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Thread: Granger traded to Philly

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Did Danny do anything wrong, or was it literally just everyone else's fault?
    Yeah, you really don't have much to offer to a team when you're a wing who can't shoot, can't create your own shot, and can't score at the rim. Boggles my mind how Granger's teammates or Vogel were supposed to cure those glaring defects.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    I would expect Danny to be better next season if he puts in the offseason work needed. Coming back from a major knee injury and being out for as long as he was, it takes a long time to come back. Plus he isn't 24 years old anymore either.

    I think the Pacers decided Danny wasn't going to improve enough over the next two months to help us much in this years playoffs. So they traded him for younger player who is ,much better right now than Danny. Plus they got a big man who can help us especially if Scola doesn't get his second wind here pretty soon.

    It is IMO as simple as that and trying to read more into it would be IMO a mistake.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    i try to look at it this way:
    if we remove the emotional aspect of this situation and look at it from the business point of view, what do we see here?
    imagine for a moment that this wasn't granger but some injured 1-time all-star vet we picked over the summer on a 1 year deal. he hasn't been playing for quite a while but we got him to see what he could do for our bench. turned out it wasn't much. that guy we had coming off the bench couldn't even manage 36% shooting, had no explosiveness at all, couldn't attack the rim and finish either. and this guy was pulling down 14 million this season too.
    if you remove the emotional aspect of this situation, this trade looks pretty good and gives us a better shot at a title than if we stood by and stuck with him. i also doubt few if any would have any problem moving in another direction and would be more likely to agree the guy wasn't working out as hoped.
    i was bummed as well as a bit shocked when i learned about it but, we hired larry to do everything he could to put this team in the best position possible to win a title. and as we found out, that might even involve trading a popular and well-liked guy like danny.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
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    My intention wasn't to compare Granger with the 3 Spurs. It was only to highlight how trading our longest tenured player, someone who did so much for the city and was well liked and respected, increased my respect for an organization that found ways to keep their longest tenured and most respected players throughout the years. They did so by building around them regardless of their declining abilities and various injuries, rather than trading them for more talent.

    It's hard to say whether winning championships "helped" the Spurs keep their big three in tact because we've seen teams win championships and dismantle their instrumental pieces anyway, and we've also seen teams not win championships and still keep their longest tenured and most respected players.
    I'm not buying the statement that the Pacers organization "found ways to keep their longest tenured and most repected players", or at least, moreso than other franchises. These are examples only from my tenure as a Pacers fan, which began around 1985. We traded Chuck Person when he was Option 1B to Reggie Miller. We traded Herb Williams, who had played 8 years here (and only here) for Detlef, then traded Detlef for Derrick McKey. We traded Antonio Davis for a draft pick. We traded Dale Davis for JO. We traded JO for a draft pick. We traded Jalen Rose when he was option 1B for young players in a teardown move. If you think we haven't traded integral, long-term Pacers veterans for purely basketball reasons, you're viewing this team with rose-colored glasses.

    The other issue with your statement is that Tim Duncan is the best Power Forward who has ever lived and won 4 titles. And Tony Parker is probably going into the Hall of Fame at some point. It makes it a lot easier to keep those guys around when they're that good for that long. Oh, it also helps when those guys are still putting you within a putback of another NBA title. Danny isn't those guys in any recognizable way.

    I think Danny isn't done in the league, and I think he'll be better next year than he was this year, but we're all in THIS year.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    The thing that makes the difference for me is that we would almost certainly not have re-signed him over the summer - and that would likely be just as much because he would have a better offer elsewhere.

    Why is it different from a player like LBJ leaving his team? Well, the Pacers didn't have a TV special telling the world how much Danny sucked and that they knew there was no way they could ever hope to win as long as he was around, therefore they were sending his talents to Hell.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    I just wonder if Danny's done. If the knee is still bothering him. The man has now made 60 million in his career. He's got a good head on his shoulders and could probably easily do something the rest of his career. I would much rather listen to Danny call a game than Reggie for example. Danny has always been the better speaker. His shot just didn't have lift which makes me think the knee never really came back.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    I'm not buying the statement that the Pacers organization "found ways to keep their longest tenured and most repected players", or at least, moreso than other franchises. These are examples only from my tenure as a Pacers fan, which began around 1985. We traded Chuck Person when he was Option 1B to Reggie Miller. We traded Herb Williams, who had played 8 years here (and only here) for Detlef, then traded Detlef for Derrick McKey. We traded Antonio Davis for a draft pick. We traded Dale Davis for JO. We traded JO for a draft pick. We traded Jalen Rose when he was option 1B for young players in a teardown move. If you think we haven't traded integral, long-term Pacers veterans for purely basketball reasons, you're viewing this team with rose-colored glasses.

