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Thread: what is our new lineup and rotation?

  1. #76
    Member Fo11ower91's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Exactly. Turner is too good for only 22 minutes a game.

  2. #77

    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyGray35 View Post
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    Exactly. Turner is too good for only 22 minutes a game.
    Is Turner better than Lance? Is Turner better than Paul? Those are the two guys he's competing for minutes with. If he turns out to be better, then he will get more minutes. If not, then no. Frank only has 96 mpg to go around. To play Turner more means playing Lance or Paul less.

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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    Is Turner better than Lance? Is Turner better than Paul? Those are the two guys he's competing for minutes with. If he turns out to be better, then he will get more minutes. If not, then no. Frank only has 96 mpg to go around. To play Turner more means playing Lance or Paul less.
    I always think that when people are clamoring to "find minutes" for bit players like Butler or Copeland. Who's minutes are you cutting into to scrape out 5-7 minutes or whatever per game? In Copeland's case, I understand there is a desire to give him Scola's minutes (and with the way Scola has been playing, there's good reason for it). But we aren't going to a 10 man rotation and barring injury, these guys just aren't going to see the court.

  5. #79
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Turner is not as good as Lance...unless you ignore the fact Lance has better assists, rebounds, FG% and even 3PT FG%. Lance also has a far better assist/TO ratio..with less TO and far more assists. Lance even plays more minutes and has less fouls. Clearly a better player...and why Turner was acquired for the bench and possibly Lansurance.

    Edit: Not to mention Lance is starting and producing in this way a far better team.

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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    Is Turner better than Lance? Is Turner better than Paul? Those are the two guys he's competing for minutes with. If he turns out to be better, then he will get more minutes. If not, then no. Frank only has 96 mpg to go around. To play Turner more means playing Lance or Paul less.
    If he's not better then let's just play Paul and Lance 48 minutes each?
    The fact is we're playing both a little too much. Both players aren't playing perimeter D the way they started the season and I think playing time is a factor. Lance is much improved but IMO he's been net negative with the second unit in most games. I'd like to see Lance reduced by 5 minutes and Paul by maybe 2. That's not a lot but if we have a bench player capable of giving us what we need we should give him those 7 minutes.

  7. #81
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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Turner is not as good as Lance...unless you ignore the fact Lance has better assists, rebounds, FG% and even 3PT FG%. Lance also has a far better assist/TO ratio..with less TO and far more assists. Lance even plays more minutes and has less fouls. Clearly a better player...and why Turner was acquired for the bench and possibly Lansurance.

    Edit: Not to mention Lance is starting and producing in this way a far better team.
    I don't think anybody can point to statistics and gather a fair comparison of the two players due to the extreme differences in circumstances.

    Lance and Evan are two similarly skilled players. Both are rather versatile players who can handle the ball and are great rebounders for their position. Turner has played on a lesser team with lesser talent and was miscast as a number one option this season, whereas Lance plays with 3 other all star caliber players and a backcourt mate who's skills and demeanor compliment him about as perfectly as possible.

    Im sure if the roles were switched (with Lance on a team that's looking to tank, and Turner on a contending team), you'd see similar production out of both players.

    It'll be interesting to see what type of different dynamic Evan can bring to the team as the 6th man.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 02-23-2014 at 11:14 PM.

  8. #82
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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    great discussion going. made me think of the JOB days.

    who woulda thunk it only 3 seasons ago that the most pertinent discussion on PD is how do we play our bench reserves these days. I realize the goal is a championship but its really nice to not suck and be simply looking forward to free agency and the offseason lottery.

    included my sig just as a reminder of how bad this Franchise was not long ago and now were on the track for contending in the NBA Finals.

    Arguing over bench minutes to cope or scola,, Bynum or mahinmi, lance or turner.... and not who the best free agents are that be available.

    Good times to be a Pacers fan these days! Time to hang a BANNER in the FIELDHOUSE this season.

