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Thread: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Do you not feel that if Sloan and Copeland were outperforming guys like Scola and Watson they would be in the game? Look, no team has three rotational PG's (unless one is a combo and plays some two). At the end of the day I trust Frank, a guy who watches practice everyday, to put the best players out there. I have no doubt that Frank would be playing Sloan and Copeland if they were outlaying Scola and Watson consistently. He did that with Ben Hansbrough over DJ Augustin for a time period a while back, so if the situation were to present itself again I am confident he would do the same thing.
    It's not about always playing your best players. It's about not wearing out your best players. Paul George is better than Rasual Butler, no one questions that. But in the last five minutes of a game is Paul George better if he's already played 30 minutes that night? Or is he better if he's only played 25 minutes so far that night?

    If we put Butler in for 5 minute in the first half, can we stay competitive? And if we do stay competitive, why not give him 5 more minutes in the second half. Or at least have that option.

    It just gives Frank more options if he's playing a deeper bench during the regular season. As it is, if he wants to change things up he has to bring in a cold player off the bench. And he's shown that he's not willing to do that. We just sort of keep floundering when things aren't going well because Frank is playing such a short rotation.

    If this were the playoffs then I'd have no problem with the rotations. But it's the loooong regular season, so we need a deeper rotation. 9 players isn't enough. Yeah, we can win a lot of games, but what if it catches up to us?

    People are saying we just need the all star break to rest everyone up. What if we don't get a rest period during the playoffs? The coach needs to manage the roster so that the players don't get worn out (physically or mentally) in the first place.

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Vogel is a lot of great things, but I don't think that anyone will ever accuse him of being a great developer of bench players. He sticks with his rigid rotations and makes his mind up pretty quickly as to whether he likes a player or not.

    I don't think that Green was ever going to work here. He is shining in Phoenix because they play the perfect style of basketball for him. Run and gun is his forte. Maybe he would have looked better this year since we have pushed the ball a bit more with PG and Lance, but I don't think that our overall style was ever going to suit him.

    Plumlee definitely stings. In hindsight, it would have been nice to at least give him a chance last year.

    Copeland is a perfect example of Vogel's rigid rotations being a bit frustrating at times. When Scola and Granger are off, I just wish that one time we would throw the guy out there in non-garbage minutes so that we could see what the guy has. He's a professional basketball player and you are paying him money, so why not at least give him a chance? It just makes no sense to me. It's not as if Copeland got some quality minutes this season and blew it. No, he's really had no chance at all. I was never even a big fan of signing him, but since he's on the roster I would at least like to see what he has to offer. My prediction right now is that he will light us up for 25 points in a different uniform next season. That seems to be par for the course for the bench players who don't do anything here.
    To be fair, developing bench players is not Vogel's job at this point in time. The team is supposed to win now.

    Though I do sometimes wonder why Cope has gotten such a small chance. Especially when we rolled out Rasual, Solomon, and OJ at different times. Maybe Cope just looks that bad in practice.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    To be fair, developing bench players is not Vogel's job at this point in time. The team is supposed to win now.

    Though I do sometimes wonder why Cope has gotten such a small chance. Especially when we rolled out Rasual, Solomon, and OJ at different times. Maybe Cope just looks that bad in practice.

    Oh I definitely agree that his job isn't to develop scrub players. We're playing to win every game right now. But I definitely think that he should give a guy like Cope a chance when Scola or Granger aren't working. As you say, even Rasual, Solomon, and OJ have all gotten chances. Does Cope honestly look that bad in practice? It's possible, but it's a bit hard to believe considering he looked competent with the Knicks last year, which is why we signed him.

  5. #29

    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Vogel is a lot of great things, but I don't think that anyone will ever accuse him of being a great developer of bench players. He sticks with his rigid rotations and makes his mind up pretty quickly as to whether he likes a player or not.

    I don't think that Green was ever going to work here. He is shining in Phoenix because they play the perfect style of basketball for him. Run and gun is his forte. Maybe he would have looked better this year since we have pushed the ball a bit more with PG and Lance, but I don't think that our overall style was ever going to suit him.

