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Thread: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Why would you expect someone to steadily get better, and not have ups and downs. Since you want to throw out Dec, we have two months worth of information. Do you think 2 months is enough to properly evaluate where Danny will be next Oct?

    If the answer is no, then you just shot down your own point.
    If the answer is yes, then there's not much left to say other than, we'll see.
    I think it's more likely than not that he'll be better in October since he really can't be much worse than he was this year.

    Ups and downs are expected, but over a two month span I would hope to see more ups than downs so that the overall averages would gradually increase. 29 games isn't a super huge amount, but it's still a fairly solid sample. It's a little over a third of the season.

    And no I did not want to throw December out, because those 5 games were as important as any other 5. My point was that the way you had it stacked against January and February was a bit misleading since there were way more games played in those two months.

    I wasn't posting this morning with the intent of saying that DG was completely done or anything of the sort. I first responded to Pacerized's comments saying that the system in LA should help Danny. My point to him was that his game currently has some terrible flaws that no system can correct. The only way they can get corrected is if he himself improves and starts making shots. Will this happen over the end of the regular season and into the playoffs? Maybe, but I'm glad that it's a different team gambling on it.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    the need to impress on anyone that DG sucked or sucks is amazing, you don't like him, you have other heroes, fine with us, but please stop trying to prove we are all wrong for liking or having liked DG33 who played almost 9 years for us and won MIP and and All-Star selection, was the 1st player ever to raise his avg by 5pt per season over at least 3 seasons and was a gentleman even with all the **** he had to take here.
    We are not wrong in that, and we agree he had produced little the last 2 years and that it changed the picture completely, but it does not make the "pain" any less of seeing him go.
    Why can you not simply respect people for still carrying a torch for this guy and give them time to learn to like "your" favorites instead of making it a pissin-contest which in it's own right makes most of us argue against your favorites just to "protect" our own feelings. You are creating an atmosphere where we have a choice to either love our guy and thus hate yours or love yours as well and disavow "our guy" and that just aint right.

    Please let it rest and don't make liking or having enjoyed DG33 a crime, it wasn't and it isn't

    I wish him well, and much success, and go Pacers!
    I'm not trying to **** on anyone. I've had healthy and cordial discussions with both Since86 and Pacerized in this thread today. I like Granger and have said multiple times over the past couple of weeks that he was a much needed classy personality after all of the unlikable a-holes that we had in the mid-2000's. Also, there's no doubt that he used to be a very good player. I've said multiple times that he had horrible luck in that he came of age with the likes of O'Brien/murph/Dun/Ford/etc, then he got hurt at a relatively young age when the team all of the sudden got scary good. That sucks and I hate that it happened to him. I would consider him a top 10 or so all time NBA Pacer, which is a good class to be in.

    That being said, there is plenty of room here for some honest and differing opinions. Pacerized has implied multiple times that Lance, Vogel, and the system here let Danny down. That's fine, he's free to his opinion and maybe he's right. But I disagree and feel that Danny's issues are exponentially deeper than his teammates or system. Regardless, it was all healthy debate and conversation, IMO.

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  4. #103
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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I wasn't posting this morning with the intent of saying that DG was completely done or anything of the sort.
    Maybe not, but the constant challenging of someone who thinks Danny will eventually get things turned around starts painting the picture. This goes way beyond this conversation, and hits directly at the arguments that were made prior to the season even starting.

    There's lots of reasons of valid reasons as to why someone would think Danny would get benefit out of playing for the Clips.
    1) He's not being viewed as the savior of their bench, the way he was here.
    2) Time. Whether or not it's a "new" system, it's still a system that will give him more time to get his legs underneath him.
    3) Role. He's not asked to make plays. Whether or not it was Frank's system, or Danny took it upon himself, Danny was trying to be more than just a stand still shooter

    Those are three big things that are in Danny's favor right now.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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  6. #104
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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I think it's more likely than not that he'll be better in October since he really can't be much worse than he was this year.
    I'm really not understanding this line of thinking at all. No matter how poorly he was shooting, a player can play a lot worse than producing 8ppg as a 6th man for a championship contending team. Even if he can't get back to where he was previously, he showed the ability to contribute to a team that was vying for a championship.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I wasn't posting this morning with the intent of saying that DG was completely done or anything of the sort. I first responded to Pacerized's comments saying that the system in LA should help Danny. My point to him was that his game currently has some terrible flaws that no system can correct. The only way they can get corrected is if he himself improves and starts making shots. Will this happen over the end of the regular season and into the playoffs? Maybe, but I'm glad that it's a different team gambling on it.
    IDK if there's any direct correlation or not, but the same things could have been said about DJ Augustin and Gerald Green last year. They both shot abysmally for the Pacers coming off the bench last year. And now this year, they are both shooting and playing at a much higher level. I'm not saying that Danny will or wont have the same type of turnaround (because nobody knows) but it's definitely not something that's unprecedented when it comes to former players that came off the bench for the Pacers. Obviously Danny will need to become a bit more assertive offensively, and knock down his open 3's. But it's not something that should be seen as utterly impossible.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 03-03-2014 at 04:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    I went ahead and broke down Danny's shooting in 5 game spurts.

