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Thread: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

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    Default Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story...-missing-piece

    The Indiana Pacers converted a buzzer-beater at the trade deadline, but did it put them over the top?

    That's the biggest question coming out of the NBA's sleepy trade deadline that wrapped up Thursday. The Pacers have a two-game cushion on the Miami Heat for the East's top seed, and they picked up former No. 2 pick Evan Turner and reserve big man Lavoy Allen for Danny Granger's expiring contract and a future second-round pick to aid their cause.

    But is Turner the ringer who gets them past the Heat?

    It all comes down to Indiana's player development staff -- an operation that has the league's envy by repeatedly spinning straw into gold.

    Like the Oklahoma City Thunder, the small-market Pacers can hang with the big boys of the NBA because of their ability to cultivate young talent and turn potential into reality. It's a testament to their built-from-within grooming that Turner now becomes the first player on Indiana's current roster who has been picked inside the top 10 of the draft. Roy Hibbert, Paul George, David West, Lance Stephenson and George Hill -- all were picked 10th or later.

    Can Evan Turner become the piece that gets Indiana past Miami in the playoffs?
    But Turner represents a new test for the homemade Pacers: the reclamation project. This is about getting a seat at the table with San Antonio and Miami, who have routinely rejuvenated players' careers. If Turner is going to put the Pacers over the edge, they have a lot of work to do.

    Yes, Turner's averaging 17.4 points, 6.0 rebounds, 3.7 assists per game, which may seem to signal that he's enjoying a career year. But don't pay too much attention to Turner's traditional stats. In reality, he's an inefficient, pound-the-rock scorer who lives in the midrange and coughs up the ball too often. His PER stands at 13.3, nestling somewhere between replacement level and league average.

    Turner can thank the Sixers' helter-skelter offense for much of his inflated statistics. The Sixers average 102.5 possessions per game, which is 6.7 percent higher than your typical NBA team. If we adjust Turner's numbers for pace, his statistical profile doesn't look nearly as impressive. His lukewarm PER is a far more accurate portrayal of Turner's abilities to date.

    But Turner won't be asked to be the Pacers' horse and that may spur more growth for the 25-year-old. Turner saw his usage rate bump to a career-high 24.2 percent this season and the flood of shots propelled his scoring average to new heights. But his lukewarm efficiency never warranted all those shots. In Indiana, Turner won't have to bear that burden anymore. He'll likely come off the bench and anchor Indiana's second unit, where he can stay in his lane and inject some playmaking where Granger could not.

    Turning someone who has been labeled a massive bust into a reliable championship cog won't happen overnight. The key is whether Indiana's staff can get Turner to take better care of the ball (3.0 turnovers per 36 minutes). Turnovers provide the oxygen for the Heat's open-court attack, making this particular area of improvement critical for Turner's success. In Philadelphia, Turner had a tendency to force drives and end up at a dead end with nowhere to go.

    For a Pacers team that already has issues taking care of the ball (23rd in team turnover rate), coach Frank Vogel should make it a priority to make things easier for Turner and not make him have to do much heavy lifting. The Pacers can pull this off if he shares minutes with Hill, Stephenson and George, but not if he's left out to dry as he often found himself in Philadelphia.

    We'll see how much Hibbert can cover up Turner's mistakes on the other end. This is the added benefit of Vogel's defensive system that relies on Hibbert to function as both the plug and the eraser. According to Synergy video tracking, Turner had a big hand in the Sixers' horrendous defense as he ranked as the single-worst defender on a per-possession basis among 87 players with at least 500 plays defended. He's particularly lazy on closeouts, but Hibbert should help there as Turner knows he can glue himself to his man, knowing he has a safety net in Hibbert. Again, it's all about the system.

    At the end of the day, the Pacers' last-minute trade is more about trusting their developmental staff and organizational principles than it is about trusting Turner. Can Vogel and his staff convince Turner to play selfless, disciplined basketball in the midst of a contract year?

