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Thread: Horrid 1H Rotations

  1. #1

    Default Horrid 1H Rotations

    Is Frank Vogel going to stick with these horrid 1H rotations throughout the year? our bench gets a lot of slack for their +/- and production, but is it really their fault? How much can you ask them to do when it is normally 4 bench players and lance playing the majority of the 2nd quarter? Same story every game. Starters hold tough for a quarter (or get a big lead), Vogel trots out 4 backups and gives lance the ultimate green light since no starters are playing with him. PG and West normally sit till about 4 minutes, maybe less if there are no dead balls. no reason PG should sit 8-9 minutes of any quarter unless foul trouble or blowout. i think this is our biggest issue going forward right now. Believe it was the Laker game, the cameras flashed to the bench and PG/Hibbert/West all looked bored becayse they had been sitting for so long. We cant keep gambling and hope to dominate the 2nd halves of games. Vogels 2nd half rotations are much better than his 1st half, so no surprise were the best 2nd half team in the league BY FAR. Hope he gets a wake up call and changes some things up while we can afford to before the playoffs.

    I dont offer a complaint w/o a suggestions so: PG should come out with about 2 minutes left in the 1st, and then bring him back in earlier in the 2nd. closer to the 6 minute mark instead of the 4 minute mark. DWest needs to overlap with the 2nd unit as well as he can carry the scoring load, while still allowing lance to be the primary ball handler.

    Also love the Turner/Lance/PG back court, although not sure how much that will happen with GHill coming back.

    The problem isnt our bench, its the fact that our bench has to play 8 straight minutes with one starter. our +/- normally starts to drop at about the 6 minute mark of the 2nd, which is when the starters need to get back in. I dont want to break it up too much because our starting 5 is dominant, but this should help us play for 48 minutes instead of 30 minutes.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    What I don't fancy that much is with PG staying out till the 3 minute mark sometimes in the second period. Really? Didn't know our superstar is 35 years old and we treat him accordingly. I don't see Thunder or Miami treating Durant or Lebron like that respectively.

    Regardless if Paul George isn't having a good shooting night, you basically negate any possible effect he can have for a whole period.

    Finally, it's not like this 9-minute rest he gets, means he will play the whole second half. He just did it though against Utah but that has not been the case all season long cause shocker, he does need a rest in the second half.
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  4. #3

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Here are Vogel's normal first half rotations (post All-Star Break. Before the break, West and Hibbert were flipped):

    3 to 6 minute mark, first quarter: Lance and Hibbert come out, Turner and Mahinmi come in
    2 minute mark, first quarter: Hill comes out, Watson comes in
    beginning of second quarter: George and West come out, Lance and Scola come in
    6 to 8 minute mark of second quarter: Hibbert comes in, Mahinmi comes out
    5 to 7 minute mark of second quarter: Hill comes in Watson comes out.
    3 to 5 minute mark of second quarter: George and West come in, Turner and Scola go out.

    Four bench players play together for about 4-6 minutes in the first half before Hibbert comes back in the game. PG plays the entire first quarter to give Lance his only rest of the half. If PG came out earlier, he'd probably have to be replaced by a 10th man, which just means that the 4 bench player lineup would start at the 2 minute mark of the 1st quarter (4 bench+West for two minutes and then 4 bench+Lance after that).

    One thing that could be shifted is to try to give PG 6 minute off in the first half and 6 off in the second half instead of the current 8/4 split. But I'm guessing Vogel is reluctant to leave PG out until the 6 minute mark of the 4th quarter. Giving him 8 minutes off in the first half allows him to play PG as much as he needs to in the 2nd half without worrying about stretching him too far in a regular season game.

  5. #4

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    Here are Vogel's normal first half rotations (post All-Star Break. Before the break, West and Hibbert were flipped):

    3 to 6 minute mark, first quarter: Lance and Hibbert come out, Turner and Mahinmi come in
    2 minute mark, first quarter: Hill comes out, Watson comes in
    beginning of second quarter: George and West come out, Lance and Scola come in
    6 to 8 minute mark of second quarter: Hibbert comes in, Mahinmi comes out
    5 to 7 minute mark of second quarter: Hill comes in Watson comes out.
    3 to 5 minute mark of second quarter: George and West come in, Turner and Scola go out.