    This pacers team is stacked. its like an nba2k team someone assembled manipulating the roster. Bird has exceeded all expectations.

  9. #83

    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I always think that when people are clamoring to "find minutes" for bit players like Butler or Copeland. Who's minutes are you cutting into to scrape out 5-7 minutes or whatever per game? In Copeland's case, I understand there is a desire to give him Scola's minutes (and with the way Scola has been playing, there's good reason for it). But we aren't going to a 10 man rotation and barring injury, these guys just aren't going to see the court.



    I don't see why people are so against 10 man rotations. They allow starters to get more rest and be fresher for 4th quarters and potential overtimes. It's so anti-productivity.

    A bench of Allen, Cope, Bynum, Turner, and Watson is loaded with offensive potential. If you're gonna not play someone? How about not playing CJ? If you're gonna roll with a 9 man roto.....then do.....Allen, Cope, Bynum, Turner, Lance? Turner or Lance would be the ball-bringer-uppers in that rotation. CJ isn't giving us anything these days. Cope can shoot. If he's open it's almost always a make.

  10. #84

    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    Is Turner better than Lance? Is Turner better than Paul? Those are the two guys he's competing for minutes with. If he turns out to be better, then he will get more minutes. If not, then no. Frank only has 96 mpg to go around. To play Turner more means playing Lance or Paul less.
    Isn't the real question"Is Turner better than Granger for the team?' The best place to get more minutes for Turner is to eat into Lance and Paul's minutes. Although Turner has shown himself capable of playing some Point when he has to. When G. Hill and Luis get healthy again, Frank and his crew have some very interesting combos to try out. With our schedule at it's "easiest" we have seen or are going to see, and very few b2b's left, we have some well needed practice time. Plus, if Philly buys out Danny, we could cut Sloan and pick DG up for the end run?

  11. #85

    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    Isn't the real question"Is Turner better than Granger for the team?' The best place to get more minutes for Turner is to eat into Lance and Paul's minutes. Although Turner has shown himself capable of playing some Point when he has to. When G. Hill and Luis get healthy again, Frank and his crew have some very interesting combos to try out. With our schedule at it's "easiest" we have seen or are going to see, and very few b2b's left, we have some well needed practice time. Plus, if Philly buys out Danny, we could cut Sloan and pick DG up for the end run?

    to answer your last question first, no they cannot. They have to wait 6 months, I believe.

    The question of Turner vs Granger is one for PD, but not for Frank. Danny is gone, Evan is here. Good, bad or indifferent, that's the way it is. If Turner is going to get more minutes, they are going to come from Paul and Lance. It might be a good idea to play Paul and Lance less, and with an additional ball handler. Personally, I hope that Turner turns out to be the guy that got drafted 2nd in 2010.

    I expect there will not be much change in rotations and minutes from what the Pacers did in the first half of the season. 9 guys.

  12. #86

    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    I'm curious about what the playoff minute distribution will look like. Last year all the starters played a shade over or under 40 minutes a game in the Miami series. That leaves around 8-10 minutes per position for the backups. Bynum/Ian and Scola at 8-10 minutes at the back up Center and PF respectively, Evan Turner with the 16 back up SF and SG minutes and Watson with 8 at PG. The ability of Lance and Hill to play both guard spots and Turner/Paul to slide between shooting guard and small forward should make the minutes easy to distribute.

    Ideally it would look like this:

    Hill 40/Watson 8
    Lance 40/Turner 8
    George 40/Turner 8
    West 40/Scola 8
    Hibbert 40/Bynum 8

    Of course this doesn't include injuries/foul trouble/ejections etc.

  13. #87
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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    I would imagine that unless ET is really struggling here, he'll get more than 16 minutes in the playoffs.

    With he and Lance around, I wonder if Vogel will ever try playing both of them at once WITH Paul at SF, since you have 2 guys very capable of bringing the ball up the floor, and PG can do it too to a point.