    From what we can tell from Turner's track record, the odds are against them. But time and time again, Indiana has proved that the organization's golden track record is what matters most.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Good read. Turner will drive you mad at times. I know when I watched him a lot(his rookie and 2nd year)he made so many terrible decisions. He takes so many bad shots, and bad basketball plays. It will be interesting to see if we can break him of these habits. I don't know who said he was a smart player(I read it earlier), but from everything I know about him, and all the tape I have watched he is far from a good decision maker.


    I did watch him play a few times this season. I thought he was getting to the hole a lot more. He was still taking hard shots though. Hard to take a lot from watching that Philly team a bunch of hot garbage. I hope teh personal around him will help him.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Hard to take a lot from watching that Philly team a bunch of hot garbage.
    This is the main thing. He was an inefficient first option on one of the worst teams in the league. Nobody knows how he will do in a 20 minute per game situation that he has never been in before. It would be remarkable if this move somehow made our offense worse though.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    So, what Turner appears to be is TJ Ford without the spinal stenosis or quick explosiveness on offense, while being remarkably similar on defense?

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    Nobody knows how he will do in a 20 minute per game situation that he has never been in before.
    Wasn't this essentially how Doug Collins used him in his second season?

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    What I hope is that Vogel doesn't force him to take shots that he's not good at taking….specifically 3pt shots.

    If his offensive game is mainly centered around a mid-range game…or whatever his offensive strengths are…I hope that we take advantage of that.

    As for his turnovers……I really hope that we minimize the chances for him to turn the ball over. Turnovers are the Pacers achilles heel…..and I don't want to add to it…I want to minimize it to the best of our ability.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    This is the main thing. He was an inefficient first option on one of the worst teams in the league. Nobody knows how he will do in a 20 minute per game situation that he has never been in before. It would be remarkable if this move somehow made our offense worse though.
    Here's my devil's advocate reply to this type of response: Evan Turner has been known to be a prickly teammate in the past. He wants high usage. He wants numbers. The guy is playing for a contract. My fear is that he is going to come in the game, knowing he only has about 20 minutes to get stats up, and become ball dominant and try to "get his". You already see this to a certain extent with Lance, except Lance is a plus defender. Turner's defense worries me too. He will most likely be playing with the second unit, so Roy isn't going to be there covering his *** when his matador defense lets his defender fly right by him (I actually think Turner would be better suited at the 3 spot, personally). Ian does a decent job of protecting the rim, certainly better than anyone on Philadelphia, so that will help. Bynum's one plus this year is that opponents are shooting something like 28% around the rim when he is in the game, so even when Bynum comes back, again, that should help. But this:
    He's particularly lazy on closeouts
    ain't gonna fly. Part of why we are such a strong defense is that we close out on three point shooters better than anyone in the league. Turner is going to need some coaching. I trust our staff to be able to do it, but I do have my worries about Evan Turner.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    ain't gonna fly. Part of why we are such a strong defense is that we close out on three point shooters better than anyone in the league. Turner is going to need some coaching. I trust our staff to be able to do it, but I do have my worries about Evan Turner.
    That's what scares me the most. Lance doesn't look like he's getting any coaching right now and if Turner is similar to Lance, I see a bad combination ready to happen. We need Lance to be almost pulled from the second unit anyway.
    The past 15 games our interior D has been as good as ever but our perimeter D has sucked. Paul has gone from elite to inconsistent and Lance has looked terrible on D. This would be a good time for Vogel to reemphasis our plan for defending the 3.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    That's what scares me the most. Lance doesn't look like he's getting any coaching right now and if Turner is similar to Lance, I see a bad combination ready to happen. We need Lance to be almost pulled from the second unit anyway.
    The past 15 games our interior D has been as good as ever but our perimeter D has sucked. Paul has gone from elite to inconsistent and Lance has looked terrible on D. This would be a good time for Vogel to reemphasis our plan for defending the 3.
    Vogel is a player's coach, but I agree, it's about time he steps in and shortens Lance's leash. Especially when it comes to showing up his teammates. I can forgive a lot of his other antics, but that is not one of them.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    That's what scares me the most. Lance doesn't look like he's getting any coaching right now and if Turner is similar to Lance, I see a bad combination ready to happen. We need Lance to be almost pulled from the second unit anyway.
    The past 15 games our interior D has been as good as ever but our perimeter D has sucked. Paul has gone from elite to inconsistent and Lance has looked terrible on D. This would be a good time for Vogel to reemphasis our plan for defending the 3.
    Our off-the-ball defense has been pretty bad recently. Guys getting open for 3, guys getting open on backdoor cuts, etc. Too much ball watching and then gambling as opposed to simply staying at home and being fundamentally sound defensively.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Vogel is a player's coach, but I agree, it's about time he steps in and shortens Lance's leash. Especially when it comes to showing up his teammates. I can forgive a lot of his other antics, but that is not one of them.
    I agree. I think players like Roy and David do better with a players coach. I'm starting to think Lance needs a Larry Brown.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    I think too much is being made of his days in Philly. Look at his career at Ohio State for a better accounting of what he is capable of. Ohio State had more talent (at the college level) than Philly (at NBA level). I always loved his game at OSU. There are good reasons he was drafted number 2.

