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Thread: Granger traded to Philly

  1. #1026
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Bird didnt' even talk to Vogel about it. Dude wasn't even in town to break the news to Danny in person. Probably skipped town just for that purpose.
    Larry Bird. Not man enough to deliver some bad news to Danny ****ing Granger.

    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Did Danny do anything wrong, or was it literally just everyone else's fault?
    Bird was not happy with Danny's production. DG was supposed to be, to a lesser extent, Indiana's version of Manu Ginobli or Jamaal Crawford of the bench. A difference maker, a game changer off the bench. Through 30 games, it was apparent that Danny could not perform at that high of a level. DG was playing like "just another guy" off the bench. Larry was looking for much more from our best bench player. I understand that it takes a long time for players to come back from Danny's injury, but I'll trust Bird's judgement that the Danny we saw this year will be the same player for the rest of the season.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    It does take a certain amount of class to do it. Some GMs are ruthless and will do everything they can in order to win a title. Mark Cuban is such an example. He went all-in in 2011, won a title and then dismantled his championship team in hopes of improving their future. RC Buford and the Spurs would not do that.
    It also takes a certain amount of timing not to have to do it. Most of the time with those players the Spurs weren't under LT pressure, and now they are all on the downside end of contracts. Their top paid guy this year makes less than Danny did. Easy to keep players when none of them are on a max deal.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    It's not rocket science to me --- Granger was a good guy, good player, good citizen, and he was also oft-injured and paid a lot of money. Someone offered a cheaper, healthier, younger, arguably more productive player for him and Bird did the right thing for this team and did it.

    He's not a bad guy, Granger isn't a bad guy. It's the NBA, it's the real world. You can't take this stuff personal. Wish people the best and move on. Granger did a lot of good for this team, but Bird has also, and Bird did a lot for Danny Granger. It's silly to hold animosity when everyone involved profited so much from each other.
    Arguably?!?!?!?!?

    There is literally not any sane argument that could possibly be made which would indicate that 2014 Danny Granger is anywhere close to the player that 2014 Evan Turner is. Hell, 2014 Danny Granger isn't even the player that 2014 Lavoy Allen is.

    This is the biggest steal of Larry Bird's life that didn't immediately precede a pass to Dennis Johnson.
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  9. #1030
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Sitting here right now if Lance gets offered a huge contract and we just cannot re-sign him and we can sign Turner for a lot less then I think he is a pretty good replacement. My opinion might change over the course of the next three months. We'll see.

    I suppose the question is let's say we can get Turner for $8m a year and Lance for $10.5 per year, what do we do? Don't jump on the particular salary numbers, because I don't know what they might get, but my point is about the difference in salary. Might 2.5 million be enough to stay under the luxury tax? Or might it allow us to sign a rotation player better than what we already have? Is that enough to offset losing Lance?
    Really, really hard for me to say, but in many ways Evan looks like a less polished Lance right now, and all of Evan's major cons strike me as things the coaching staff can either coach out of his game or fix outright. Even his 3 point shot has the potential to evolve like Lance's has. Evan is decent in the corner and pretty bad everywhere else which sounds exactly like Lance last year to me. I think we will see Evan evolve and add over the next three months. Right now I would say Lance is worth that premium if it is only 2.5 mill difference, but if Evan shows me enough growth between now and June it is not a tough thing to imagine Lance no longer being worth that premium.

    Even Bird is already pushing the brakes on Lance, what did he call him the day after the trade? I'd have to look it up to be sure, but I think larry called Lance a "nice little ball player", I mean still probably praise coming from the Legend, but he's definitely not calling him the most talented Pacer on the roster anymore. Larry is very, very good at working a situation IMO, he showed it with his first move of his basketball career when he got himself drafted to Boston. Dude is much smarter than the Hick from French Lick moniker ever gave him credit for.

    The negotiation triangle between Lance, Turner and Larry will be very interesting to watch this seaosn, but much like you I feel pretty comfortable with Evan as a backup plan especially since their games are so similar.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Larry Bird. Not man enough to deliver some bad news to Danny ****ing Granger.

    Larry bounced from Indy just in case a team called up with a Hail Mary trade offer 30 minutes before the deadline just so he wouldn't have talk to Danny.

    Or more likely, Larry decided it is too ****ing cold in Indy right now and took an extended all star break trip to Florida.