    Four bench players play together for about 4-6 minutes in the first half before Hibbert comes back in the game. PG plays the entire first quarter to give Lance his only rest of the half. If PG came out earlier, he'd probably have to be replaced by a 10th man, which just means that the 4 bench player lineup would start at the 2 minute mark of the 1st quarter (4 bench+West for two minutes and then 4 bench+Lance after that).

    One thing that could be shifted is to try to give PG 6 minute off in the first half and 6 off in the second half instead of the current 8/4 split. But I'm guessing Vogel is reluctant to leave PG out until the 6 minute mark of the 4th quarter. Giving him 8 minutes off in the first half allows him to play PG as much as he needs to in the 2nd half without worrying about stretching him too far in a regular season game.
    lol so the only way to get PG rest is to put in our 10th man? i know you dont actually believe that. We can play CJ Watson off the ball (just like he does when lance runs point) and George Hill can also play off the ball at the 2 as well. Its not even about getting PG rest, its about sitting him and West as well, for damn near an entire quarter when our bench struggles and blows a lead (see: Milwaukee. Paul George and David West play a 2:49 2nd qtr, the only qtr we got dominated.)

    They play 4 bench players alot longer than 4 minutes in most games and oftentimes its vs other teams starters. i watch alot of hoops and not too many teams run 4 bench player lineups with your 3 best scorers being off the court all at the same time (Hill, PG and West). and the one starter is one of the worst decision maker on the team (love lance, dont get me wrong but its true).

    I understand that his 1st half rest helps him in the 2nd, thats why part of the suggestion was to play West with the 2nd unit if youre gonna leave PG out that long. We cant keep blowing 1st qtr leads and playing with halftime deficits if we expect to win a title. its not going to work. teams like OKC and MIA arent going to relinquish 2nd half comebacks every game.

  6. #5

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    CJ Watson plays 8-9 minutes next to Lance basically playing the 2, no reason he cant play next to George Hill for a few minutes so we can get our star back in the game earlier before our bench blows a lead.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by PG-24 View Post
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    CJ Watson plays 8-9 minutes next to Lance basically playing the 2, no reason he cant play next to George Hill for a few minutes so we can get our star back in the game earlier before our bench blows a lead.
    Noooooooo.

    Two PG lineups are the worst thing ever.

    We are lucky to have a huge size advantage against most teams, why would we take one of our own strengths away?

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  9. #7

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by PG-24 View Post
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    CJ Watson plays 8-9 minutes next to Lance basically playing the 2, no reason he cant play next to George Hill for a few minutes so we can get our star back in the game earlier before our bench blows a lead.
    Is Watson or Hill getting more minutes in this scenario? Not necessarily opposed to it, just trying to see what you're thinking.

    BTW, our first half struggles are blamed on the bench unit, but that hasn't necessarily been the case. The bench unit when Granger was around was actually a net positive overall. Our quarter stats show that our 2nd quarter has still been the worst (mostly due to the horrid start to the season), but our second worst has easily been the first quarter:

    First Quarter: Pacers 23.6, Opponents 22.7
    Second Quarter: Pacers 23.7, Opponents 23.7
    Third Quarter: Pacers 26.1, Opponents 21.4
    Fourth Quarter: Pacers 25.1, Opponents 23.1

    There is still a huge divide between the first and third quarters, and the Pacers rotations are basically identical during those quarters.

  10. #8

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    for 2 minutes of a quarter? it wont hurt. or we can keep running plays for scola to clank jumpers, or resorting to mahinmi 15 footers when lance gets out of control. bottom line is that never should PG sit for 8-9 minutes of a quarter barring foul trouble. especially not when were blowing 2nd qtr leads every game.

    also, re 2 PG lineups: Do lance and CJ not play 6-8 minutes together in that dreadful 2nd qtr? while CJ is playing off the ball? or we gonna pretend like lance is the PG? isnt that a 2 PG lineup?

  11. #9

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    Is Watson or Hill getting more minutes in this scenario? Not necessarily opposed to it, just trying to see what you're thinking.