    The other issue with your statement is that Tim Duncan is the best Power Forward who has ever lived and won 4 titles. And Tony Parker is probably going into the Hall of Fame at some point. It makes it a lot easier to keep those guys around when they're that good for that long. Oh, it also helps when those guys are still putting you within a putback of another NBA title. Danny isn't those guys in any recognizable way.

    I think Danny isn't done in the league, and I think he'll be better next year than he was this year, but we're all in THIS year.
    Yeah, in our NBA era, the only big names I can think of who started their careers from start to finish as Pacers were Miller and Smits. Miller was obviously a legend who put the franchise on the map and was able to go out on whatever terms he wanted. Smits played 12 years here, which is quite a bit, and was forced into retirement because of foot trouble. So who knows if we would have ultimately cut bait with him too had he tried to keep playing.

    Mark Jackson is another one. Didn't start his career here, but was traded once and then we let him walk after 2000.

    Danny was good, but he was never an "OMG, this guy has to retire as a Pacer no matter what" type of player.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Why does there have to be anyone to "blame"?

    Danny didn't die. We didn't rescind his contract. We literally weren't even going to trade him until Philly offered us two guys that are 5 years younger than him for basically nothing.

    There is no blame here. It took a perfect conspiracy of events for it to even happen. If the Sixers don't call us at 2:30PM and offer us two 25 year old contributors, one of which still has the potential to be a real big time player in this league, for basically an 8 PPG bench scorer and a second round pick, this wouldn't have even happened.

    Danny shouldn't be blamed. Larry shouldn't be blamed. The rest of the Pacers shouldn't be blamed. Business happened. That is what took place. Sometimes it sucks, but the reality is that I think this deal would have been made regardless of how Danny was playing the more I think about it. Even if Turner only gives us 10 PPG the rest of the season on decent shooting % and gives us some good rebounding and ball handling, he's still TWENTY FIVE. That I think is the real key here. Larry got significantly younger.

    Let's say that Danny had been playing alright 10 ppg 4 rpg on 45% shooting (being pretty generous here). We knew all along that if Lance bounced Danny was our backup plan, but then Philly calls and says hey you can have this backup plan to Lance that is 5 years younger than your current backup plan AND He's a much closer Lance replica than not just Danny than just about anyone in the NBA. I mean seriously, look at Turner's cons in Philly, doesn't shoot well of the dribble, over dribbles into bad decisions, streaky 3 point shooter, and then look at this pros, great ball handler, very good in the open court, finishes extremely well at the rim, did I not just basically describe Lance Stephenson? I really think Turner's age combined with the possibility of having to be the Lance backup plan this would have been a deal that got made regardless of how Danny was playing unless he was averaging like 18 per game, but he just wasn't and I think even the most positive Danny people, which I think actually includes me, would say that it is unlikely we ever see that sort of production from Danny again.

    We pretty much traded Granger for a guy who does a lot of things like Lance and was putting up numbers comparable to what Paul did last year minus 3 point shooting, who is 5 years younger than DG, I mean that is such a home run it is almost mind boggling, and we picked up another bench guy in Lavoy Allen who is NINE years younger than Scola and IMO will definitely replace him next year. Like I said earlier in the thread, damn Larry don't hurt 'em.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I just wonder if Danny's done. If the knee is still bothering him. The man has now made 60 million in his career. He's got a good head on his shoulders and could probably easily do something the rest of his career. I would much rather listen to Danny call a game than Reggie for example. Danny has always been the better speaker. His shot just didn't have lift which makes me think the knee never really came back.
    It seems that the knee has come back at least enough to allow him to play relatively pain free, but the injury obviously robbed him of quite a bit of explosiveness. He can't shoot, nor can he take it to the rack with any sort of jolt. He was never the fastest player, but he's obviously lost a lot. Losing just a little bit of physical explosiveness in this league can ruin a career.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I just wonder if Danny's done. If the knee is still bothering him. The man has now made 60 million in his career. He's got a good head on his shoulders and could probably easily do something the rest of his career. I would much rather listen to Danny call a game than Reggie for example. Danny has always been the better speaker. His shot just didn't have lift which makes me think the knee never really came back.
    I don't think Danny is done, it usually takes a season before they are back completely healthy and in basketball rhythm. Look at David west when he came back his first season off his injury. He was a lot better movement and health wise in season 2 after the injury. If Danny played a Dwayne wade style of game I'd say he's done, but he doesn't. His game is a below the rim style where shooting and posting up is where he can take advantage.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by clownskull View Post
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    i try to look at it this way:
    if we remove the emotional aspect of this situation and look at it from the business point of view, what do we see here?
    imagine for a moment that this wasn't granger but some injured 1-time all-star vet we picked over the summer on a 1 year deal. he hasn't been playing for quite a while but we got him to see what he could do for our bench. turned out it wasn't much. that guy we had coming off the bench couldn't even manage 36% shooting, had no explosiveness at all, couldn't attack the rim and finish either. and this guy was pulling down 14 million this season too.
    if you remove the emotional aspect of this situation, this trade looks pretty good and gives us a better shot at a title than if we stood by and stuck with him. i also doubt few if any would have any problem moving in another direction and would be more likely to agree the guy wasn't working out as hoped.
    i was bummed as well as a bit shocked when i learned about it but, we hired larry to do everything he could to put this team in the best position possible to win a title. and as we found out, that might even involve trading a popular and well-liked guy like danny.

