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Thread: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

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    Default Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Vogel has run his starters in the ground. They are a young team and shouldn't look anywhere close to what they looked like against Dallas. Dallas is an old team on a back to back and we were the tired ones at home. Why wouldn't you let Butler have some minutes when the rest of the team can't throw it in the ocean. Maybe Copeland also. He still has some of the Jim O'Brien influence in him with his unwillingness to trust and develope a bench. That is why the bench struggles this year and why they struggled last year. It is obvious it wasn't the players. Plumlee, Green and Augustine have all played well in different situations. What do you have to lose with Butler, he just had another double figure game and is shooting a very high percentage, reward the guy with some trust for always being ready. No he rewarded PG with more minutes so he could force up bad shot after bad shot. Also what is wrong with Hibbert?

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Last year mpg -> This year mpg

    Paul George 37.6 -> 36.2
    Roy Hibbert 28.7 -> 30.6
    David West 33.4 -> 30.2
    Lance Stephenson 29.2 -> 35.4
    George Hill 34.5 -> 31.3

    Only Lance is up by a lot, and as a 23 year old ball of energy I guess he could take the minutes. Paul George's minutes by the way, are down from last year. Go find something else to blame.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Oh and for reference, Durant is averaging 38.1 mpg and LeBron is at 37.4 mpg, as compared to Paul "being run to the ground" George.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    I don't think Vogel runs the starters into the ground at all. But I don't think one of Vogel's strengths as a coach is building a bench.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Oh and for reference, Durant is averaging 38.1 mpg and LeBron is at 37.4 mpg, as compared to Paul "being run to the ground" George.
    OK then they are just out of shape. How's that

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Our starters don't play too many minutes. But they are tired. And that doesn't mean the starters should play less. The NBA is a grind, whether the starters play 34 or 30 or 28 minutes they are going to get worn out especially mentally and I think right now mentally is where they are worn out.

    The break is at a good time.

    Another thing to remember, it used to be that the Allstar break was a week or two earlier, but with the NFL pushing their season back a week or two, the NBA Allstar game gets pushed back a week or two. So the time between game 1 and the allstar break is longer than it was 3 or more years ago. Plus this season started slightly earlier this season.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    OK then they are just out of shape. How's that
    Yeah, a guy spends his offseason running mountaints, and instead of just thinking that an 82 game season is taxing, we'll just run with he's out of shape.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yeah, a guy spends his offseason running mountaints, and instead of just thinking that an 82 game season is taxing, we'll just run with he's out of shape.
    Nobody singled out any one player, what are you talking about. Oh and what is a mountaints and who ran it

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    Nobody singled out any one player, what are you talking about. Oh and what is a mountaints and who ran it
    Oh, man, you got him good.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Maybe we could get Grimp to work out a trade for Vogel? Maybe we could go back to the 5 players at a time rotation that EVERYONE loved last season? Can we afford to sit a player for an entire game at a time like SAS does from time to time.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Our starters don't play too many minutes. But they are tired. And that doesn't mean the starters should play less. The NBA is a grind, whether the starters play 34 or 30 or 28 minutes they are going to get worn out especially mentally and I think right now mentally is where they are worn out.

    The break is at a good time.

    Another thing to remember, it used to be that the Allstar break was a week or two earlier, but with the NFL pushing their season back a week or two, the NBA Allstar game gets pushed back a week or two. So the time between game 1 and the allstar break is longer than it was 3 or more years ago. Plus this season started slightly earlier this season.
    What I am trying to say is that in a particular game when the players energy level is low and they obviously just don't have it that night, why not go to the bench and see if someone could give you a lift. They shot the ball very poorly against Dallas so why not give one of your best shooters some time in that game. To me to continue with what is obviously not working is insane. If a player is struggling mentally and physically in a game give him a break. All Paul and Lance did in that game was try to force things.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't think Vogel runs the starters into the ground at all. But I don't think one of Vogel's strengths as a coach is building a bench.
    And you can't build a bench when you don't trust them. What kind of message do you send them?