    Plumlee definitely stings. In hindsight, it would have been nice to at least give him a chance last year.

    Copeland is a perfect example of Vogel's rigid rotations being a bit frustrating at times. When Scola and Granger are off, I just wish that one time we would throw the guy out there in non-garbage minutes so that we could see what the guy has. He's a professional basketball player and you are paying him money, so why not at least give him a chance? It just makes no sense to me. It's not as if Copeland got some quality minutes this season and blew it. No, he's really had no chance at all. I was never even a big fan of signing him, but since he's on the roster I would at least like to see what he has to offer. My prediction right now is that he will light us up for 25 points in a different uniform next season. That seems to be par for the course for the bench players who don't do anything here.



    I think they kept Cope on the bench because Danny was coming back. Now that they know Danny isn't gonna give us much, perhaps if Granger is traded we'll see Cope. This seems to be where things are headed. They just needed to confirm that Danny's offensive skills are shot.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    He just said that because you were nitpicking his post. Paul is clearly "in shape" but he IS tired. His play has been sloppy and he's settling for long jump shots. Is it a huge problem? No, not at all. But I hope Vogel gets him more rest so he's fresh when it counts.

    EDIT: Since when do you need to have a point on this board? Trader Joe has 28k posts and at least 26k of them have no point.
    I don't know what you mean by "that."

    If you mean him pointing out my typo, then I really don't care about it. Pointing out my typing mistakes isn't going to hurt my feelings.

    If you mean his out of shape comment, I hadn't even said anything yet.

    I understand he was being sarcastic, but I'd image there's a little truth to that feeling. People come up with crazy things to knock players.
    Last edited by Since86; 02-13-2014 at 05:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
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    If this were the playoffs then I'd have no problem with the rotations. But it's the loooong regular season, so we need a deeper rotation. 9 players isn't enough. Yeah, we can win a lot of games, but what if it catches up to us?

    People are saying we just need the all star break to rest everyone up. What if we don't get a rest period during the playoffs? The coach needs to manage the roster so that the players don't get worn out (physically or mentally) in the first place.

    The upside is they get a lot more resting days during the playoffs, and your players have a crystal clear picture of what their roles are.

    There are times I wish he'd just leave PG on the bench, instead of bringing him back in for the last 3mins, but all-in-all they're playing the amount of minutes I'd expect. I did think give Scola more minutes, but not the way he's shot the past month.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    It's one thing to say that the players are tired, it's another to draw the conclusion that the bench players should play more.

    As already shown, the Pacer starters don't play heavy minutes. Why then, do they look so tired? My theory - from day one, the team has been putting pressure on itself to get the #1 seed. They are much more focused on winning every single regular season game, than say a team like the Heat. That has to be mentally exhausting.

    In a way, this idea is even more troubling. What if the Pacers are so fixated on regular season record that they won't have anything left in the tank come playoff time? So I'd hope they'll take their well-earned rest, and having learned their limits in the first half of the season, play with a more sustainable level of intensity in the second half.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    I will agree with the idea that our players appear too tired at times. Tiredness is natural throughout an NBA season. It really is a grind. But I also feel that our style of play is quite taxing. The way that we emphasize physicality on both ends of the court is bound to leave our players bruised and completely out of energy after a game.

    Frank has decided on a 9-man rotation and I believe that it would be good for the team if he were to open it up a bit. We will still go back to that 9-man rotation in the playoffs (and probably in the last month of the season as well) but we have to use our depth a bit more.

    My problem isn't even with the minutes of the starters. I think that the 9-man rotation is harder to the bench than it is to the starters. Our bench has the following offensive options:

    1) Scola Pick and Pop (with some rare Pick and Roll mixed in)
    2) Danny spot-up 3 and mid-range J.
    3) CJ spot-up 3 and mid-range J.
    4) Danny post-up.