    With holding judgment about a player who's had a little over 2mons of playing time, after sitting out nearly a season in a half, is a position I would give any player not just Danny.

    I don't know why that concept is really that questionable.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
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    This whole thing really made me respect the Spurs so much more, even though I respected them a whole lot already. You've gotta believe teams approached Pop with trade scenarios for Manu, TD or TP over the years, possibly hoping to add more veteran experience to a young locker room, yet Pop and the Spurs managed to keep those guys all these years. Instead of sacrificing them for younger talent to hasten the rebuild, they've found ways to build the pieces around them to stay competitive, even as those guys have aged considerably and even battled injuries and missed more than a few games. And it's not like they've found hidden stars. We're talking about Patty Mills and Marco Belinelli here. So, tip of my hat to Pop and Spurs for their continued success and loyalty to their core players.
    That's why they are one of the classiest franchises. If Danny gets bought out then I really wish that he'd land there.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    That's why they are one of the classiest franchises. If Danny gets bought out then I really wish that he'd land there.
    They are an outstanding franchise in every measurable way, no doubt about that, but I don't think it takes "class" to keep a core together that long. It's just the smart thing to do. They win a ton of games every year, go on playoff runs, and were a hair away from a championship last year. They've kept this core together not because of charity, but because it's continued to win. They are kind of like the Brady/Belichick Pats. It's been a while since they last won it all, but they continue to win a lot every year and always at least give themselves a chance.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I just wonder if Danny's done. If the knee is still bothering him. The man has now made 60 million in his career. He's got a good head on his shoulders and could probably easily do something the rest of his career. I would much rather listen to Danny call a game than Reggie for example. Danny has always been the better speaker. His shot just didn't have lift which makes me think the knee never really came back.
    Danny isn't done. He shot 40+% from 3 when he had 1 day of rest. He was just horrid when he had 0 days of rest. Considering that almost 1/3rd of his games played came on the second night of a back-to-back it quickly becomes obvious why his 3pt shooting was below average, and it isn't because he is done. If he gets bought out and goes to a contender he is going to cause trouble in the playoffs for his opponents as there are no back-to-backs.

    His inability to score consistently around the basket is more concerning, but it is still too early to make a final statement. At the very least I expect by next year Danny will be an elite spot up 3pt shooter.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    His 36% shooting and below average defense didn't hurt us at all? News to me.
    I'm not sure where you get the below average defense from? Danny played pretty good defense over these past 30 games if you ask me, and even made a good effort on the boards. Again What the heck are you judging him on when more times than in not over the past month this team started out way in the hole before Danny Granger even took the court.

    Sure poor shooting hurts, but I contend that a guy who shoots 8 times a game at 36% has much less negative impact than guys who was average similar poor shooting percentages taking 15-20 shots per game, while completely healthy and not hampered by conditioning.

    You people keep point to his shooting percentage, but dont look at the situation. He has horrible in back to back games. That a coaching issue.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    That's why they are one of the classiest franchises. If Danny gets bought out then I really wish that he'd land there.
    Just a devil's advocate, but if a buyout happens, I would like to see him in a Miami Heat uniform. Removing the hate glasses aside, they're one of the top organizations in the league with Pat Riley running the show there, and with the small-ball basketball they're playing, he can replace the role of Battier as a backup SF/PF. And at least the Pacers fans have a valid reason to hate him lol

    Well, it's a long shot since I think he'll probably go West Coast when there's an opportunity. But you never know.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    I hate everything about this trade except the fact that LB would have been a total fool to turn it down. The 76ers are the reason for this trade, IMO. Put yourself in Bird's position for a moment. You are out of the office, not really looking for a trade(if you believe LB) when you get a phone call offering you not one but two needed pieces for your team. Scola, who's obliviously hurting, needed a young, cheap backup to let him heal. Danny still needs more time to return to his peak, whatever that will now be, and we need a backup and possible replacement for Lance in case he gets injured. One phone call, 30 minutes to decide, both problems taken care of. What would you do if you were Bird? Had he not taken this deal, what would you do if you were Herb Simon. Granger fanboy, which I am, I would have said yes. I just hope Larry and Danny got to discuss this before it hit the news cycle.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Did Danny do anything wrong, or was it literally just everyone else's fault?
    Sure, he didn't shoot it well. But how much fault are you going to assign a guy who is coming off a 1.5 year long rehab? The trade was made because the entire team was faltering.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    I stand by it. I think we could have been on a winning streak and Danny could have been shooting in the 40s and I think Bird still pulls this trigger. The age is just such a big deal. As was getting a Scola replacement for free. I think lavoy will be a nice cheap siging this offseason to retain him for a couple years

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    While I understand your point(I hate seeing Granger go too), I have a question.