    Larry himself has laways talked about his open line of communication with Danny. That is why we have Paul George it seems, or at least one of the reasons. Plus didn't Larry say Friday he had called Danny ASAP on Thursday but had not heard back? Not blaming Danny for that either I'm sure it was a whirlwind 24 hours, but yeah I agree with you, pretty tough to blame LArry for not being Indy when he wasn't even planning on chasing a deal til Philly pretty much gave us an offer we couldn't refuse.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    If the team was winning at a high clip like the beginning of the season then you bet he wouldn't have been traded. Bird would have felt comfortable enough to let him keep working at it. Sixers present an opportunity to act and Bird took it. But it they were winning then the opportunity wouldn't have looked so appealing.
    I don't think this was about the team. I think it was about him. I haven't had time to look at this closely, but my eyes saw a player who got worse over the course of the season, not better. Off kilter, and losing confidence.

    About what you'd expect from a player that was the top dog, out for ~two years from injury, and believed in the back of his mind that his time with the team was coming to an end. It's just a tragic circumstance.

    Part of me wonders if he was saving up for the post-season, but given the circumstances, and the offer... Bird did the right basketball move with the information he had at the time.

  14. #1033
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Arguably?!?!?!?!?

    There is literally not any sane argument that could possibly be made which would indicate that 2014 Danny Granger is anywhere close to the player that 2014 Evan Turner is. Hell, 2014 Danny Granger isn't even the player that 2014 Lavoy Allen is.

    This is the biggest steal of Larry Bird's life that didn't immediately precede a pass to Dennis Johnson.
    Sure it could be argued. Anything can be argued. It could be argued that if Granger could log Turner's minutes and was given Turner's green light in Philly, he could probably also approach 17/6/3 per game. It could be argued that Granger is a better locker-room leader. It could be argued that Granger did what he did as a backup in limited minutes, in Indy's slow plodding offensive system, coming off a major injury and was just starting to get back into game shape, while Turner got his in starter's minutes, with the starting 5, in a very up-tempo system that perhaps inflated the stats a bit.

    It's all arguable. Obviously, I'm in favor of the trade from a business perspective. But to say that it isn't arguable is not being objective and reasonable. But the clear factor for me is that Turner is much younger, is on the up-swing of his career, is much cheaper... and Granger is on the down-swing, is older, injured, and was damn expensive. I think Turner will be an upgrade and better fit system-wise. I wouldn't expect him to duplicate his stat-line here in Indy, though. And likewise, if Granger hangs on in Philly and contributes, I expect his stats to see a pretty noticeable improvement.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 02-24-2014 at 02:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    It does take a certain amount of class to do it. Some GMs are ruthless and will do everything they can in order to win a title. Mark Cuban is such an example. He went all-in in 2011, won a title and then dismantled his championship team in hopes of improving their future. RC Buford and the Spurs would not do that.
    It's easy to say the Spurs are classy and wouldn't dismantle their team like that. It's easy to say it because the Spurs have had at least one Hall of Fame player on their team since the late 1980s, and so as a result haven't had to do it. Some of that is front office skill, and some of it is dumb luck. Nobody was planning on David Robinson having a season-ending injury, which is what led to Tim Duncan. I think if the Admiral had stayed healthy that season, and there's no Timmy, I think that narrative changes quite a bit.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Sure it could be argued. Anything can be argued. It could be argued that if Granger could log Turner's minutes and was given Turner's green light in Philly, he could probably also approach 17/6/3 per game. It could be argued that Granger is a better locker-room leader. It could be argued that Granger did what he did as a backup in limited minutes, in Indy's slow plodding offensive system, coming off a major injury and was just starting to get back into game shape, while Turner got his in starter's minutes, with the starting 5, in a very up-tempo system that perhaps inflated the stats a bit.

    It's all arguable. Obviously, I'm in favor of the trade from a business perspective. But to say that it isn't arguable is not being objective and reasonable. But the clear factor for me is that Turner is much younger, is on the up-swing of his career, is much cheaper... and Granger is on the down-swing, is older, injured, and was damn expensive. I think Turner will be an upgrade and better fit system-wise. I wouldn't expect him to duplicate his stat-line here in Indy, though. And likewise, if Granger hangs on in Philly and contributes, I expect his stats to see a pretty noticeable improvement.
    I'm a lot more bullish on Granger than most, and I think that it's not arguable. Turner, this season, is a better player. Next season, who knows? I understand the flip side of the argunent, that Turner was the best player on a bad team, but percentages don't lie, and Turner did his shooting being guarded by starters, and Danny made his while being guarded by the bench.