    The other option is whoever of the starters is out there with the bench (usually it's Lance). What happens when all of those options fail? Then the starter that is in with them is forced to try to create something out of nothing. The only option of those 4 that has been consistent lately has been Danny's post-ups. That's why our bench is struggling. Our shooters aren't hitting and that increases the responsibilities of the starters that are out there with them.

    I sincerely believe that it would help us a lot if Frank used Butler and Copeland a bit more and threw them out there as extra offensive options when our shooters aren't hitting.
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    I do agree with the OP in that we're at least playing Lance and Paul too much. I'm not saying to shave them a lot but we have depth and we should use it. I'd like to see Paul at around 33 minutes and Lance somewhat less then that. I do see fatigue as a factor in Paul's recent poor shooting and in turnovers from both players. Just the added shot opportunities for our bench and big men would be a huge plus.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Here is a breakdown of the # of minutes for the Team:

    PG24
    2012-2013 Overall - 38.3 mpg
    2012-2013 Post ASB - 38.9 mpg
    2013-2014 Overall - 36.2 mpg
    - Plays about 2 LESS minutes this season on average compared to last season

    GH
    2012-2013 Overall - 35.2 mpg
    2012-2013 Post ASB - 34.9 mpg
    2013-2014 Overall - 31.3 mpg
    - Plays about 3 to 4 LESS minutes this season on average compared to last season

    West
    2012-2013 Overall - 34.0 mpg
    2012-2013 Post ASB - 34.4 mpg
    2013-2014 Overall - 30.2 mpg
    - Plays about 4 LESS minutes this season on average compared to last season

    Stephenson
    2012-2013 Overall - 30.4 mpg
    2012-2013 Post ASB - 32.1 mpg
    2013-2014 Overall - 35.4 mpg
    - Plays about 4 to 5 MORE minutes this season on average compared to last season


    Hibbert
    2012-2013 Overall - 30.2 mpg
    2012-2013 Post ASB - 32.2 mpg
    2013-2014 Overall - 30.6 mpg
    - Plays about the same minutes this season on average compared to last season

    Mahinmi
    2012-2013 Overall - 15.0 mpg
    2012-2013 Post ASB - 13.0 mpg
    2013-2014 Overall - 16.2 mpg
    - Plays about 1 to 3 MORE minutes this season on average compared to last season

    Backup PF
    2012-2013 Overall - 16.1 mpg ( Hansbrough )
    2012-2013 Post ASB - 16.3 mpg ( Hansbrough )
    2013-2014 Overall - 17.6 mpg ( Scola )
    - Plays about 1 MORE minute this season on average compared to last season

    Backup PG
    2012-2013 Overall - 16.2 mpg ( Augustine )
    2012-2013 Post ASB - 16.3 mpg ( Augustine )
    2013-2014 Overall - 18.7 mpg ( Watson )
    - Plays about 2 to 3 MORE minutes this season on average compared to last season

    1st Wing off the Bench
    2013-2014 Overall - 22.7 mpg ( Granger )

    NOTE
    - I included Post-ASB minutes since Vogel likely settles on a more set rotation in the 2nd half of the season compared to the 1st half when he was more likely to "experiment with lineups".
    - I didn't include the # of minutes that came from the "1st Wing off the bench" for this season compared to last since last season was a hodge-podge of Wing Players.....but I think that it's safe to say that Granger has played more as the "1st Wing off the bench" compared to whoever did that last season.
    [/COLOR]


    So, what does this high level breakdown tell us? I guess that everyone's interpretation will be different.

    IMHO....it tells me that Vogel is using the Backup Players more this season compared to last at all positions as you can see that the Starters ( minus Lance who clearly has a bigger role on the Team ) has had their minutes reduced ( on average ) between 2 to 5 mpg. Obviously, the quality of the bench Players has improved significantly ( despite how the bench has been doing recently ) from this season compared to last season. To be fair....despite the improvement in the bench....I still think that Vogel does lean more on the Starters than I wish he would.