    Would you rather keep Granger or win a Championship? If you had to chose one or the other, which do you pick?
    Why not both? Does keeping Granger hinder us from winning one?

    Of course, the chances have risen on paper because by the current numbers, it's obvious that Turner wins, and plus age and health, it puts Danny in a disadvantage. But we still have yet to see how Turner can help this team win a championship this year. That will have to wait until we see him play the rest of the season and the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    So he wouldnt' have been traded if the team was winning?

    The sixers called the Pacers and if you believe Bird we were not actively shopping him so that doesn't follow your narrative.

    We all know Bird has longed wanted a scorer off the bench that can create his own shot since he first took office. We were interested in OJ Mayo, Barbosa, Crawford, so I think it makes much more sense to believe Danny was a victim of him being a poor 6th man on a championship level team than the team overall just playing poorly for a couple of months.
    If the team was winning at a high clip like the beginning of the season then you bet he wouldn't have been traded. Bird would have felt comfortable enough to let him keep working at it. Sixers present an opportunity to act and Bird took it. But it they were winning then the opportunity wouldn't have looked so appealing.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    I hate everything about this trade except the fact that LB would have been a total fool to turn it down. The 76ers are the reason for this trade, IMO. Put yourself in Bird's position for a moment. You are out of the office, not really looking for a trade(if you believe LB) when you get a phone call offering you not one but two needed pieces for your team. Scola, who's obliviously hurting, needed a young, cheap backup to let him heal. Danny still needs more time to return to his peak, whatever that will now be, and we need a backup and possible replacement for Lance in case he gets injured. One phone call, 30 minutes to decide, both problems taken care of. What would you do if you were Bird? Had he not taken this deal, what would you do if you were Herb Simon. Granger fanboy, which I am, I would have said yes. I just hope Larry and Danny got to discuss this before it hit the news cycle.
    Bird didnt' even talk to Vogel about it. Dude wasn't even in town to break the news to Danny in person. Probably skipped town just for that purpose.

    Its pretty easy to deduce that Bird got a GM boner, with idea that he could get Evan Turner. I'll support ET when he plays, but as a GM move you have to wonder about bringing in a guy who is a Turnover Machine, after you have already criticized the whole team about Turnovers,

    I just hope I don't have to give him the moniker Evan Turnover.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 02-24-2014 at 01:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    They are an outstanding franchise in every measurable way, no doubt about that, but I don't think it takes "class" to keep a core together that long. It's just the smart thing to do. They win a ton of games every year, go on playoff runs, and were a hair away from a championship last year. They've kept this core together not because of charity, but because it's continued to win. They are kind of like the Brady/Belichick Pats. It's been a while since they last won it all, but they continue to win a lot every year and always at least give themselves a chance.
    It does take a certain amount of class to do it. Some GMs are ruthless and will do everything they can in order to win a title. Mark Cuban is such an example. He went all-in in 2011, won a title and then dismantled his championship team in hopes of improving their future. RC Buford and the Spurs would not do that.
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    It's not rocket science to me --- Granger was a good guy, good player, good citizen, and he was also oft-injured and paid a lot of money. Someone offered a cheaper, healthier, younger, arguably more productive player for him and Bird did the right thing for this team and did it.

    He's not a bad guy, Granger isn't a bad guy. It's the NBA, it's the real world. You can't take this stuff personal. Wish people the best and move on. Granger did a lot of good for this team, but Bird has also, and Bird did a lot for Danny Granger. It's silly to hold animosity when everyone involved profited so much from each other.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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  45. #1025
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Granger traded to Philly

    Sitting here right now if Lance gets offered a huge contract and we just cannot re-sign him and we can sign Turner for a lot less then I think he is a pretty good replacement. My opinion might change over the course of the next three months. We'll see.

    I suppose the question is let's say we can get Turner for $8m a year and Lance for $10.5 per year, what do we do? Don't jump on the particular salary numbers, because I don't know what they might get, but my point is about the difference in salary. Might 2.5 million be enough to stay under the luxury tax? Or might it allow us to sign a rotation player better than what we already have? Is that enough to offset losing Lance?
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-24-2014 at 01:41 PM.

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