    BTW, our first half struggles are blamed on the bench unit, but that hasn't necessarily been the case. The bench unit when Granger was around was actually a net positive overall. Our quarter stats show that our 2nd quarter has still been the worst (mostly due to the horrid start to the season), but our second worst has easily been the first quarter:

    First Quarter: Pacers 23.6, Opponents 22.7
    Second Quarter: Pacers 23.7, Opponents 23.7
    Third Quarter: Pacers 26.1, Opponents 21.4
    Fourth Quarter: Pacers 25.1, Opponents 23.1

    There is still a huge divide between the first and third quarters, and the Pacers rotations are basically identical during those quarters.
    Those 2nd qtr splits are misleading because our starters normally get back in the game and even the quarter out.

    thats the thing, the minutes would essentially stay the same, give or take a minute or two, it would just be minor tweaks with how the minutes are handed out, so maybe we can get used to going into half with the lead. We really put our starters in a terrible position and are lucky they as a group are so dominant.

  12. #10
    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    The Pacers are 46-13 with this rotation. It's not the colossal problem you're making it out to be.


    It's only the regular season. The rotation during the Playoffs will be different and the starters will play many more minutes just like they did last year.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  14. #11

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    im aware of our record and also aware that games are alot more difficult than they need to be. having to play our starters full minutes in games that should be blowouts but instead we botched the 2nd quarter. would be in a much better situation if our coach didnt stare at our 2nd unit play awful for 7 minutes and not make any changes.

    didnt say it was a collossal issue, but its the biggest issue we have right now.

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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    The Pacers are 46-13 with this rotation. It's not the colossal problem you're making it out to be.


    It's only the regular season. The rotation during the Playoffs will be different and the starters will play many more minutes just like they did last year.
    With the minutes we're playing Lance and Paul now, I don't see how they can pick up much more in the playoffs. We basically played an 8 man rotation in our last game against a non-playoff team on March 2cd. I think Frank needs to have a little more faith in the talent we have on the bench. Turner has played a flat 20 minutes in 2 of the games he's been here while Lance has played over 40 minutes in both of those. It's almost a crime to make the trade and give him those kinds of minutes. There is no reason we shouldn't have a split 2/3 rotation with PG, Lance, and Turner all getting close to the same minutes but even if Vogel refuses to give Turner those extra minutes I'd still rather not wear Lance and Paul down to this degree, give some minutes to Copeland. I've been saying for a long time that I think we'd be a better team with Lance getting closer to 30 minutes and Paul giving up 2-3 minutes and I'd like to see very little of Lance with the second unit. I don't like Lance playing much with the second because of what the OP brought up, Lance makes himself the #1 option and doesn't play smart basketball when he's with the second unit. Personally. I'd like to see GH change rotations with Lance and get some playing time with the second unit. I keep reading post that our bench production isn't what it should be but we should consider that the person taking the most shots with the second unit isn't a bench player and those numbers go to the starters.

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  17. #13

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by PG-24 View Post
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    Those 2nd qtr splits are misleading because our starters normally get back in the game and even the quarter out.
    If that were true, than how did the Lance+4 bench players have a positive plus/minus for the entire time Granger was here? It wasn't very much positive (+10 over 171 minutes) but they weren't giving up leads left or right either.

    Since Turner has gotten here, here are the splits for when the second starter comes in the game, and for when the last starter comes into the game in the 2nd quarter:

    Lakers: +3 with four bench players. -2 from start of 2nd quarter to when PG came in. -4 overall.
    Milwaukee: -4 with four bench players. -7 from start of 2nd quarter to when PG came in. -15 overall.
    Boston: +2 with four bench players. +8 when PG came in (West never came in this game). +6 overall.
    Utah: -5 with four bench players. -10 when PG came in. -2 overall.

    That averages out to -1 per game from the bench players, -2.75 from the start of the quarter to PG coming in, and -3.75 overall. Not very good for the bench or the starters. That's only a four game sample size, but add in the +/- from Granger's time and the bench rotation is not nearly as bad as it seems to be.

  18. #14

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    If that were true, than how did the Lance+4 bench players have a positive plus/minus for the entire time Granger was here? It wasn't very much positive (+10 over 171 minutes) but they weren't giving up leads left or right either.