  18. #1036
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    It also takes a certain amount of timing not to have to do it. Most of the time with those players the Spurs weren't under LT pressure, and now they are all on the downside end of contracts. Their top paid guy this year makes less than Danny did. Easy to keep players when none of them are on a max deal.
    I get that, BillS. I'm not trying to discredit the management for doing that trade. I do understand the reasoning behind the move and I welcome Evan Turner and Lavoy Allen to the team with open arms. I can just see the point that Kuq_e_Zi91 made.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    If the team was winning at a high clip like the beginning of the season then you bet he wouldn't have been traded. Bird would have felt comfortable enough to let him keep working at it. Sixers present an opportunity to act and Bird took it. But it they were winning then the opportunity wouldn't have looked so appealing.
    I think this trade has as much to do with this year as it does next year. Bird is no dummy when it comes to Lance and what he will get offered next year and he knows he's up against the LT.

    Now my opinion would change if Bird was actively shopping Granger but he wasn't so I think he was happy with letting it play out. I mean if he needed a reason why they were losing there would be easier scapegoats than Danny and I would think a great basketball mind wouldn't succumb to the notion that Danny was at fault for the entire teams bad play or that removing him from the equation would solve all the losing going on.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    It's easy to say the Spurs are classy and wouldn't dismantle their team like that. It's easy to say it because the Spurs have had at least one Hall of Fame player on their team since the late 1980s, and so as a result haven't had to do it. Some of that is front office skill, and some of it is dumb luck. Nobody was planning on David Robinson having a season-ending injury, which is what led to Tim Duncan. I think if the Admiral had stayed healthy that season, and there's no Timmy, I think that narrative changes quite a bit.
    Perhaps it does. We'll never know. But I'm pretty sure that this team has 1 or 2 guys that are going to be on the HOF one day. And I certainly want to see them retire as Pacers.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Just excited to see Evan play tomorrow so we can hopefully fully move on from this.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Sure it could be argued. Anything can be argued. It could be argued that if Granger could log Turner's minutes and was given Turner's green light in Philly, he could probably also approach 17/6/3 per game. It could be argued that Granger is a better locker-room leader. It could be argued that Granger did what he did as a backup in limited minutes, in Indy's slow plodding offensive system, coming off a major injury and was just starting to get back into game shape, while Turner got his in starter's minutes, with the starting 5, in a very up-tempo system that perhaps inflated the stats a bit.

    It's all arguable. Obviously, I'm in favor of the trade from a business perspective. But to say that it isn't arguable is not being objective and reasonable. But the clear factor for me is that Turner is much younger, is on the up-swing of his career, is much cheaper... and Granger is on the down-swing, is older, injured, and was damn expensive. I think Turner will be an upgrade and better fit system-wise. I wouldn't expect him to duplicate his stat-line here in Indy, though. And likewise, if Granger hangs on in Philly and contributes, I expect his stats to see a pretty noticeable improvement.
    For example, Granger scores 1.07 points per shot this season while Turner has scored 1.12 points per shot. For a grand total difference of 0.03 points per shot. Or in the very likely occurrence that we face Miami in the playoffs, who is going to guard Lebron if Paul is in foul trouble or just to give Paul a break? Personally I don't think it is a good idea to have Paul guard Lebron for 40+ minutes a game. Danny was the only other player on this team that had the ability to not get absolutely destroyed by Lebron, and I doubt Turner is capable. As well most team statistics put Granger as having the 5th or 6th most positive affect on the team, usually ahead of Lance. He may have been shooting poorly, but he was still having a very positive affect on the team as a whole. Part of it was his presence alone opening things up offensively for others, and part of it was his hustle and hard work on the boards and defense. As well it is usually teams with veteran cores that win championships, not young ones.

    Things aren't as always clear cut as they seem on the surface. In order for this trade to work out there will be a major shift in rotations, or Butler is going to prove he can be a consistent threat from 3. Either way there is a whole new set of questions to ask.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Yeah, in our NBA era, the only big names I can think of who started their careers from start to finish as Pacers were Miller and Smits. Miller was obviously a legend who put the franchise on the map and was able to go out on whatever terms he wanted. Smits played 12 years here, which is quite a bit, and was forced into retirement because of foot trouble. So who knows if we would have ultimately cut bait with him too had he tried to keep playing.