  14. #88

    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    I don't expect the starting 5 to play that kind of minutes. More like a 35-15 split. With Turner getting all the backup wing minutes.

    I don't really expect to see the Pacers play without a PG on the floor. There is a big difference between bringing the ball up the court during the regular season and bringing it up vs full court pressure in the playoffs. Any team that sees the Pacers using 2 SG and a SF to handle the ball will be pressuring the ball for sure. Given the Pacer's TO's issues, I just don't see playing without a PG on the floor being a good idea.

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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I always think that when people are clamoring to "find minutes" for bit players like Butler or Copeland. Who's minutes are you cutting into to scrape out 5-7 minutes or whatever per game? In Copeland's case, I understand there is a desire to give him Scola's minutes (and with the way Scola has been playing, there's good reason for it). But we aren't going to a 10 man rotation and barring injury, these guys just aren't going to see the court.
    If Turner turns out to be a solid contributor and can be paired up with GH and/or CJ as much as possible.......I have no problem shaving 2 to 3 minutes off of both Lance and PG24s overall game minutes to get them down to 33 mpg. If anything...it'd cut down on the Team's turnovers.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    If Turner turns out to be a solid contributor and can be paired up with GH and/or CJ as much as possible.......I have no problem shaving 2 to 3 minutes off of both Lance and PG24s overall game minutes to get them down to 33 mpg. If anything...it'd cut down on the Team's turnovers.
    Unless Turner is turning the ball over like he has been this season.

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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    I don't see why people are so against 10 man rotations. They allow starters to get more rest and be fresher for 4th quarters and potential overtimes. It's so anti-productivity.
    10-man rotations are unicorn-rare in the playoffs. Fine during the regular season.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    I don't see why people are so against 10 man rotations. They allow starters to get more rest and be fresher for 4th quarters and potential overtimes. It's so anti-productivity.

    A bench of Allen, Cope, Bynum, Turner, and Watson is loaded with offensive potential. If you're gonna not play someone? How about not playing CJ? If you're gonna roll with a 9 man roto.....then do.....Allen, Cope, Bynum, Turner, Lance? Turner or Lance would be the ball-bringer-uppers in that rotation. CJ isn't giving us anything these days. Cope can shoot. If he's open it's almost always a make.
    Anti-productivity is not playing your starters (aka your best players) maximum minutes on the court.

    On the right teams in the right environments, I don't really have a problem with 10 man rotations in general, I just have a problem with 10 man rotations on this team. Our bench, with all the tinkering, wheeling & dealing we've done to it, is still something of a liability. The reason the second unit stays afloat often has been the play of the lone starter out there--Stephenson. We are in a battle for the #1 seed and trying to establish a championship rotation that will work in the playoffs. A 10 man rotation won't be played in the playoffs.

  20. #93

    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Like I said..I want CJ-Lance/Turner/Cope/Scola/Bynum.

    CJ + Cope for 3pts
    turner + Scola midrange
    bynum- post

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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by 31Since1990 View Post
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    Like I said..I want CJ-Lance/Turner/Cope/Scola/Bynum.

    CJ + Cope for 3pts
    turner + Scola midrange
    bynum- post
    With a lineup like that, you are asking an awful lot out of Andrew Bynum defensively. Scola, Cope, and Turner all have issues staying in front of their man. Bynum would need to be at his rim protecting best for that lineup not to be a total sieve on defense.

  22. #95
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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Has Indiana ever had a single team with this much talent stacked on one roster?

