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Thread: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    We knew that sooner or later Frank would show some flaws in his coaching. I think that, because his biggest strength is believing in guys when they don't believe in themselves, while the Pacers were underdogs it was the overwhelming positivity that carried the day.

    Now, however, we're seeing some things that could be a problem. Off the top of my head, I can think of:

    - Limited offensive sets
    - Inflexible rotations (though this probably should be "not as flexible as they could be")
    - Inability to get the attention of guys who now think they are hot stuff and don't need him any more.

    None of these are "OMG DUMP HIM!" faults, nor are they all completely his doing (I mean, really, tuning out the guy who got you where you are? How dumb is that?). However, they seem to be visible not just to fans but to opposing coaches and have become something they can plan for.

    Thoughts?
    BillS

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    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Pretty easy fix in the offseason, bring in an assistant coach who can really put together an offense.
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    A big part of our turnaround was the "brashness" that Vogel brought to our team. He made a group of young players feel like they belong, and raised the collective confidence of the entire team. I think we have taken that brashness and turned it into a sort of arrogance. That arrogance is slowly starting to cause us to become the same type of whiney, entitled, primadonna team what we were designed to defeat in the first place.

    We've long gotten away from that hard nosed, "smashmouth" team that initially caused us to become so successful under Vogel. We used to play so hard and aggressive (especially defensively) that we were able to cover up the flaws in Vogel's coaching. In fact, our aggressive and physical style of play allowed us to play well above our talent level a lot of the time.

    It's kind of ironic that we now have twice the talent than we did before, yet we are somewhat losing our identity. This has caused some of those minor coaching flaws to become more noticeable (especially offensively). Now the same offense that we figured was limited due to a lack of talent within the team, is proving to be limited no matter who's running it. Or the substitution patterns that we figured were so rigid due to a lack of talent, is proving to be rigid when there is a collection of talent sitting on the bench.

    Let's not get it wrong here, obviously he's doing SOMETHING right. We have one of the best records in the league. So we may be nitpicking a bit at this point.

    ALL coaches have flaws; and I am very much so a Frank Vogel fan. I do not think that he is losing this team, but I think he needs to step up his game and change his thinking a bit if we want to reach our final goal of a championship.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 03-06-2014 at 01:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    HIS STUBBORNESS! He is so married/wedded to that piece of paper. Popovich in San Antonio will sit ANYONE if they're not playing well or look not focused or exhausted. But Vogel just won't make any changes to who he brings off the bench. And won't decrease Lance's minutes even though Lance looks a bit worn out. He reminds me of people who you're road tripping with, who won't admit they're lost even if they end up upside down in a lake.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I think Larry, if he is not already, might want to inject some disciplinary intensity and fire into the equation, especially for the young superstars. Provide backup for Frank and his system for a while. Larry should be commended for not meddling with what his coaching staff is selling to the players, but if the 3 year tune-out rule is starting to actually rear its head (I don't really think so), perhaps some Larry Legend fire would help to re-focus them out of their current funk.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    He's been around the game a long time and he's got Larry to talk to/listen to. He's still learning the game from a HC perspective. Speedbumps, I suppose, are expected with the growth of pretty much any career, so this isn't much different - just under a HUGE microscope.

    He'll be fine.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    The only real flaw I see in what Frank is doing is his over reliance on his starters. He is trying too hard to win this game he's playing now and not caring enough about winning the games next month. That leads him to playing his starters too many minutes early in the season and having them run out of gas as the season wears on. Paul and Lance are averaging 36 mpg. It looks like it is starting to wear on them. The bench needs to get a few more minutes and the starters a few less.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    All of these are very fixable problems. Number one will have to wait for the offseason, but once the offseason is done it can be fixed. The other two could be fixed today if Frank wanted to.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Give Copeland minutes!

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I am going to say that its time to insert Bynum into the mix and give him the low post with the second unit. OVerall though I think we have gone from a inside out game to a perimeter game that is easier to defend overall and doesn't punish teams nearly as much as it should given the Pacers size.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    He has flaws, but they aren't showing "now". As in they are now just starting to appear. They have always been there.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Everyone has flaws, including Vogel. That said I am not sure that George being injured and Hibbert being ineffective is indicative of any coaching flaw.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    If you have a starting lineup where everyone is capable of putting up at least 15-20 ppg every night, I don't think you should struggle. However, we've lost our identity a bit on both ends. Guys are trying to hard to make the flashy/hero play instead of just making the safe play and working the ball inside and out to find the best shot. Defensively, for a team that was built on defense, I've seen far too many easy layups or uncontested 3 point shots as of late.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    He has flaws, but they aren't showing "now". As in they are now just starting to appear. They have always been there.
    What flaws do u think that he has always had?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    He has flaws, but they aren't showing "now". As in they are now just starting to appear. They have always been there.
    It's not that they've suddenly happened. It's that they've suddenly become more visible - or perhaps started to have more impact is a better phrase?
    BillS

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Does Vogel have a tendency to go off of "egg-timer" minutes while pulling Players that are "hot" when they are on the floor?