    Mark Jackson is another one. Didn't start his career here, but was traded once and then we let him walk after 2000.

    Danny was good, but he was never an "OMG, this guy has to retire as a Pacer no matter what" type of player.
    There was also a Mr. Jeff Foster who spent his whole career here


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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGeorgeHill View Post
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    There was also a Mr. Jeff Foster who spent his whole career here


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    Well if we're going down to that quality of player, then I guess I should mention that we let Vern Fleming walk after he played here 11 years.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Well if we're going down to that quality of player, then I guess I should mention that we let Vern Fleming walk after he played here 11 years.
    Haha but everyone loved Jeff!!! And I guess we could add Jonathan Bender to that list as well lol


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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGeorgeHill View Post
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    Haha but everyone loved Jeff!!! And I guess we could add Jonathan Bender to that list as well lol


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    Didnt Bender have a short stint with the knicks?

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    Didnt Bender have a short stint with the knicks?
    Uh yeah I think you may be right, mark him off the list


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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    WHAT?? We let Vern Fleming go??? Dammit, Bird! You're f'n everything up!
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    For example, Granger scores 1.07 points per shot this season while Turner has scored 1.12 points per shot. For a grand total difference of 0.03 points per shot. Or in the very likely occurrence that we face Miami in the playoffs, who is going to guard Lebron if Paul is in foul trouble or just to give Paul a break? Personally I don't think it is a good idea to have Paul guard Lebron for 40+ minutes a game. Danny was the only other player on this team that had the ability to not get absolutely destroyed by Lebron, and I doubt Turner is capable. As well most team statistics put Granger as having the 5th or 6th most positive affect on the team, usually ahead of Lance. He may have been shooting poorly, but he was still having a very positive affect on the team as a whole. Part of it was his presence alone opening things up offensively for others, and part of it was his hustle and hard work on the boards and defense. As well it is usually teams with veteran cores that win championships, not young ones.

    Things aren't as always clear cut as they seem on the surface. In order for this trade to work out there will be a major shift in rotations, or Butler is going to prove he can be a consistent threat from 3. Either way there is a whole new set of questions to ask.
    I always looked at it as Danny essentially playing the "glue guy" role off the bench that Lance had last year with the starters. (Outside of their shooing percentages, all the other numbers are basically the same).

    Outside of the game against Atl when he lost Korver a few times, I thought he was playing pretty good defensively, was rebounding well, and was doing a good job of being active. Also like Lance from last year, we hadn't seen any proof that Danny was going to be able to be a consistent scorer for us, especially in the playoffs.

    It all boils down to the idea that Turner can provide all of those intangible things AS WELL as offer some punch offensively, and the idea that we can keep Turner in case Lance decides to take a big contract elsewhere. But if we are going to put Turner in the best position to succeed, we should probably tweak the rotation a bit so that Turner isn't playing most of his minutes with Lance the way that Granger was.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    I really, really can't buy into the notion that somehow Granger was handicapped by having to play a large portion of his minutes with Lance.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Are you guys just being hard-headed when it comes to the rotation? Sual is not going to be in the rotation. Copeland is not going to back up Paul. Turner is taking Danny's spot in the rotation, and will therefore play half his time with Lance and half with Paul. Straight from Coach's mouth. Why is this still being discussed.

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  39. #1050

    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    Are you guys just being hard-headed when it comes to the rotation? Sual is not going to be in the rotation. Copeland is not going to back up Paul. Turner is taking Danny's spot in the rotation, and will therefore play half his time with Lance and half with Paul. Straight from Coach's mouth. Why is this still being discussed.
    I thought adding Evan was to give Lance less minutes? All this talk about how Evan is a good playmaker and distributor. I am thinking that maybe they want to see less of Lance with the bench guys. Er go, Evan is the new Lance for the second unit. That's what I was led to believe this trade was about. I guess not, or we'll see? Also playing Copeland at backup 3 and Evan at backup 2 stretches the floor more. Just makes more sense. Evan can go to the basket, draw & kick. Bynum can draw double-teams and kick. And out there is Turner/Copeland/Watson/Allen/Scola.

    Lance is not a great spot up shooter. Cope is more accurate. With Lance, Evan will draw and kick, and Lance will then drive. That would clutter the lane. Also I think our team would benefit more from exploiting the threat of the 3 ball. We can do that with Cope getting dish-outs from ET or AB.
    Last edited by Grimp; 02-24-2014 at 04:27 PM.

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