doing well in Chicago because their offense centers around the point guard dominating the ball, which is the complete opposite of how we use our PGs.

  26. #47

    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I don't get the "This guy was bad in Indy and good on another team do Frank is a bad coach" argument.

    Every player doesn't fit in every system. I like Seth Rogen a lot and think he's a super talented, funny actor. But Seth Rogen couldn't cut it in "12 Years a Slave." That doesn't mean Rogen sucks, or Steve McQueen sucks as a director. Sometimes the pieces just don't fit.

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  28. #48
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I think by now we know what the 2ne unit brings defensively, and outside of Mahinmi erasing a couple shots per game its not much, and they certainly not scoring with any real consistency. I don't think they are going to get any worse defensively if you put Butler and Copeland in there. But they will gain alot on offense with dead eye shooters. Evan Turner will get easier looks because teams can't just load up in the paint.

    Also if Vogel made sure Hill got some minutes with that unit, that would allow him to be Aggressive Hill and get him going too. They need to reel Lance in, his pace is too fast for the rest of the team. Causing fatigue amongst the other starters trying to keep up with him.

    I don't think Vogel will do it though, he will jsut continue to talk about championship level passing.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

  29. #49
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I've seen it in the work place. Frank is one of those managers who strokes the ego very well and created a healthy locker room. That worked very well but it has run its course and the team has some kind of issue. I just don't know what it is. It's not just a problem with coaching the team though. My best guess is that it is the Bynum acquisition and everything leading up to it. But no, I really don't know.

  30. #50
    THE WITCH IS DEAD!!! Coopdog23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I've seen it in the work place. Frank is one of those managers who strokes the ego very well and created a healthy locker room. That worked very well but it has run its course and the team has some kind of issue. I just don't know what it is. It's not just a problem with coaching the team though. My best guess is that it is the Bynum acquisition and everything leading up to it. But no, I really don't know.
    It's a few bad games. Let's see in April
    "We want Miami"

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