    12-20 through 12-31 = 11/38 28.9%
    1-1 through 1-8 = 21/46 45.7%
    1-10 through 1-20 = 13/40 32.5%
    1-22 through 1-30 = 11/31 35.6%
    2-1 through 2-9 = 13/41 31.7%
    2-10 through 2-19(4gms) = 11/27 40.7%

    Still looks like an upward trend, albeit a slow one. The interesting part about that last 4 game split, is that he shot 1-6 in that last game. Not to mention that his FG% increase when he's given more rest.
    Last edited by Since86; 03-03-2014 at 04:11 PM.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    I'm puzzled by people judging this like Danny is just coming off the injury. The fact is, it's been 10 months since he had surgery. 10 months is enough time to shake off the rust. Granted he had a setback with his calf but c'mon, 10 months. Rajon Rondo played 38 games last year at a high level, tore an acl, rehabbed, and is back to playing at a high level, and Danny still has yet to look healthy from an injury that kept him out pretty much all of last year.

    That tells me that people are either under estimating the problems with his knee or just suffering from blind optimism.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Danny plays better in LA than he did here at all. His role there will suit him perfectly. But I also wouldn't be surprised to see him continue to struggle either.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    the need to impress on anyone that DG sucked or sucks is amazing, you don't like him, you have other heroes, fine with us, but please stop trying to prove we are all wrong for liking or having liked DG33 who played almost 9 years for us and won MIP and and All-Star selection, was the 1st player ever to raise his avg by 5pt per season over at least 3 seasons and was a gentleman even with all the **** he had to take here.
    We are not wrong in that, and we agree he had produced little the last 2 years and that it changed the picture completely, but it does not make the "pain" any less of seeing him go.
    Why can you not simply respect people for still carrying a torch for this guy and give them time to learn to like "your" favorites instead of making it a pissin-contest which in it's own right makes most of us argue against your favorites just to "protect" our own feelings. You are creating an atmosphere where we have a choice to either love our guy and thus hate yours or love yours as well and disavow "our guy" and that just aint right.

    Please let it rest and don't make liking or having enjoyed DG33 a crime, it wasn't and it isn't

    I wish him well, and much success, and go Pacers!
    I don't think anybody here is really pissing on Danny. Sure there are some comments made, but I think people are just talking basketball and things get a little out of hand. Sometimes that leads to hurt feelings, I know I get upset when people rag on my favorite players too, but people shouldn't take this stuff personally.

    What matters in sports are the memories. And everyone remembers things differently. I don't think the naysayers change that in the end.

    We are all Pacers fans and we will all remember Danny for the good times he had here and being a bright spot in a dark time. The first time he's back in the field house I'll give him a standing ovation just like the rest of us will. No matter what he's a Pacer, he will think of himself as a Pacer and we will see him as a Pacer.

    Let a Bulls fan come in here and talk trash about DG and watch us all flame the hell out of him.
    "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I'm puzzled by people judging this like Danny is just coming off the injury. The fact is, it's been 10 months since he had surgery. 10 months is enough time to shake off the rust. Granted he had a setback with his calf but c'mon, 10 months. Rajon Rondo played 38 games last year at a high level, tore an acl, rehabbed, and is back to playing at a high level, and Danny still has yet to look healthy from an injury that kept him out pretty much all of last year.

    That tells me that people are either under estimating the problems with his knee or just suffering from blind optimism.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Danny plays better in LA than he did here at all. His role there will suit him perfectly. But I also wouldn't be surprised to see him continue to struggle either.
    Yes, he was 10 months removed from when he stopped playing last season. Keep in mind, however, that it had been another 9 months since he had last played basketball before that 5 game stint. So you're talking a year and a half since he played consistent NBA basketball. He hasn't had 10 months to shake off the rust, he had almost 3 months of basketball after a briefly interrupted 19 month period.

    He finished the 2012 playoffs at the end of May. (9 months) He played 5 games at the end of February in 2013. (1 month) . Danny's surgery was in April 2013. (9 months) Danny started playing in the end of December. (3 months) It's March 2014.