    Since Turner has gotten here, here are the splits for when the second starter comes in the game, and for when the last starter comes into the game in the 2nd quarter:

    Lakers: +3 with four bench players. -2 from start of 2nd quarter to when PG came in. -4 overall.
    Milwaukee: -4 with four bench players. -7 from start of 2nd quarter to when PG came in. -15 overall.
    Boston: +2 with four bench players. +8 when PG came in (West never came in this game). +6 overall.
    Utah: -5 with four bench players. -10 when PG came in. -2 overall.

    That averages out to -1 per game from the bench players, -2.75 from the start of the quarter to PG coming in, and -3.75 overall. Not very good for the bench or the starters. That's only a four game sample size, but add in the +/- from Granger's time and the bench rotation is not nearly as bad as it seems to be.
    so 3 games (out of 4) vs non playoff teams where we finished the 2nd quarter (-)? is that good?

  19. #15

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by PG-24 View Post
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    so 3 games (out of 4) vs non playoff teams where we finished the 2nd quarter (-)? is that good?
    No, it's not. I'm not saying the Pacers don't have 1st half woes. But the starters have just as much or more to do with that as the bench. The bench heavy units have done surprisingly ok. You had stated that the second quarter numbers look better than they should because the starters bail out the bench at the end of the second quarter, and the lineup numbers don't really bear that out.

    I don't think the problem lies in the rotation. It's mostly that the starters don't turn up the intensity level until the 2nd half because they don't have to right now. That's why the 1st quarter numbers are also so pedestrian. In fact, in the games Granger/Turner have played, the Pacers are +22 in the first quarter and +49 in the second quarter. I've spoiler tagged the game by game 1st/2nd quarter numbers in that timeframe.

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  21. #16

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by PG-24 View Post
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    Is Frank Vogel going to stick with these horrid 1H rotations throughout the year? our bench gets a lot of slack for their +/- and production, but is it really their fault? How much can you ask them to do when it is normally 4 bench players and lance playing the majority of the 2nd quarter? Same story every game. Starters hold tough for a quarter (or get a big lead), Vogel trots out 4 backups and gives lance the ultimate green light since no starters are playing with him. PG and West normally sit till about 4 minutes, maybe less if there are no dead balls. no reason PG should sit 8-9 minutes of any quarter unless foul trouble or blowout. i think this is our biggest issue going forward right now. Believe it was the Laker game, the cameras flashed to the bench and PG/Hibbert/West all looked bored becayse they had been sitting for so long. We cant keep gambling and hope to dominate the 2nd halves of games. Vogels 2nd half rotations are much better than his 1st half, so no surprise were the best 2nd half team in the league BY FAR. Hope he gets a wake up call and changes some things up while we can afford to before the playoffs.

    I dont offer a complaint w/o a suggestions so: PG should come out with about 2 minutes left in the 1st, and then bring him back in earlier in the 2nd. closer to the 6 minute mark instead of the 4 minute mark. DWest needs to overlap with the 2nd unit as well as he can carry the scoring load, while still allowing lance to be the primary ball handler.

    Also love the Turner/Lance/PG back court, although not sure how much that will happen with GHill coming back.

    The problem isnt our bench, its the fact that our bench has to play 8 straight minutes with one starter. our +/- normally starts to drop at about the 6 minute mark of the 2nd, which is when the starters need to get back in. I dont want to break it up too much because our starting 5 is dominant, but this should help us play for 48 minutes instead of 30 minutes.




    I agree. I understand not playing LaVoy Allen, since he just got here. But Frank needs to play the whole bench to give starters rest. Also Scola is still struggling a bit. And I think he needs a rest too to be fresh for playoff time. Swap Scola out for Copeland. Move Turner to back up SG, and play Rasual behind PG. That's a 10 man rotation. Also, our leads will get bigger because Ian defensively with blocks will start fast breaks that can lead to open 3's for Rasual or Cope. When Bynum starts playing, he will command double-teams that will allow the ball to swing around the perimeter, and give Rasual and Cope open looks from 3. Either way, some of these games are close because Frank is leaving two dead-eye shooters on the bench. For a backup PF who is in a slump, and MIGHT BE a bit tired. And for our starting SG to play 42 minutes a game. It's insane.