    For comparison's sake, let's compare our current roster to our team in 2007:

    2007:

    Marquis Daniels
    Travis Diener
    Ike Diogu
    Mike Dunleavy
    Jeff Foster
    Stephen Graham
    Danny Granger
    David Harrison
    Troy Murphy
    Ronald Murray
    Jermaine O'Neal
    Andre Owens
    Kareem Rush
    Courtney Sims
    Jamaal Tinsley
    Shawne Williams

    2014:

    Lavoy Allen
    Rasual Butler
    Andrew Bynum
    Chris Copeland
    Paul George
    Roy Hibbert
    George Hill
    Solomon Hill
    Ian Mahinmi
    Luis Scola
    Donald Sloan
    Lance Stephenson
    Evan Turner
    C.J. Watson
    David West


    If you consider that the players in bold are/were legitimate rotation players at the time, it's unbelievable how much has changed. Genuine competition for most bench positions.

  23. #96
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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    I think Turner will give us a dynamic player in our second unit. Something that we didn't have before unless Lance was playing with that group. I don't want to get into the Turner vs. Lance debate, but I do know that when "Bad Lance" shows up (which still occurs every now and then), Vogel should have a pretty good alternative to turn to, and turn to quickly.

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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Unless Turner is turning the ball over like he has been this season.
    Hence, why I suggested that he try to play as many minutes with GH and/or CJ alongside PG24.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Has Indiana ever had a single team with this much talent stacked on one roster?

    For comparison's sake, let's compare our current roster to our team in 2007:

    2007:

    Marquis Daniels
    Travis Diener
    Ike Diogu
    Mike Dunleavy
    Jeff Foster
    Stephen Graham
    Danny Granger
    David Harrison
    Troy Murphy
    Ronald Murray
    Jermaine O'Neal
    Andre Owens
    Kareem Rush
    Courtney Sims
    Jamaal Tinsley
    Shawne Williams

    2014:

    Lavoy Allen
    Rasual Butler
    Andrew Bynum
    Chris Copeland
    Paul George
    Roy Hibbert
    George Hill
    Solomon Hill
    Ian Mahinmi
    Luis Scola
    Donald Sloan
    Lance Stephenson
    Evan Turner
    C.J. Watson
    David West


    If you consider that the players in bold are/were legitimate rotation players at the time, it's unbelievable how much has changed. Genuine competition for most bench positions.
    I'd compare this year's lineup to the one that made it to the NBA finals under Bird....or even the lineup that finished with the best record in the NBA ( I recall it had JONeal, Artest and Reggie on it ).
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  26. #99

    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Anti-productivity is not playing your starters (aka your best players) maximum minutes on the court.

    On the right teams in the right environments, I don't really have a problem with 10 man rotations in general, I just have a problem with 10 man rotations on this team. Our bench, with all the tinkering, wheeling & dealing we've done to it, is still something of a liability. The reason the second unit stays afloat often has been the play of the lone starter out there--Stephenson. We are in a battle for the #1 seed and trying to establish a championship rotation that will work in the playoffs. A 10 man rotation won't be played in the playoffs.


    Well if they're sticking with 9 guys we need as many shooters as possible. Right now, I like Allen over Scola. He gives us Scola range in shot, but he plays defense better due to quicker feet and youth. I like Copeland at the 3 because he stretches the defense with the 3 ball. Turner and Lance in the backcourt would kill teams if they can play together. Two legit rim attackers.

    Turner is also a good shooter. He is not on the pure level of KD or Melo, but he reminds me of Wade a bit. His jumper is there, but the three ball he won't make more than 2 or 3 in a game. Wade was never nor is he today, a decent 3 point shooter. Then you add Bynum.




    Allen
    Cope
    Bynum (currently Ian)
    Turner
    Lance




    I like CJ but having a big backcourt that can attack the rim in Lance and Evan is just too tempting. We move CJ out for Cope's 3 point ability. CJ isn't as good a 3 point shooter. Not these days anyways.

  27. #100
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    Default Re: what is our new lineup and rotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    10-man rotations are unicorn-rare in the playoffs. Fine during the regular season.
    I fully expect that we'd be going with a 9 man rotation of GH/Lance/PG24/West/Hibbert/Turner/CJ/Mahinmi and some combination of Scola OR Copeland....but not both.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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