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  21. #13

    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Oh and for reference, Durant is averaging 38.1 mpg and LeBron is at 37.4 mpg, as compared to Paul "being run to the ground" George.
    You could run a player in the ground not because of the minutes he is playing but by the load he is carrying when he is on the floor. If you ask him to do more than he is capable of or carry a load he cannot handle. They just looked very tired to me the last few games because of the energy level and the way they shot the ball, turnovers and mentally their focus is not there.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    Nobody singled out any one player, what are you talking about. Oh and what is a mountaints and who ran it
    The proper term would be "No one" not "Nobody."
    But come on man, the idea that these guys aren't in shape is just nuts. Lance is a gym rat, Roy/West are known for their hard offseason workouts. Paul runs mountains. Scola was playing FIBA over the summer. The list goes on and on. It's a LOOOOOOONG season.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Was I the only one expecting this thread to be typed in all green?

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Oh and for reference, Durant is averaging 38.1 mpg and LeBron is at 37.4 mpg, as compared to Paul "being run to the ground" George.
    I did a little analysis last week. Just for myself. I looked at the top 3 or 4 teams in each conference. Counted the number of players above 1500 minutes, above 1300 (but under 1500), above 1100 (but under 1300) etc. The Pacer and Portland seemed to have the worst distribution of minutes. Both had 5 players over 1500. The Pacers didn't have anyone in the next three slots (>1300, >1100, >900).

    It really looked to me like our minutes distribution was worse than other teams (other than Portland). But I couldn't convince myself that it meant anything. And we had the least number of players in the slots that I was counting. Right now we only have 8 players above 700 minutes, other teams had more.

    I looked at total minutes because it weeded out players that averaged high minutes but missed a lot of games.

    I figured some people would say "it's not that the Pacers have poor minute distribution, it's that they're healthy!" And maybe that's true. But it still worries me.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    So let me see, Paul ain't tired cause he ran some mountains last summer. And because Lebron and Durant play more minutes. And because Paul played more last year. Ok got it.

    Some of the crap on this board man.........makes me understand why the knowledgeable posters pretty much all wind up disappearing.

    Do you all realize that Slick Leonard, who has been around basketball longer than most of us have been alive and has been sitting courtside for like 50 years, said pretty much the exact same thing in several games recently? Would you sit there and argue with Slick Leonard and tell him that he's ridiculous cause Paul George ran some mountains last summer?

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
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    I did a little analysis last week. Just for myself. I looked at the top 3 or 4 teams in each conference. Counted the number of players above 1500 minutes, above 1300 (but under 1500), above 1100 (but under 1300) etc. The Pacer and Portland seemed to have the worst distribution of minutes. Both had 5 players over 1500. The Pacers didn't have anyone in the next three slots (>1300, >1100, >900).

    It really looked to me like our minutes distribution was worse than other teams (other than Portland). But I couldn't convince myself that it meant anything. And we had the least number of players in the slots that I was counting. Right now we only have 8 players above 700 minutes, other teams had more.

    I looked at total minutes because it weeded out players that averaged high minutes but missed a lot of games.

    I figured some people would say "it's not that the Pacers have poor minute distribution, it's that they're healthy!" And maybe that's true. But it still worries me.
    Vogel is a great young coach but sometimes we forget that he doesn't have much experience as a head coach on ANY level of basketball. He is still learning and one thing he really needs to work on is knowing when to sprinkle in guys like Copeland, Butler and even Donald Sloan. Those players are very useful throughout a long season if you know how to use them. Popovich is a master of this.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Do you not feel that if Sloan and Copeland were outperforming guys like Scola and Watson they would be in the game? Look, no team has three rotational PG's (unless one is a combo and plays some two). At the end of the day I trust Frank, a guy who watches practice everyday, to put the best players out there. I have no doubt that Frank would be playing Sloan and Copeland if they were outlaying Scola and Watson consistently. He did that with Ben Hansbrough over DJ Augustin for a time period a while back, so if the situation were to present itself again I am confident he would do the same thing.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    So let me see, Paul ain't tired cause he ran some mountains last summer. And because Lebron and Durant play more minutes. And because Paul played more last year. Ok got it.
    What? It was about the charge of them being out of shape. Just because a player is tired, doesn't mean they're out of shape. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    I don't see the point in trying to say a player is out of shape, it's just a put down with nothing of substance to back it up with. Might as well say they've been out partying all night. The point of saying something like that is to put a negative spin towards a player and their attitude/professionalism.
    Last edited by Since86; 02-13-2014 at 04:52 PM.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  31. #21

    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    Maybe we could get Grimp to work out a trade for Vogel? Maybe we could go back to the 5 players at a time rotation that EVERYONE loved last season? Can we afford to sit a player for an entire game at a time like SAS does from time to time.