    Many defended Granger's steadily declining FG% to him being the best pllayer on a bad team, thus attracting more defenders, and also forcing him to take bad shots. I think the same was true of Turner in Philly. That won't happen now.
    Last edited by Tom White; 02-21-2014 at 10:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I think too much is being made of his days in Philly. Look at his career at Ohio State for a better accounting of what he is capable of. Ohio State had more talent (at the college level) than Philly (at NBA level). I always loved his game at OSU. There are good reasons he was drafted number 2.
    He is too far removed from college to be judging him based of it.

    He thinks hes the man now, and that is valid concern. At the moment I don't see how he and Lance could be on the court at the same time

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I think too much is being made of his days in Philly. Look at his career at Ohio State for a better accounting of what he is capable of. Ohio State had more talent (at the college level) than Philly (at NBA level). I always loved his game at OSU. There are good reasons he was drafted number 2.
    I'm sorry, but I can't buy that argument. Never will I put more stock into a guy's college career than a 3+ year NBA sample size. There are good reasons he was drafted second overall; he just hasn't put them together yet. He can get there, but this is another reason why outright tanking doesn't work: It develops losing habits in your players, even the young ones you are "building" around. Obviously Philly wasn't building around Turner, but these guys aren't learning how to win.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    3 point shooting is not a necessity to be an effective floor spreader. If Turner can refine his game into a more dynamic Rip Hamilton style, he will have a niche in this league for a long long time. I think it would behoove the coaching staff to not force the 3 point shot onto him at all and instead emphasize solid ball control and purposeful offensive cuts. None of that pounding the ball for a large percentage of the shot clock.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Good read. Turner will drive you mad at times. I know when I watched him a lot(his rookie and 2nd year)he made so many terrible decisions. He takes so many bad shots, and bad basketball plays. It will be interesting to see if we can break him of these habits. I don't know who said he was a smart player(I read it earlier), but from everything I know about him, and all the tape I have watched he is far from a good decision maker.


    I did watch him play a few times this season. I thought he was getting to the hole a lot more. He was still taking hard shots though. Hard to take a lot from watching that Philly team a bunch of hot garbage. I hope teh personal around him will help him.
    I was the poster you're referring to. I didn't say he was a smart player, just smarter than Lance. I know he has a bit of a higher turnover average than Lance, but he was miscast as a number one option, so he had to attempt to do a bit more than what he should be. You thought that Lance plays harder, and when Lance is "on" I agree, but when things don't go Lance's way he tends to sulk.

    I own league pass so I watch quite a bit of basketball. I've taken in about 10 games of the 76ers this year, and I guess what I saw was different that the analysis of Turner's game.

    I saw a guy that is a plus ball handler for a wing, can break his man down and get to the basket or to the FT line, which is something we desperately need. (right now he averages 4.2 FTA/gm which would be second on the team) He's also got a nice mid range game. Without having to worry about the opposing teams top defender guarding him, he should be able to find easier ways to score.

    Bird has always gunned for a 6th man that can get his own shot and get buckets (infatuations with Jamal Crawford, OJ Mayo, etc) and I think Turner fits that criteria.