    Someone mentioned it in yesterday's Game thread....but did Vogel pull Turner out of the game prematurely in the 2nd half when he was doing very well?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    What scares me shitless is most arm chair coaches biggest criticisms of Frank are the same criticisms most of us dummys had for Rick Carlisle, and well, we were wrong on that one.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    They aren't executing. You can see it. They aren't playing as hard, they aren't pressing near as hard on defense, they aren't giving near as much energy as they were earlier.

    I think this is mostly just mid-season lull. I know once the post-season is in sight, things will pick up. It's a grind, that's why they call it that. We're in the hardest part of the grind, when it's hard to keep focused. Teams do it differently.... Miami coasted at the beginning, and they pick things up around now. Indy hit it hard and seems to be coasting now. I still have faith they'll pick it back up.

    If they truly mean to earn HCA, though, they really need to watch themselves. I mean, they already made the playoffs, and they will be a massive force... but if they don't push the pedal a little bit, Miami *is* going to steal HCA. Which, whatever, I'm not near as sold on that as it's made out to be, but if you set a goal, you better damn well do it while exerting energy the entire time and not slack off.

    I don't have many problems with this team. But they aren't as conditioned as you'd expect. Being "gassed" and worn down and fatigued is not the place for this. I don't remember the Reggie Miller teams having "fatigue" issues. They balled, night in and night out. This team looks visibly tired sometimes. Don't know if they need a better nutritionist... or better cardio practices. Don't know. There's ways to solve this though. And they often get away from what makes them dominant --- working together. On defense *and* offense. Lately there's just been no defense, no rebounding. On offense, poor sharing, a lot of isolation. Sure way to rack up some losses. They know the recipe for winning, they just need to get back to it and stick with it.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 03-06-2014 at 03:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Carlisle is the best coach in the NBA at using a player to maximize that players strengths. He puts the player in the best position to succeed. He also is probably the best coach at building a bench. But the way he builds a bench is the exact thing that so many of you criticize Frank for - the egg timer substitutions.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I really don't care about the egg timer subs, that's been the most overblown topic on here lately. Who cares. Hell, it seemed like Bird used an almost 1-shot whole team substitution back in the day. All starters come out, bench comes in. It felt more like 2 cohesive units.
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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    A big part of our turnaround was the "brashness" that Vogel brought to our team. He made a group of young players feel like they belong, and raised the collective confidence of the entire team. I think we have taken that brashness and turned it into a sort of arrogance. That arrogance is slowly starting to cause us to become the same type of whiney, entitled, primadonna team what we were designed to defeat in the first place.
    Ouch.

    This statement hurts, because if I'm being honest it's looking more and more true as time goes on.

    Not saying I am souring on our guys in any way. I love this team with a passion, and I am totally behind them on and off the court.

    But you really hit the nail on the head to what I think a lot of us have been either consciously or subconsciously feeling for a while.

    Hurts to acknowledge it so bluntly though...

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    The key will be will be how they respond to this and how Vogel will respond to this, Miami and OKC have as many loses as the Pacers do, this does not mean the season has collapsed.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I really don't care about the egg timer subs, that's been the most overblown topic on here lately. Who cares. Hell, it seemed like Bird used an almost 1-shot whole team substitution back in the day. All starters come out, bench comes in. It felt more like 2 cohesive units.
    Overall, I agree with this....but I do see merit in keeping in Players that are doing very well on the floor. If a Player is torching another Team....whether it be Sloan or PG24....I want that Player on the floor until he cools down.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    I think that with the starting 5 being what it is, we wil never have a great bench. Pick the 5 best bench players, one at each position, and put them on the Pacers and it still wouldn't be anything but an average bench. Especially statistically. Our starters are so good and productive our bench will always pale by comparison. So while I would not give Frank an A for building a bench, I think he's gone pretty good. I'd give him a B.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-06-2014 at 05:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Vogel's Flaws Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Overall, I agree with this....but I do see merit in keeping in Players that are doing very well on the floor. If a Player is torching another Team....whether it be Sloan or PG24....I want that Player on the floor until he cools down.
    or if he gets tired? I have seen Frank often keep a guy in when they are hot - longer than their regular rotation. I've seen him call back a player ffrom the scorers table if he was set to come in for the hot player.

    But it isn't always that easy. Let say West plays the whole third quarter and takes over and scores 15 points. Does that mean he should start the fourth just because he is on fire? Same with PG. Both of them usually play the whole third quarters, but you have to rest them. Although I've seen PG start thefourt quarter also when he is hot, but he is 23, not West's age so you can get away with that sometimes with PG.

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