    Indy wants a 10 man rotation. Just depends on what Larry does at the deadline. If he nets a replacement for Granger plus a good back up for Lance, then that's a bench you can trust.

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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    I didn't mean he should replace Watson with Sloan or Scola with Copeland at all, but out of 82 games there are many opportunities to get them minutes, if for any other reason, than to rest somebody else. Augustin was playing horribly when he let Hansbrough have a shot, and to me thats a different situation. Donald Sloan is a much better player than Hansbrough and can log a few minutes without killing us, same with Copeland. Those guys are both an injury away from being apart of the rotation on a nightly basis and they need to play when the opportunity presents itself so they aren't totally unprepared for it, if it happens.

    I have seen many blowouts this year where Vogel has had the starters playing down to the final moments, and on a night like last night he could of given Butler an opportunity to give us a lift. It's all based on feel, and I think he has missed some opportunities that's all. Why bring in Copeland if you don't think he can play in a pinch at least? Why not trust a veteran like Rasual last night, especially when he just gave you double figures the game before? I just don't understand that. We shouldn't lose a game at home to a team that shoots under 40 percent, EVER. We did because our offense was sloppy and our shot selection was atrocious. Both are signs of fatigue.

    PG is in his first year of trying to be the main focal point of our offense, and we should not under estimate the toll it's taken on him. He goes hard on defense and it's not unreasonable for him to be fatigued. That goes for Lance too, neither are conditioned for their roles yet. Guys like Lebron and Durant have been carrying their respective loads for 5+ years now, so they are better conditioned than our 24 year olds.

    But some on this board just want to point out the flaws in a post and don't even consider the point being made. If George Hill doesn't have a career night against Portland, we lose 3 in a row, with 2 of those games at home. That is concerning for a team winning 80% of their games.

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    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    I've seen a lot of great things on here. Paul George not being in shape though has to be one of the best.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    What? It was about the charge of them being out of shape. Just because a player is tired, doesn't mean they're out of shape. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    I don't see the point in trying to say a player is out of shape, it's just a put down with nothing of substance to back it up with. Might as well say they've been out partying all night. The point of saying something like that is to put a negative spin towards a player and their attitude/professionalism.
    He just said that because you were nitpicking his post. Paul is clearly "in shape" but he IS tired. His play has been sloppy and he's settling for long jump shots. Is it a huge problem? No, not at all. But I hope Vogel gets him more rest so he's fresh when it counts.

    EDIT: Since when do you need to have a point on this board? Trader Joe has 28k posts and at least 26k of them have no point.
    Last edited by Taterhead; 02-13-2014 at 05:01 PM.

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    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel trust your bench just a little please!

    Vogel is a lot of great things, but I don't think that anyone will ever accuse him of being a great developer of bench players. He sticks with his rigid rotations and makes his mind up pretty quickly as to whether he likes a player or not.

    I don't think that Green was ever going to work here. He is shining in Phoenix because they play the perfect style of basketball for him. Run and gun is his forte. Maybe he would have looked better this year since we have pushed the ball a bit more with PG and Lance, but I don't think that our overall style was ever going to suit him.

    Plumlee definitely stings. In hindsight, it would have been nice to at least give him a chance last year.

    Copeland is a perfect example of Vogel's rigid rotations being a bit frustrating at times. When Scola and Granger are off, I just wish that one time we would throw the guy out there in non-garbage minutes so that we could see what the guy has. He's a professional basketball player and you are paying him money, so why not at least give him a chance? It just makes no sense to me. It's not as if Copeland got some quality minutes this season and blew it. No, he's really had no chance at all. I was never even a big fan of signing him, but since he's on the roster I would at least like to see what he has to offer. My prediction right now is that he will light us up for 25 points in a different uniform next season. That seems to be par for the course for the bench players who don't do anything here.

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