    I agree wholeheartedly with the fact that the rotation needs to change and we need Hill in the game as opposed to Lance with the second unit. Allow Turner to handle the ball and look to score, while Hill and CJ spot up. Turner and Lance should limit their time on the court together however.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    I never know a player until they either play on the Pacers or the Pacers play against him in a playoff series. Of course I know them much better when they are a Pacer vs just playing against in a playoff series.

    So while I have watched him a number of times, I don't know him well enough to know.

    My guess is he is a mariginal help over Danny this season and decent insurance in case we cannot re-sign lance.

    But my expectations are in check for Turner. Overall impact if he is as good or slightly better than CJ Watson I'll be thrilled.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-21-2014 at 12:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    I remembered him as a good ball handler, creater & efficient mid-range scorer at Ohio State. Also thought of him as a solid if not spectacular defender. The turnover stats, defensive stats and comments from Zach Lowe (whose opinion I respect) are troubling enough that now I have cooled on the trade a bit.

    Based on personal observations from watching them both play this year I still believe him to be a solid upgrade over Granger but now question his real worth as "Lance" insurance. Looking more & more like a playoff run rental to me.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Danny's a great scorer/shooter, a good one on one defender against non speed. Turner can make guys around him better with his passing and playmaking. They are really two different players. Turner, if he adapts, could be a 3rd guy in that bench who can make guys around him get better shots, so it doesn't completely fall on Lance. BTW, Scola is the 2nd guy imo. He's not a great passer necessarily, but he understands the game from a spacing and awareness perspective.

    Offensively, I really like the potential of that 2nd group with Turner, they needed another guy who can make the pass before the pass and see plays developing. That's just not Granger. Hopefully Turner hasn't played in such a bad brand of basketball that he can fall back into this.

    I blame the bad teams and coaching for Danny becoming a scorer and not more, but I also blame his injury. It's tough to undo years of chuck 'em mentality and its not really his fault, its what they needed at that time.

    Turner sees they floor, Danny never has. I hope defensively this is at least a push. That's my main concern as much as I like Turner's Bball IQ offensively, I don't recall ever thinking he was that smart defensively in the team concept and he's limited in foot speed one on one. Much like DG, actually.

    I don't know if Turner is a tough as Danny and I don't know if this impacts team chemistry much, but thats for David West to police. Those intangible things are huge wild cards, imo.

    Lastly, my favorite quote from the articles about this trade is this. Turner's floor was Granger's celing over the rest of the season. I think that's probably right.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    sounds like David West needs a raise with all the policing he might have to do.


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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    sounds like David West needs a raise with all the policing he might have to do.

    Hey Buck, I think that's actually a big part of why he does get paid good, for 12 pts / 7 boards. He's a leader and well also that he's a BAMF.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    I think it's funny everyone talks about Philly's pace while giving Turner pretty much zero credit for them being able to play at that pace, even though his specific skill set alongside MCW is one of the biggest reasons they were able to and surprised some people early in the year.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I think it's funny everyone talks about Philly's pace while giving Turner pretty much zero credit for them being able to play at that pace, even though his specific skill set alongside MCW is one of the biggest reasons they were able to and surprised some people early in the year.
    He gets discredited for scoring so much in a high pace offense, but still gets blamed for the high turnovers. You can't have it both ways. It's either a factor for both or neither.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

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    He is too far removed from college to be judging him based of it.

    He thinks hes the man now, and that is valid concern. At the moment I don't see how he and Lance could be on the court at the same time
    I think the biggest factor is that "he can play defense" when he was at OSU. I didn't have the same impression with Lance at Cincy but that is a big indicator for me on whether he can or will fit in and I tend to think culture can create a lot of bad habits some of which we know all to well with Danny and JOB.

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    Default Re: Is Evan Turner Indiana's Missing Piece? ESPN Article

    From a personnel standpoint, I can't remember a team this stacked. You're talking Hill/Lance/PG/West/Hibbert starting, proven to be the best starting five in the league, and now you follow those guys with CJ/Turner/Scola/Bynum? Those four guys could all start in this league. CJ at point, Turner at the guard spot, Butler or Copeland at the three, Scola at 4, Bynum at 5, that would be my preferred second team.

    I just can't believe how this roster has been turned around from the JOB days. Wowzers.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 02-21-2014 at 01:45 PM.
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