    The other thing is that his injury is chronic and has to be managed more diligently and for the rest of his career. Rondo's knee, for example, will get to the point where it's healed and his trainers are back to doing basic preventative stuff.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 03-04-2014 at 03:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Tonight is Clippers v Suns. It's ex-Pacer heaven!
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

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    Enjoy your time at PD!

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I'm puzzled by people judging this like Danny is just coming off the injury. The fact is, it's been 10 months since he had surgery. 10 months is enough time to shake off the rust. Granted he had a setback with his calf but c'mon, 10 months. Rajon Rondo played 38 games last year at a high level, tore an acl, rehabbed, and is back to playing at a high level, and Danny still has yet to look healthy from an injury that kept him out pretty much all of last year.
    If you honestly think this way about injuries, you're just lost. I really don't mean to be a dick, but I don't even know where to begin with this. Surgery is the beginning part of the healing process, not the end. This is basic stuff. I would just suggest you go out and read a bit about rehab, and what it's designed to do, and now out of the loop basektball wise you really are during the process. Your body goes through some pretty weird adjustments before, during, and after surgery and it takes a long time to get everything back on the same page.

    People usually give players coming off ACL injuries, a full year to recover their basketball skills after they get out of rehab because of the adjustments not only you have to make mentally, but phsyically. 10 months from surgery is about middle of the road, for most.
    Last edited by Since86; 03-04-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If you honestly think this way about injuries, you're just lost. I really don't mean to be a dick, but I don't even know where to begin with this. Surgery is the beginning part of the healing process, not the end. This is basic stuff. I would just suggest you go out and read a bit about rehab, and what it's designed to do, and now out of the loop basektball wise you really are during the process. Your body goes through some pretty weird adjustments before, during, and after surgery and it takes a long time to get everything back on the same page.

    People usually give players coming off ACL injuries, a full year to recover their basketball skills after they get out of rehab because of the adjustments not only you have to make mentally, but phsyically. 10 months from surgery is about middle of the road, for most.
    Yeah and in the beginning he was only supposed to miss 3 months.

    I think if you really believe a player that hasn't recovered from an injury in 18 months is gonna make a startling recovery and return to anything close to his former self, then I would challenge you to name me one. Again, remember Danny has lost almost 2 entire seasons now to one injury and he's on the back half of his career. That is not normal.

    Danny's knee is not the type of injury that heals back to normal, he's said so himself. It's a degenerative type of injury that just continues to get worse over time with age.
    Last edited by Taterhead; 03-04-2014 at 01:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I think if you really believe a player that hasn't recovered from an injury in 18 months is gonna make a startling recovery and return to anything close to his former self, then I would challenge you to name me one.
    Pretty much anyone you can think of who had an ACL injury. I could provide a narrower list, but why bother when you have that many examples?

    But let's get one thing cleared up, no one is saying he will "be anything close to his former self." He'll never be the same player. What is being said, is that the player he is right now, could (and probably) will get better just over time. How much better? I don't know, but players aren't 10 months removed from major knee sugery and back to their new "normal."

    It's an impossible standard to have for players. One, or even a couple, might be the exception, but it's just setting people up for failure.


    This stuff isn't something that I just picked up, or pulled out of my rear. Even though I don't work in this field, this kind of stuff is exactly what I went to school for, majored in Exercise Science with a minor in athletic training. I'm not an expert, but thinking "hey this guy is 10 months from major knee surgery, he should be fully healed!" just isn't anywhere near reality.
    Last edited by Since86; 03-04-2014 at 01:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    Yeah and in the beginning he was only supposed to miss 3 months.

    I think if you really believe a player that hasn't recovered from an injury in 18 months is gonna make a startling recovery and return to anything close to his former self, then I would challenge you to name me one. Again, remember Danny has lost almost 2 entire seasons now to one injury and he's on the back half of his career. That is not normal.

    Danny's knee is not the type of injury that heals back to normal, he's said so himself. It's a degenerative type of injury that just continues to get worse over time with age.
    He missed a season and 25 games, not close to two full seasons.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    I think it's realistic that Danny will improve and be a bit better as his conditioning improves, his knee strengthens, and he learns to adjust to maybe a step less of athletic ability and quickness. However, I don't think we'll ever see that 18-22 ppg guy again. My guess is more like a 12 ppg guy at most. At this juncture, with championship aspirations, Pacers couldn't afford to wait and see. DG was most likely a one year rental at this point (with Lance an impending free agent), and the Pacers received another likely one year rental player in Turner, who's simply a better player right now.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    I wonder if this Clippers game is on ESPN TNT or NBA TV tonight?
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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    No. Miami/Houston at 8. LAL/NOP at 1030. Both on NBAtv.
    “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    I didn't say he missed 2 seasons I said he's lost almost 2 seasons to it and it's taken too long to recover from an injury which was originally thought to be a 3 month rehab with no surgery.