    My preference....at least for the regular season ( cuz the Playoffs are a whole different story )...I would like to see Vogel use CJ, Granger, Scola and whoever is Hibbert's Backup ( whether it be Bynum or Mahinmi ) get a little more boost in minutes. By giving them each 2.5 mpg.....this would allow Vogel to reduce PG24 and Lance minutes down to 33+ mpg with West and Hibbert's minutes to a more tolerable 28 mpg ( for two Big Men ).

    I know that the offense may become more stagnant and the defense may falter a little......but reducing their mpg by 3 minutes may reduce the "wear and tear" of the regular season so that the both of them aren't as worn out as we get into the Playoffs. I am sure that many of you would question why I'd suggest reducing the minutes of all the Starters since the dropoff between the Starters and Bench Players varies from "not much of a dropoff" on good nights to "a significant dropoff" on really bad nights. I think that the Team is good enough to beat at least 1/2 of the Teams in the NBA even if we reduced the Starters minutes. But I also follow the model that the Spurs have used where they rely more on their bench Players as the Regular Season progresses so that their Starters aren't burnt out by the Playoffs. Of course, the difference is in the age of the Pacers compared to the Spurs....but I think that the concept still applies, I do not want to heavily rely upon the Starters for the regular season at the cost of health/conditioning during the Playoffs.

    In other words.....during the regular season....as doctor-h suggests.....trust the bench a little more so that the Starters can be more rested for the Playoffs when we fully expect Vogel to go with a tighter rotation.
    Last edited by CableKC; 02-13-2014 at 11:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I will agree with the idea that our players appear too tired at times. Tiredness is natural throughout an NBA season. It really is a grind. But I also feel that our style of play is quite taxing. The way that we emphasize physicality on both ends of the court is bound to leave our players bruised and completely out of energy after a game.

    Frank has decided on a 9-man rotation and I believe that it would be good for the team if he were to open it up a bit. We will still go back to that 9-man rotation in the playoffs (and probably in the last month of the season as well) but we have to use our depth a bit more.

    My problem isn't even with the minutes of the starters. I think that the 9-man rotation is harder to the bench than it is to the starters. Our bench has the following offensive options:

    1) Scola Pick and Pop (with some rare Pick and Roll mixed in)
    2) Danny spot-up 3 and mid-range J.
    3) CJ spot-up 3 and mid-range J.
    4) Danny post-up.

    The other option is whoever of the starters is out there with the bench (usually it's Lance). What happens when all of those options fail? Then the starter that is in with them is forced to try to create something out of nothing. The only option of those 4 that has been consistent lately has been Danny's post-ups. That's why our bench is struggling. Our shooters aren't hitting and that increases the responsibilities of the starters that are out there with them.

    I sincerely believe that it would help us a lot if Frank used Butler and Copeland a bit more and threw them out there as extra offensive options when our shooters aren't hitting.
    The good thing about our roster is that I don't see how Vogel can tighten the rotation any smaller than the 9-man rotation that we see now. I totally agree with you....I would really hope that after the ASB that he does bump up the minutes ( even if it is by 2+ mpg for CJ/Granger/Scola/Bynum )....I think that it would make a big difference. To me, the effect is two-fold.....give the Starters more rest.....and IMHO what's more important, get the 2nd Unit more minutes to build chemistry and get more mileage on the court so that they are ready for the Playoffs.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    I don't see the minutes our players are playing as a problem in terms of conditioning. Where I do see a problem is when Paul or Lance are being dumbasses, but Frank won't pull them (it is unacceptable that Lance wasn't pulled after that idiotic foul, you just can't afford that kind of dumbass play in that situation, the best way to send that message is to put in someone else, and luckily for us we have players who we can trust in that situation sitting on our bench). Or when one of our bench players is playing especially well he doesn't really give them extra time. I also think if a bench player is playing particularly bad, like Scola has been recently, or the match-up suggests that Sloan's or Cope's skills might be of use give them a chance for like 5 minutes.