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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    The Pacers Bench only averages 15.6 minutes per game. So I don't think we can lump all the blame on them for the team's 2nd quarter issues.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  24. #18

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    The Pacers Bench only averages 15.6 minutes per game. So I don't think we can lump all the blame on them for the team's 2nd quarter issues.
    I blame Vogel for not having enough shooters on the floor. Our bench unit looks like this........




    Scola
    Turner
    Ian
    Lance
    CJ





    ^None of those guys are a threat to spot up from 3 and knock it down with HEAVY consistency. You add Cope and Rasual in there and that changes. The 3 ball is a weapon in the NBA, and if you don't have at least one specialist out there with your bench unit. It's gonna be hard to crush teams. Even sub 500 ones.

  25. #19
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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by PG-24 View Post
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    Is Frank Vogel going to stick with these horrid 1H rotations throughout the year? our bench gets a lot of slack for their +/- and production, but is it really their fault? How much can you ask them to do when it is normally 4 bench players and lance playing the majority of the 2nd quarter? Same story every game. Starters hold tough for a quarter (or get a big lead), Vogel trots out 4 backups and gives lance the ultimate green light since no starters are playing with him. PG and West normally sit till about 4 minutes, maybe less if there are no dead balls. no reason PG should sit 8-9 minutes of any quarter unless foul trouble or blowout. i think this is our biggest issue going forward right now. Believe it was the Laker game, the cameras flashed to the bench and PG/Hibbert/West all looked bored becayse they had been sitting for so long. We cant keep gambling and hope to dominate the 2nd halves of games. Vogels 2nd half rotations are much better than his 1st half, so no surprise were the best 2nd half team in the league BY FAR. Hope he gets a wake up call and changes some things up while we can afford to before the playoffs.

    I dont offer a complaint w/o a suggestions so: PG should come out with about 2 minutes left in the 1st, and then bring him back in earlier in the 2nd. closer to the 6 minute mark instead of the 4 minute mark. DWest needs to overlap with the 2nd unit as well as he can carry the scoring load, while still allowing lance to be the primary ball handler.

    Also love the Turner/Lance/PG back court, although not sure how much that will happen with GHill coming back.

    The problem isnt our bench, its the fact that our bench has to play 8 straight minutes with one starter. our +/- normally starts to drop at about the 6 minute mark of the 2nd, which is when the starters need to get back in. I dont want to break it up too much because our starting 5 is dominant, but this should help us play for 48 minutes instead of 30 minutes.

    are you basing this only on the Lakers game?

  26. #20
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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    Noooooooo.

    Two PG lineups are the worst thing ever.

    We are lucky to have a huge size advantage against most teams, why would we take one of our own strengths away?


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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    GEORGE HILL IS NOT A POINT GUARD

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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    If there was a glaring issue in the way Vogel hands out minutes, I'm sure that Larry or McMillan would point it out to Frank. Let the coaches coach.

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  30. #23
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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    I think the biggest mistake he makes is playing David West for almost the entire 3rd qtr and then not bringing him back in until 4-5 minutes left in the game. I'd want West in the game for the final 8 minutes.
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  31. #24
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    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Honestly, the 2nd quarter team would look dramatically different if Scola simply hit the multiple open elbows he'd hit earlier in the season:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits...781/luis-scola

    October 2 18.5 3.5-5.5 .636 0.0-0.0 .000 0.0-0.0 .000 0.5 1.0 1.5 0.5 0.5 0.0 2.0 2.0 7.0
    November 14 19.1 3.6-6.9 .515 0.0-0.1 .000 1.2-1.6 .739 0.9 3.9 4.8 0.9 0.3 0.5 2.2 1.6 8.4
    December 14 17.8 3.6-6.8 .537 0.1-0.1 .500 1.6-2.1 .767 0.9 4.4 5.3 0.8 0.2 0.4 1.6 1.6 9.0
    January 15 17.0 3.1-8.1 .380 0.0-0.1 .000 0.8-1.1 .750 1.6 4.6 6.2 0.9 0.1 0.1 1.9 1.1 6.9
    February 12 14.8 2.3-6.1 .370 0.0-0.0 .000 1.3-1.8 .682 0.9 3.9 4.8 1.3 0.1 0.5 1.7 1.3 5.8

    Look at the cliff he fell off in January.

  32. #25

    Default Re: Horrid 1H Rotations

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    are you basing this only on the Lakers game?
    No.

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