    I'm not bashing the guy at all.
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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Pretty much anyone you can think of who had an ACL injury. I could provide a narrower list, but why bother when you have that many examples?

    But let's get one thing cleared up, no one is saying he will "be anything close to his former self." He'll never be the same player. What is being said, is that the player he is right now, could (and probably) will get better just over time. How much better? I don't know, but players aren't 10 months removed from major knee sugery and back to their new "normal."

    It's an impossible standard to have for players. One, or even a couple, might be the exception, but it's just setting people up for failure.


    This stuff isn't something that I just picked up, or pulled out of my rear. Even though I don't work in this field, this kind of stuff is exactly what I went to school for, majored in Exercise Science with a minor in athletic training. I'm not an expert, but thinking "hey this guy is 10 months from major knee surgery, he should be fully healed!" just isn't anywhere near reality.
    Grant Hill would like to thank you for not counting out players who dealt with serious injuries.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 03-05-2014 at 11:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I didn't say he missed 2 seasons I said he's lost almost 2 seasons to it and it's taken too long to recover from an injury which was originally thought to be a 3 month rehab with no surgery.

    I'm not bashing the guy at all.
    I know, and I am saying the time he missed wasn't even close to almost 2 seasons. In order to make such a claim I would expect him to have missed at least a season and a half.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I know, and I am saying the time he missed wasn't even close to almost 2 seasons. In order to make such a claim I would expect him to have missed at least a season and a half.
    Well the people that are arguing that he needs more time, are basically giving him more time to recover from his injury. How about Danny hasn't played like a solid NBA player in 22 months?
    @qandrews9428

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    Well the people that are arguing that he needs more time, are basically giving him more time to recover from his injury. How about Danny hasn't played like a solid NBA player in 22 months?
    He has played like a solid NBA player this season. He just hasn't been consistent. People can choose to ignore that, but it is reality. He started strong, looked real good. Made our bench, even with a slumping Scola, look like one of the best in the league. Then he started to struggle some, which just happened to coincide with a west coast road trip, and an increased amount of back-to-back scenarios. During this time he still tended to play well at home with at least a day of rest. He struggled on the road, especially when it was the second night of a back-to-back, and when he was given extended minutes. That suggests his problems have more to do with conditioning than ability.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    He has played like a solid NBA player this season. He just hasn't been consistent. People can choose to ignore that, but it is reality. He started strong, looked real good. Made our bench, even with a slumping Scola, look like one of the best in the league. Then he started to struggle some, which just happened to coincide with a west coast road trip, and an increased amount of back-to-back scenarios. During this time he still tended to play well at home with at least a day of rest. He struggled on the road, especially when it was the second night of a back-to-back, and when he was given extended minutes. That suggests his problems have more to do with conditioning than ability.
    And then he more than offset those good-great 2-3 games with numerous poor displays of shooting. He shot 36% overall, which indicates overall he did more harm than good.
    @qandrews9428

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    And then he more than offset those good-great 2-3 games with numerous poor displays of shooting. He shot 36% overall, which indicates overall he did more harm than good.
    There is a lot more that goes into being a solid NBA player than FG percentage. Obviously it's a terrible percentage, but he was still able to average 8 ppg. 8 ppg, plus solid defense more than equates to a solid NBA player.

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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    The final piece to the Clippers championship run! He'll be averaging 8/3/1 and playing passable defense in no time. And what team wouldn't take that? Plus he's a great guy. GO 33!!!!!!
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    Default Re: Danny Granger Signs with the Clippers

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    And then he more than offset those good-great 2-3 games with numerous poor displays of shooting. He shot 36% overall, which indicates overall he did more harm than good.
    Yes the 10 game period where he averaged 10.7ppg on 40.9% shooting (which jumps to 43.2% and 11.667ppg if you ignore the 2point, 1 for 7 game this 10 game period includes) with 3.7 rebounds and 1.4 assists. That looks like statistics of a solid NBA player.

    You obviously have a terrible memory if you only remember him playing well in two or three games where he played well. From the look of it you don't even remember those. You are using selective memory, and limited statistical analysis in order to form an inaccurate opinion of Danny. Was his shooting bad a lot? Yes, definitely, that is obvious. At the same time it was good also a lot of times. His overall play was almost always a net-positive, in terms of team impact he usually ranks ahead of Lance as far as having a positive impact. I have posted these stats many times, but most people just want to look at FG% and announce he is a lost cause while ignoring 90% of everything else he was doing on the court.

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