    Also I have come to the conclusion that Vogel isn't good at designing an offensive system at this point in his career. He has done a brilliant job designing a defensive system that takes advantage of the players' skills, but has done a terrible job taking advantage of their offensive skills. Our team is overflowing with offensive talent, yet we are at best an average offensive team.

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  17. #38

    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Just for comparisons sake, Durant played 42 minutes tonight. But OKC played 11 players. The least amount of time any of them played was 5 minutes. I didn't see the game, but it was close so I assume there wasn't any "garbage time" minutes. It looks like it's normal for them to play 10 or 11 players in competitive games.

    I'd like to see the Pacers try that approach during the regular season.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I don't see the minutes our players are playing as a problem in terms of conditioning. Where I do see a problem is when Paul or Lance are being dumbasses, but Frank won't pull them (it is unacceptable that Lance wasn't pulled after that idiotic foul, you just can't afford that kind of dumbass play in that situation, the best way to send that message is to put in someone else, and luckily for us we have players who we can trust in that situation sitting on our bench). Or when one of our bench players is playing especially well he doesn't really give them extra time. I also think if a bench player is playing particularly bad, like Scola has been recently, or the match-up suggests that Sloan's or Cope's skills might be of use give them a chance for like 5 minutes.

    Also I have come to the conclusion that Vogel isn't good at designing an offensive system at this point in his career. He has done a brilliant job designing a defensive system that takes advantage of the players' skills, but has done a terrible job taking advantage of their offensive skills. Our team is overflowing with offensive talent, yet we are at best an average offensive team.
    Isn't another way to reduce these turnovers ( specifically by Lance and PG24 ) and even ( as you suggest ) the dumbass-ery of certain Players to simply reduce the amount of time that they spend on the court ( even if it is by a little )?
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Build what bench? They come in and lose leads starters build, Frank goes back to starters. Starters dont play well, they come in and follow the lead and play just as bad. There is games where they produce but recently they have been trash. Danny, Scola and CJ come in the game its like they agree on "Lets all shoot 2 of 7 tonight"

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    I don't think comparing to last years bench or comparing Paul to KD is a good example. Last years bench goes down as the worst bench I can ever recall a Pacers team having and last year we overplayed Paul. This year we have the talent and depth on our bench and we should use it and keep our starters from wearing down. It's really not every starter anyway, it's Lance and Paul and only by a few minutes. However, those few minutes could mean that someone else gets a shot and a chance to get it going. It also means that our starting wings might have a little more energy to put on defense where they've lacked lately. Comparing anyone to KD is nuts. Comparing anyone to KD is nuts, I wish Paul was on that level but he isn't yet and if what OKC is doing now will be good for the long run.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    To be fair, developing bench players is not Vogel's job at this point in time. The team is supposed to win now.

    Though I do sometimes wonder why Cope has gotten such a small chance. Especially when we rolled out Rasual, Solomon, and OJ at different times. Maybe Cope just looks that bad in practice.
    Cope is not a real wing. He's seen as a PF.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Also I have come to the conclusion that Vogel isn't good at designing an offensive system at this point in his career. He has done a brilliant job designing a defensive system that takes advantage of the players' skills, but has done a terrible job taking advantage of their offensive skills. Our team is overflowing with offensive talent, yet we are at best an average offensive team.
    There is absolutely zero reason for us NOT to go to D.West in the high post or in a pick and pop scenario with Hill early in the game. Establish something, and THEN allow PG and Lance to do their Iso thing. At times last year it seemed that we ran a variation of the triangle, and we seemed to run that rather well. Now we strictly play an ISO game, and post up every now and then.

    Our offense is at it's best when our bigs are involved, and our wings play off of them. Not the other way around.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Powww View Post
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    Build what bench? They come in and lose leads starters build, Frank goes back to starters. Starters dont play well, they come in and follow the lead and play just as bad. There is games where they produce but recently they have been trash. Danny, Scola and CJ come in the game its like they agree on "Lets all shoot 2 of 7 tonight"
    But you have to wonder. It has been three years now and our bench is always bad and yet this is the third set of players we have had on the bench. At what point do we look at how they are being used. At what point do we question the coach on this issue.

    Carlisle IMO is the best coach in the NBA at building a bench. He's done it almost every place he's been. How does he do it?

    Having said all of this, I honestly don't think Frank is bad a building a bench. I don't blame him (although I think he could be better) I think the starters here are so good, the bench doesn't have a chance to devlope. Now is that the coaches fault? probably not

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    To be fair, developing bench players is not Vogel's job at this point in time. The team is supposed to win now.

    Though I do sometimes wonder why Cope has gotten such a small chance. Especially when we rolled out Rasual, Solomon, and OJ at different times. Maybe Cope just looks that bad in practice.
    It could also be that Vogel doesn't want to appear to be speaking out of both sides of his mouth. This is supposed to be a defense-oriented team, that sacrifices everything to be elite defensively. If you play a guy like Cope, who doesn't appear to have the desire to be a good defensive player, then other players may decide that defense isn't as high a priority as Vogel is preaching. Look at Scola, for instance. He will never be mistaken for a great defensive big, but he puts maximum effort into the defensive end, and you can see it. I don't think you can say the same about Scola. The last thing you want is Lance deciding that if Cope gets to play and put 80% effort into defense, then so should he.

    I'm not saying this is the reason, but it could be a reason.

  29. #46
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    But you have to wonder. It has been three years now and our bench is always bad and yet this is the third set of players we have had on the bench. At what point do we look at how they are being used. At what point do we question the coach on this issue.

    Carlisle IMO is the best coach in the NBA at building a bench. He's done it almost every place he's been. How does he do it?

    Having said all of this, I honestly don't think Frank is bad a building a bench. I don't blame him (although I think he could be better) I think the starters here are so good, the bench doesn't have a chance to devlope. Now is that the coaches fault? probably not
    Is this really true? Or does it only seem that way because our starting unit under Vogel is so good? Honest question, because I've found it very hard to quantify bench performance. Is a lineup of 4 starters + 1 sub a bench unit? Do you look at lineups with 5 subs only? Etc. How do we say one team's bench is better than another's? I'd be interested if someone has found a quantifiable way of looking at bench performance.

    Someone posted some bench stats in another thread, but the numbers looked too simplistic to me. In particular it only mentioned scoring - ideally we should have numbers for both how many points the bench scored and how many they gave up while they were in. And of course we need to agree on what the "bench" is, e.g. is Lance + 4 subs part of the bench?

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  31. #47
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Man I dont know what game you watch but its like Vogel never plays the starters enough. Pg would be having a great 1st qtr and you wouldnt see him again for more than half of the 2nd qtr. Youre argument is invalid
    Impossible Is Nothing

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  33. #48
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Romsey31 View Post
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    Man I dont know what game you watch but its like Vogel never plays the starters enough. Pg would be having a great 1st qtr and you wouldnt see him again for more than half of the 2nd qtr. Youre argument is invalid
    PG plays 36mpg. How much more do you want him to play? PG plays the entire first quarter. Thats why he sits for awhile in the second. I don't want PG to play any more than 36mpg really. I'd rather take him out with a couple minutes left in the first and sub him in earlier in the second. Same with Hibbert.

    I do think Frank needs to ride the hot hand a little bit more, like we did with West the other night. He rarely does that with any player. Like the other night when Granger was playing well while Lance and PG weren't. Give Danny more minutes. Earlier in the season when Scola was hitting shots, he would get pulled out too.

    Frank is definitely too stubborn on his rotations. And some games is really hurts us.

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  35. #49
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    I would like to see Vogel integrate Copeland more into the rotation in the second half, if only to keep West and Scola fresh for the playoffs. What I'm hoping really happens is that the Pacers can get a substantial lead on the Heat, and the Pacers can give our starters a week or two of resting up a bit before the playoffs.

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